UFOs?

Phil Ayesho

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No, no they have not. It's illuminating that you peddle misinformation as part of your argument (either you are being intentionally dishonest, or someone else was when they told you that non-fact and you never bothered to check if it was true or not).

Quite right.

mathematics is a fun parlor game that can be used to create all kinds of nonsensical fantasies... The fact that you can Invent a math in which 11 dimensions works out on paper has no bearing whatsoever on reality.

e.g. there are math models that support 23 dimensions... and CDT, which seems to explain reality with only the 3 we can actually verify.

Aerodynamic theorems quantify a "force" called 'lift', which in fact does not exist, but because the equations were worked out from actual observed behavior, they still work, even if they create an imaginary force and do not actually describe the reality of why wings work.

At present... there is not one iota of evidence that there exist ANY dimensions other than the three we perceive.

(einstein characterized time as a fourth dimension... but, in fact, it is not a dimension because we can not actually move about in that dimension. The fact that the present changes and that we can, presently, recall prior states creates the illusion of time as a dimension... but that does not make it real, nor fantasies of time travel possible )


We have the ability to IMAGINE things that do not exist and can not exist.
We create fictional narrative... but that is a fancy term for LYING.

That we can SUPPOSE something fantastical does NOT make it even remotely more likely to be true.

Evidence rules. Everything else is mere supposition.

As far as we can tell, the universe makes sense... it follows certain causal probabilities.


If you posit intelligent life forms on another world... then you are positing something we KNOW to have happened here, on Earth.

And that means that ALL the causal forces that shaped US are likely to be the same causal forces needed to shape another form of intelligent life.

Just the notion that they would build spaceships and be curious to see other worlds is already a HUGE qualification of the KIND of creatures they might be and how they might have evolved.

It makes them LIKE US in the most critical ways.
And that means their actions would make sense to us.

Its important to have an open mind, sure... but it is essential that you have a bouncer at the door to your brain who requires i.d. in the form of EVIDENCE.

Otherwise, any old trash can just saunter right in...
 

b.c.

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You mean you don't support logic.

Okay... but then, the rest of us will not be looking to you to contribute one iota to the progress of science and understanding.

Ignorance is not really a "position"... its just plain lack of accurate
knowledge.

To Wit:
As a matter of fact... It was LOGIC that determined the world was round. The Greeks not only figured that out, they fairly accurately calculated its true circumference.
They figured this out around 400 BC... and the notion that people continued to believe the world was flat up until Columbus is nothing but ignorant myth.
No LEARNED person thought the world was flat.

You make the same ignorant mistake that many do in trying to believe in nonsense, and that is to imagine that, prior to our discovery of a host of new ideas, insights and understandings, that there was 'similarly' NO EVIDENCE as there is for such malarky as flying saucers, bigfeet, and astrology.

Nothing could be further from the truth.
The truth is that previously unknown phenomena only remained unknown as long as we had no idea to even look for them. And that we were, ultimately LEAD to them BY a trail of real evidence.

The fact that the Earth is NOT the center of the universe SEEMED obvious to the casual observer... i.e. those looking had plenty of evidence that that was what they were seeing.... But the CLOSER we looked, the better our instruments for looking and quantifying what we were looking at, the More Evidence piled up that was totally inconsistent with that 'theory'.

Ultimately, we were forced by the weight of evidence to accept a different conclusion.

In the same way, we discovered radio and the rest of the electromagnetic spectrum BECAUSE with our advancing technology and instrumentations we kept bumping into REAL, REPEATABLE EVIDENCE that there was some phenomenon we could not perceive with our ordinary senses.


The fact is that REAL undiscovered phenomena STILL leave evidence of their existence, tho we may, for a time, not be aware of that evidence.


But there is no history of something that exists, being actively searched for, of which not the slightest trace of valid evidence can be found.

We found the Coelacanth and Okapi, despite the fact that NO ONE was looking for them... we stumbled across them.
But decades of searching for Bigfeet, Nessy, and space aliens has not produced the slightest verifiable trace of them.

Just stories.

Here's a clue... the one characteristic that can be said to be "true" of ALL things that Do Not Exist, is that they leave no valid evidence of existing.

The device you are reading this on... the air conditioning in the room you are sitting in, or the glasses you wear to see the world in focus, or the medical care that has ensured you a fairly long and healthy life... these are not the products of folks "believing" in things unseen or unprovable.

They are entirely the result of Proving what is true and discarding what can not be proven to be true.

Anecdotes are NOT evidence.
Medications that show no Valid evidence of working (i.e. statistically better than placebo in reported effect ) really do not work.

And that's why they don't sell them.

Understanding that there is a difference between what really occurs and what people, with their imaginations, Believe to have occurred is the difference between shaking a rattle to scare away the evil spirits... and an antibiotic that actually cures an infection.

Respect science and reason. Without it, you would be gnawing the marrow out of a bone in a cave.

Look asshole, I don't appreciate your implications that I am "ignorant". You speak of ignorance but wholly dismiss phenomena and documented events because there is no substantial proof of their existence (or at least none substantial enough for YOU). You blindly ASSume that if the evidence is not there, it mustn't exist.

Lack of knowledge of the existence of something is also "ignorance" of the fact. So Fuck OFF.
 
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LuciferChild

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hey let keep this thread polite with some manners ok?

what is for you a real evidence or proof of something like Ufos or beings from space?

because theres been so many fake videos that when someday one is real nobody believes it, so what it needs to show to people that is the real one?
 

b.c.

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hey let keep this thread polite with some manners ok?

what is for you a real evidence or proof of something like Ufos or beings from space?

because theres been so many fake videos that when someday one is real nobody believes it, so what it needs to show to people that is the real one?

Manners? I am not the one inferring that others here are "ignorant" because they choose to believe in the possibility of things beyond what can be "proven true".

Further, perhaps you should read what I've stated on the subject above before putting words in my mouth.

All I've argued from the start is that there have be documented events: sightings of objects of an unknown origin that appear to be flying. I haven't said a damned thing about them necessarily being from outer space.

Also, I've stated that others here are entitled to their opinions and beliefs, whether that be belief in UFO's, extraterrestrials, God, angels, demons, "Bigfoot" or WTF-ever. At least I have respect for their choice, more apparently than certain posters here have for ours, in so far as we (who disagree with their particular "take" on things) are apparently "ignorant".

So who should mind their "manners"??

A comment was made to the fact that many learned people knew the Earth to be round before Columbus, an obvious reference to an earlier comment of mine. But where in MY post did I mention Columbus at all or whether a flat Earth was a widely held belief at that time or not? All I said was it turned out that a fact once accepted by many was not correct.

Besides, how many pre-Columbian “learned” people do you supposed there were in the world? What documented polls exist that "prove" (since we're talking proof) which belief about the world's shape was the more prevalent?

There is a mention of advances made in science in technology, advances made (so the argument goes) on the existence of evidence to support it. Unfortunately however, the argument fails to give any credit to those who thought “outside the box” or reached beyond that which was evidently apparent.

I think to posit that nothing in human achievement has been based on "leaps of faith" sells us short as a species; to argue that nothing exists that cannot be proven, unfortunately shortsighted.

Such lack of “imagination” in my opinion is saddening. But hey, that's my opinion.
 
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MichiganRico

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Debated whether or not to share this personal experience with a UFO in this thread, but thought it might add some substance to the dialogue.

Some years ago, I had a "close encounter" with a UFO at the I-94/I-96 interchange close to Coloma, MI. I characterize it as a "close encounter" because the UFO was hovering right above a stand of mature oak trees about 35 feet off the interchange ramp. The ramp I had to take to get onto I-96.

It was late at night in the fall and from quite a distance I could see this bright light that looked very much like a searchlight. From a few miles away I assumed it was a helicopter looking for a lost kid or the police looking for a fugitive...you know, the "normal" stuff. But the deal was that it appeared absolutely stationary--not like what you'd expect from a helicopter. The closer I got, the more curious I was.

As I exited I-94 onto the interchange ramp, I slowed down to a crawl. There was a very bright light emanating from the middle of the "craft" and focused straight down at a 90 degree angle. It was only illuminating the dead leaves and twigs on the ground beneath the trees--nothing else that I could see. The illuminated area was circular in shape and about a yard across. The light source appeared to be the size of a small searchlight--you know, the type used for club openings and special events, but it didn't move whatsoever. The light was attached to a "craft," which I couldn't actually see because it was shrouded in a foggy mist--but an absolutely uniform mist so I was able to judge its size and shape. (And no, there was no fog or mist anywhere else that night...it was a very clear, starlit evening.) The "craft" appeared to be elliptical in shape and not all that large...about 40 to 50 feet across. My POV didn't allow me to judge the width. The "craft" was completely silent--errily silent. Strangely, it also had two "navigational lights" on opposite sides that blinked intermittently and in sequence--one red and one green. All the while my brain is racing to find a reasonable explanation for this "thing" that I'm so close to--plane, helicopter, blimp? Unable to match this "craft" with anything from my experience, I decided I needed to get the hell out of there and fast. I hit the accelerator for all it was worth but I could barely hold the pedal down because my right foot was shaking so badly. As I completed the turn onto I-96 and looked back, the "craft" was gone, or maybe just went dark--who knows and I wasn't going back for a confirmation. A few days later, I made a "UFO" report to a MUFON investigator who asked me a whole host of questions--many of which I've anwered in this post.

Two things about this "craft" still puzzle me. First, the bright light source appeared to be "incandescent" lighting of some sort. I'm not sure why I feel that way, but it just seemed to be "incandescent," and again as though you were looking into a small searchlight. And why the traditional two blinking red and green "navigational lights" on something extraterrestial? What's really interesting is that a couple of weeks later, I saw a newspaper story about a "UFO" being sighted by multiple persons in Hillsdale, Mi, absoutely identical to the one I saw....elliptical, bright light in the center, blinking red and green lights. It was viewed at a far greater distance, however.

I'm still creeped out every time I have to take that interchange, day or night. And I still think about one of the last things the MUFON investigator said. Apparently, it's highly unusual for one to have such a close sighting (encounter) of a "UFO." Then the kicker. She asked me if I could account for "all my time" that night. I believed I could, but that thought lingers.

What I witnessed was definitely a UFO, unidentified flying object--or at least a levitating object, since I didn't actually see it "fly." Maybe it's advanced technology of this world--but why "park" it on display next to a major interstate highway and take it on a road show through Michigan?
 

Deno

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wow, I saw a UFO once and I stopped dropping acid after that. I have not seen one since so I don't know.
 

b.c.

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Debated whether or not to share this personal experience with a UFO in this thread, but thought it might add some substance to the dialogue.

Some years ago, I had a "close encounter" with a UFO at the I-94/I-96 interchange close to Coloma, MI. I characterize it as a "close encounter" because the UFO was hovering right above a stand of mature oak trees about 35 feet off the interchange ramp. The ramp I had to take to get onto I-96.

It was late at night in the fall and from quite a distance I could see this bright light that looked very much like a searchlight. From a few miles away I assumed it was a helicopter looking for a lost kid or the police looking for a fugitive...you know, the "normal" stuff. But the deal was that it appeared absolutely stationary--not like what you'd expect from a helicopter. The closer I got, the more curious I was.

As I exited I-94 onto the interchange ramp, I slowed down to a crawl. There was a very bright light emanating from the middle of the "craft" and focused straight down at a 90 degree angle. It was only illuminating the dead leaves and twigs on the ground beneath the trees--nothing else that I could see. The illuminated area was circular in shape and about a yard across. The light source appeared to be the size of a small searchlight--you know, the type used for club openings and special events, but it didn't move whatsoever. The light was attached to a "craft," which I couldn't actually see because it was shrouded in a foggy mist--but an absolutely uniform mist so I was able to judge its size and shape. (And no, there was no fog or mist anywhere else that night...it was a very clear, starlit evening.) The "craft" appeared to be elliptical in shape and not all that large...about 40 to 50 feet across. My POV didn't allow me to judge the width. The "craft" was completely silent--errily silent. Strangely, it also had two "navigational lights" on opposite sides that blinked intermittently and in sequence--one red and one green. All the while my brain is racing to find a reasonable explanation for this "thing" that I'm so close to--plane, helicopter, blimp? Unable to match this "craft" with anything from my experience, I decided I needed to get the hell out of there and fast. I hit the accelerator for all it was worth but I could barely hold the pedal down because my right foot was shaking so badly. As I completed the turn onto I-96 and looked back, the "craft" was gone, or maybe just went dark--who knows and I wasn't going back for a confirmation. A few days later, I made a "UFO" report to a MUFON investigator who asked me a whole host of questions--many of which I've anwered in this post.

Two things about this "craft" still puzzle me. First, the bright light source appeared to be "incandescent" lighting of some sort. I'm not sure why I feel that way, but it just seemed to be "incandescent," and again as though you were looking into a small searchlight. And why the traditional two blinking red and green "navigational lights" on something extraterrestial? What's really interesting is that a couple of weeks later, I saw a newspaper story about a "UFO" being sighted by multiple persons in Hillsdale, Mi, absoutely identical to the one I saw....elliptical, bright light in the center, blinking red and green lights. It was viewed at a far greater distance, however.

I'm still creeped out every time I have to take that interchange, day or night. And I still think about one of the last things the MUFON investigator said. Apparently, it's highly unusual for one to have such a close sighting (encounter) of a "UFO." Then the kicker. She asked me if I could account for "all my time" that night. I believed I could, but that thought lingers.

What I witnessed was definitely a UFO, unidentified flying object--or at least a levitating object, since I didn't actually see it "fly." Maybe it's advanced technology of this world--but why "park" it on display next to a major interstate highway and take it on a road show through Michigan?


I appreciate your sharing your story, though many will assume it's made up.

There are dozens of documented cases of sightings of something that those who experienced it cannot explain.

They don't have to be extraterrestrial visitations. But there are clearly documented "encounters" with something unknown or unidentified, documented in radio transmissions of experienced Air Force pilots, astronauts, etc. and in testimonials from some quite reliable individuals who knew up front they had little to gain and much to lose by speaking of it.

Their questions about exactly what they had experienced are legitimate questions one would have. They are neither imagining things, putting substance to illusions, nor "ignorant".
 
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LuciferChild

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i just hated the fact the video of that ufo on the dome of the rock in jerusalem is in fact a hoax already explained on youtube how it was done, because it seemed so real, i hate it and hate the people who fake ufos, they remove any credibility of those who really experienced the real thing....

and I hate when I see people on tv, radios or even on foruns, laughing and making non-sense jokes about this matter when they are discussion it, its so annoying for those who wants to know more and go further about this.
 

MichiganRico

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I appreciate your sharing your story, though many will assume it's made up.

There are dozens of documented cases of sightings of something that those who experienced it cannot explain.

They don't have to be extraterrestrial visitations. But there are clearly documented "encounters" with something unknown or unidentified, documented in radio transmissions of experienced Air Force pilots, astronauts, etc. and in testimonials from some quite reliable individuals who knew up front they had little to gain and much to lose by speaking of it.

Their questions about exactly what they had experienced are legitimate questions one would have. They are neither imagining things, putting substance to illusions, nor "ignorant".


That's one of the reasons I was reluctant to post it--or even report it. But skepticism is fine with me--sarcasm falls flat, however. Let me assure you, however, I'm not a fiction writer and every word of that encounter is the absolute truth. I can still remember peering at that extremely bright light out my car window and thinking WTF is this thing...just like it happened yesterday. It was so f'n eerie. Frankly, I could have lived nicely without the experience.

Somewhere in ufology files is a report with my name on it and the newspaper reports about the Hillsdale sightings are in the archives. If you haven't experienced this kind of close sighting, I can understand why people may roll their eyes. Again, I don't conclude it was necessarily extraterrestial, it could be some type of secret high-tech...but it was like nothing I could identify then or since.
 

b.c.

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I assure you Rico that I took your account at face value and wasn't being sarcastic at all. However, there are many who would dismiss it outright and/or attempt to convince you that what you experienced was not real, an illusion, etc.

And I agree, a conclusion about exactly what was encountered is not necessary. People know when they've experienced something wholly unidentifiable and (in their experience) unprecedented.

Here is just one listing of ufo incidents, not all of which can be so easily dismissed (entries in blue are links to detailed accounts of each):

List of UFO sightings - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
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Look asshole, I don't appreciate your implications that I am "ignorant". You speak of ignorance but wholly dismiss phenomena and documented events because there is no substantial proof of their existence (or at least none substantial enough for YOU). You blindly ASSume that if the evidence is not there, it mustn't exist.

Lack of knowledge of the existence of something is also "ignorance" of the fact. So Fuck OFF.
Is that Asshole or Blackhole...:) Mystery is part of this earth and universe...and the zillion other universes. Geeze, I wish I could explain away half the shit that happens with words. I think phil is a good person and I like his posts, always have. I like em because he thinks outside the triangle.
 

b.c.

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Is that Asshole or Blackhole...:) Mystery is part of this earth and universe...and the zillion other universes. Geeze, I wish I could explain away half the shit that happens with words. I think phil is a good person and I like his posts, always have. I like em because he thinks outside the triangle.

I have no beef with him. Just don't appreciate having it implied that I'm ignorant simply because I have a differing opinion on something.

There are too many DOCUMENTED events of encounters with something of unknown origin, things that have shown up on radar, even. It can't be ALL illusion, imagination, and fabrication.

And even if one chooses to believe it's all a bunch of nonsense, fine. That's his or her choice. Let's agree to disagree and leave it at that.
 
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LuciferChild

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Calboner

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Most recent one,

Will divers finally get to the bottom of the Baltic Sea 'UFO' mystery? Team heads into the abyss to discover the origins of strange, 400-metre 'Millennium Falcon' object | Mail Online

And the latest is that several battleships of 13countries went there before the object being removed by explorers, they said that couldn't talk more about it... Weird!
The thing is 10 or more meters tall and 60 across: it is not going anywhere, and certainly has not been "removed."

Nor is the article that you cite, which is dated June 1, the most recent news. Here is an article from June 22. As its headline says, "the mystery deepens":

Strange anomalies occured [sic] when electronic equipment came into close proximity to the object. A shipboard dive computer first registered the water temperature at the object's level at minus one degree, which would not be possible as the water would be frozen.

Further strange phenomenon occured [sic] once the team was underwater - the camera stopped working when they approached the object.

A satellite on the ship stopped working when they stopped over the object, resumed working once they were 200 metres away from it, then stopped working again as soon as they were situated over top of it again. This mysterious interference with equipment could indicate some type of energy emitting from the sunken object.​
 

LuciferChild

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The thing is 10 or more meters tall and 60 across: it is not going anywhere, and certainly has not been "removed."

Nor is the article that you cite, which is dated June 1, the most recent news. Here is an article from June 22. As its headline says, "the mystery deepens":

Strange anomalies occured [sic] when electronic equipment came into close proximity to the object. A shipboard dive computer first registered the water temperature at the object's level at minus one degree, which would not be possible as the water would be frozen.

Further strange phenomenon occured [sic] once the team was underwater - the camera stopped working when they approached the object.

A satellite on the ship stopped working when they stopped over the object, resumed working once they were 200 metres away from it, then stopped working again as soon as they were situated over top of it again. This mysterious interference with equipment could indicate some type of energy emitting from the sunken object.​

thanks a lot for contributing, and inform me of the news, thats new to me....

I read on another website that there was a militar navy "training" of 13 countries in that area just after when those explorers came with this matter to the public....
 

Phil Ayesho

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Look asshole, I don't appreciate your implications that I am "ignorant". You speak of ignorance but wholly dismiss phenomena and documented events because there is no substantial proof of their existence (or at least none substantial enough for YOU). You blindly ASSume that if the evidence is not there, it mustn't exist.

Lack of knowledge of the existence of something is also "ignorance" of the fact. So Fuck OFF.

Um... no.

How's that?

If you believe in UFO's as actual visiting space aliens... then, no matter what education you think you may have, you ARE ignorant... because you are ignorant of human nature, and your own nature, in terms of such things a confirmation bias, pattern recognition, and not understanding the difference between theoretical models of reality and actual reality.

And your last point? Yeah... that is a perfect example of nonsense.
Lack of knowledge of existence of something with no evidence in support is not ignorance of a "fact" because facts can be demonstrated thru evidence.

The FACT is that there is not one piece of unambiguous evidence of UFO's being spacecraft or extraterrestrial phenomena.

And I am certainly Not 'ignorant' of the yarns, tales, ravings and fantasies that many people have spun and many more desperately wish to invest belief in...

I have seen the pictures... the crop circles and all the "science" forwarded by people who have no real comprehension of science.


Trust me... I have an open mind... when you believers can finally pony up some unambiguous evidence that such things exist, I will be the first to change my mind and admit that I was wrong.


But seriously... seeing UFO's is in precisely the Same category as seeing jesus in a burnt sandwich.

And believing in UFO's is precisely the same as being willing to suppose that that random scorch mark might actually be God's best effort at portraiture.


I may well be an asshole.

But at least I am not living my life as a rube.