Uh...did I?

petite

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And yet it still happens. How do you tell someone who it happened to that it didnt. Or that its urine when:
1.They have full bladders
2. The fluid is not urine, or anything like they know urine to be.

We all went over this in the last thread that Zoe put out. And there was a naysayer until it happened to her, and she started her own thread about it. Petite, you are next. And until it happens to you, well, I guess we all agree to disagree.

Ejecting a little fluid doesn't mean that you've emptied your bladder. Many people sneeze or laugh so hard from being tickled that they only "squirt" a little urine. They don't empty the entire bladder.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree. For me, stories of personal experience cannot compare to scientific evidence, or in this case, the complete and total lack of it.

It doesn't make logical sense how a woman could squirt when she doesn't possess the anatomy for it. I just don't believe women have always possessed invisible structures that only become used once or twice a lifetime during really excellent sex. Occam's razor forces me to conclude that female ejaculation is a popular myth.

I may "squirt" for the first time during my third trimester, which is when I'm most likely to because of the pressure of my womb on the nerves that prevent bladder incontinence; however, I'll believe that it's urine from my urethra.
 
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Fleur

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There is little research done on this, so to say unequivocally it's urine, is asinine. You're not a doctor and have not done research on the topic firsthand. (an intelligent lay person Googling is not research) Even medical professionals debate and agree on one thing: more research needs to be done.

Do I think it's pee? No I do not. Men ejaculate through their urethra...so why is it so absurd to think women can't too? I do not think I peed myself, sorry...or "leaked" pee. There is urea in ejaculate...am I never going to swallow again because I'm going to say semen is pee!! It just has sperm in it! That's silly. Bodily fluids get mixed.
 
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petite

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There is little research done on this, so to say unequivocally it's urine, is asinine. You're not a doctor and have not done research on the topic firsthand. Even medical professionals debate and agree on one thing: more research needs to be done.

I'm going to ignore the ad hominen argument because it's one of the best known logical fallacies.

I can think of no reason why a woman would have this special talent that only happens to a few women, and so rarely that it's speculation if it's real. Men possess all this anatomy for ejaculating in order to spread their genes. That's why men have all that internal plumbing. There is no evolutionary benefit for women to ejaculate.

All the research I've seen on female ejaculation has been on the chemical makeup of the fluid. There still aren't the anatomical structures in women that would cause fluid to be expelled forward. We don't have muscle lined tubes for ejaculating fluid like men have. Just take a look at the links I posted in the post above. Men have an entire complicated plumbing system in there for moving all this ejaculate around their genitals. Women have none of it.

Suppose we do use the muscles lining the urethra to ejaculate the fluid, then how does the urethra get redirected from the bladder and where is the ejaculatory fluid stored? A woman's urethra is hooked up directly to the bladder. Men's urethra is connected to more than one structure by tubes. The links I provided above show these tubes. Where are our tubes? Where is the woman's equivalent of a prostate that holds a woman's ejaculate?
 
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HazelGod

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Let me explain:

None of these structures exist in women and there are no comparable anatomical structures. A dissection of female genitals would discover nothing comparable to a man's anatomy that would cause squirting.

There are no glands that create ejaculatory fluid, no structure for holding ejaculatory fluid, there are no tubes with an opening to the exterior, there are no muscles for propelling that fluid forward.

Conclusion? It's not ejaculate.

I think you're operating from a rather incomplete understanding of human anatomy and physiology. While there is a certain degree of sexual dimorphism evident in human beings, it certainly doesn't apply to the extent you're implying. We all begin life essentially female, so there are precious few structures present in either sex that lack any homologue in their counterparts.

First, the vas deferentia are not muscular structures...at least no more so that any blood vessel. They're tubes that transfer mature spermatozoa from the epididymis of each testicle to the urethra...analogues of your fallopian tubes. These gametes comprise less than 5% of the typical ejaculatory mass, the balance being fluids and proteins introduced later. They play no significant role in the storage or delivery of fluid semen.

Continuing on, women possess both Skene's glands and Bartholin's glands, which are analogous to the male prostate and Cowper's glands responsible for producing and/or storing ejaculatory fluids.

As for tubes opening to the exterior...I'm not sure when you last looked a penis in the eye, but we have only the one opening. All our plumbing feeds into the urethra...just like yours does.

I can't say conclusively how "real" the female ejaculation phenomenon might be, but I can say that the bases by which you're concluding it to be fake are flawed.
 

Fleur

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All the research I've seen on female ejaculation has been on the chemical makeup of the fluid. There still aren't the anatomical structures in women that would cause fluid to be expelled forward. We don't have muscle lined tubes for ejaculating fluid like men have. Just take a look at the links I posted in the post above. Men have an entire complicated plumbing system in there for moving all this ejaculate around their genitals. Women have none of it.

You realize that medicine is *still* finding out what our organs, glands, body parts do and do not do, right? A few years ago they said the pancreas had no function! And medical professionals agree they don't know enough about what the skene's glands and other glands do.

Maybe you should write in a medical journal since you're so sure. :rolleyes: I doubt it will get accepted...as you have no proof for your claims or empirical data.

I don't think your argument is logical. I'm not giving you an ad hominen argument...thanks for the wiki page...very ironic. :rolleyes: Thanks for breaking that down for me and getting all fancy. Very elitist of you... My logic is not flawed, you're NOT a researcher or a doctor, your basis for your claims have no foundation except for your lay person ill-advised logic and inferences you call "sound" that, is banal, to talk in absolutes the way you do.

Sorry...you did some googling and you admit yourself the research isn't there and you're wrong on a lot of the anatomy. Even doctor's don't know the functions of some of those things you mentioned but you seem to know, it's like magic! So, I'm glad you're so confident...but even people in the medical research field in gynecology are not! Let's be rational here, you cannot make claims like that without proof and that's all I'm arguing.

And in all fairness...you know I adore you as a person and you know that I know you've been on a medical reading kick since you've become pregnant...and while I think that's awesome and great to become informed, you need to realize, you're not a researcher or a doctor, that's not an ad hominen argument, it's a fact. Just don't take the googling and wiki to a scary cyberchondria place.

Web Can Be Misleading
Hypochondriacs are often not particularly careful about where they get their health information. To many sufferers, Gray's Anatomy, a half-remembered TV movie, and a harrowing health story about your hairdresser's friend's grandmother are all equally legitimate sources.

This can lead to serious trouble for hypochondriacs using the vast and unregulated web.

"A lot of the stuff on the Internet, especially on health-related bulletin boards, is pure impression and anecdote," says Barsky, "and they just don't have a lot of scientific validity."​
 
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Fleur

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I think you're operating from a rather incomplete understanding of human anatomy and physiology. While there is a certain degree of sexual dimorphism evident in human beings, it certainly doesn't apply to the extent you're implying. We all begin life essentially female, so there are precious few structures present in either sex that lack any homologue in their counterparts.

First, the vas deferentia are not muscular structures...at least no more so that any blood vessel. They're tubes that transfer mature spermatozoa from the epididymis of each testicle to the urethra...analogues of your fallopian tubes. These gametes comprise less than 5% of the typical ejaculatory mass, the balance being fluids and proteins introduced later. They play no significant role in the storage or delivery of fluid semen.

Continuing on, women possess both Skene's glands and Bartholin's glands, which are analogous to the male prostate and Cowper's glands responsible for producing and/or storing ejaculatory fluids.

As for tubes opening to the exterior...I'm not sure when you last looked a penis in the eye, but we have only the one opening. All our plumbing feeds into the urethra...just like yours does.

I can't say conclusively how "real" the female ejaculation phenomenon might be, but I can say that the bases by which you're concluding it to be fake are flawed.

Thank you. You are saying what a tired girl can't right now.
 

petite

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I think you're operating from a rather incomplete understanding of human anatomy and physiology. While there is a certain degree of sexual dimorphism evident in human beings, it certainly doesn't apply to the extent you're implying. We all begin life essentially female, so there are precious few structures present in either sex that lack any homologue in their counterparts.


What? We also all have gills during one embryonic stage, that doesn't mean we can breathe underwater. :rolleyes:

Starting out with the exact same anatomy does not mean that grown men and women have exactly equivalent anatomical structures. For example, why don't you explain where women's ejaculatory tubing can be found using some anatomical photos or MRI images or CT scans?

First, the vas deferentia are not muscular structures...at least no more so that any blood vessel.

Completely false. It's a duct lined in smooth muscle that contracts rhythmically during orgasm. If it weren't muscle lined, then the ejaculate wouldn't move through the duct.

Continuing on, women possess both Skene's glands and Bartholin's glands, which are analogous to the male prostate and Cowper's glands responsible for producing and/or storing ejaculatory fluids.

Skene's glands provide passive lubrication. It's sort of like the way that your nose doesn't ejaculate mucous from the lining. That's not how it operates. It just secretes.

As for tubes opening to the exterior...I'm not sure when you last looked a penis in the eye, but we have only the one opening. All our plumbing feeds into the urethra...just like yours does.

I don't believe you read what I wrote. Men have tubing that connects more than one structure to their urethra. Obvious as day during a dissection. Women's urethra is connected only to her bladder.


You realize that medicine is *still* finding out what our organs, glands, body parts do and do not do, right? A few years ago they said the pancreas had no function! And medical professionals agree they don't know enough about what the skene's glands and other glands do.

Maybe you should write in a medical journal since you're so sure. :rolleyes: I doubt it will get accepted...as you have no proof for your claims or empirical data.

I don't think your argument is logical. I'm not giving you an ad hominen argument...thanks for the wiki page...very ironic. :rolleyes: Thanks for breaking that down for me and getting all fancy. Very elitist of you...

Sorry...you did some googling and you admit yourself the research isn't there and you're wrong on a lot of the anatomy. Even doctor's don't know the functions of some of those things you mentioned but you seem to know, it's like magic! So, I'm glad you're so confident...but even people in the medical research field in gynecology are not! Let's be rational here, you cannot make claims like that without proof and that's all I'm arguing.

I'm sorry but it's Hazelgod who is wrong about anatomy. See above.

And you did use an ad hominem argument when you insisted that everyone else's argument warranted polite consideration because you agree with them, but my opinions didn't because you don't believe I posses the knowledge to give my opinion. You haven't required anyone else to provide you with professional credentials, taking them at their word, but me, you suddenly distrust when I provide a logical argument that without anatomical structures, it's most likely just urine.
 
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Fleur

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And you did use an ad hominem argument when you insisted that everyone else's argument except mine warranted polite consideration except mine because you don't believe I posses the knowledge to give my opinion.

Yeah...you don't posses the evidence and data to make the claims you are making...neither do I. I'm not making any personal judgments and you are indeed, taking it personally. It's not a dig at you. You have a right to an opinion, I never made any comment on your knowledge set...in fact, I believe I said you were an intelligent lay person, which is indeed, what you are as am I.

You weren't giving an opinion...you were trying to present findings with no evidence as fact. Saying they're are fact and presenting them as absolute proof and 100% fact is impossible in your case. You yourself say there isn't enough data. My argument is valid to say you can't make the inferences you are making based on the information you have, end of story...k, thanks...I'm not going to have a petty argument that you seem to be poking at me to have because it's superfluous and I already made my point...have fun getting the last word.
 
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petite

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I was providing the reasons why I believe what I believe and you became rude and condescending over it. I believe the lack of noticeable physical structures that could explain female ejaculation is a huge indicator that it probably doesn't really happen.

Fleur, I'm not wrong about my anatomy. If you want to get tiresomely pedantic about semantics in the wording of my post then we can do that, but my anatomy is not incorrect. I was making a point about how many anatomical structures are involved in male ejaculation and if women did the same, then our ability to do so would be obvious during a dissection.

I apologize, you are correct, I am no longer a researcher and I haven't been one for a long time now, but my past scientific experience has given me confidence. TheBoyfriend also no longer does research either, but he holds the same opinion as I do.
 

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I was providing the reasons why I believe what I believe and you became rude and condescending over it.

Fleur, I'm not wrong about my anatomy. If you want to get tiresomely pedantic about semantics in the wording of my post then we can do that, but my anatomy is not incorrect. I was making a point about how many anatomical structures are involved in male ejaculation and if women did the same, then our ability to do so would be obvious during a dissection.

I apologize, you are correct, I am no longer a researcher and I haven't been one for a long time now, but my past scientific experience has given me confidence. TheBoyfriend also no longer does research either, but he holds the same opinion as I do.


I know you were good intentioned, but I think you mistook what I was trying to say as a means to be a child and say "you're wrong and stupid!" and that's not what I was trying to say.

I'm sleep deprived right now an possibly not making perfect sense. I am a researcher but not in gynecology, so I don't pretend to know all about it. It'd be interesting to see them doing more research on the topic to see if it is actually possible or not. But until then, all I meant to say is you can't say one way or the other for certain. To me that's pretty black and white...not sure how stating the obvious makes me the "bad guy" ...I tried to explain my point, you got offended, I tried to explain it more, you got more offended...not sure I could have done anything there...until there's more research, you're more than welcome to have an opinion but present it as such and don't mislead others into thinking it's fact...
 
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petite

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I know you were good intentioned, but I think you mistook what I was trying to say as a means to be a child and say "you're wrong and stupid!" and that's not what I was trying to say.

I'm sleep deprived right now an possibly not making perfect sense. I am a researcher but not in gynecology, so I don't pretend to know all about it. It'd be interesting to see them doing more research on the topic to see if it is actually possible or not. But until then, all I meant to say is you can't say one way or the other for certain. To me that's pretty black and white...not sure how stating the obvious makes me the "bad guy" ...I tried to explain my point, you got offended, I tried to explain it more, you got more offended...not sure I could have done anything there...until there's more research, you're more than welcome to have an opinion but present it as such and don't mislead others into thinking it's fact...

Well, I've just used inverse ad hominem logic, implying that you should trust me more because I have a background in science. You shouldn't. If my logic makes sense, then it should make sense without having to back it up with claims of credentials. My premises should support my conclusion regardless of whether I have credentials or not. Many people without credentials are excellent thinkers, and many people with credentials are complete hacks. Expecting credentials before you listen to someone's reasoning is actually a logical fallacy, because it doesn't actually guarantee that their reasoning is sound and someone else's isn't.

I also adore you as a person, too, Fleur. I do not want to argue with you. I'll be clearer, these are my opinions, but I believe they're opinions worthy of consideration.

It is true that there are many things that are being discovered every day about how the human body works, but most of those discoveries are no longer at the anatomical level, they're on the biochemical and genetic level now. Our bodies have been dissected, scanned with MRIs and CT scanners, frozen and sliced thin, and plasticized and turned into art exhibits. Anatomically, there's not much left to discover on the macroscopic level.

I've based my opinion upon what is currently known about female anatomy, comparative anatomy with male ejaculation, and a comparison of the advantages of male ejaculation and the disadvantages of female ejaculation. It is my opinion that female ejaculation isn't possible from an anatomical viewpoint and makes no sense from an evolutionary or practical viewpoint.

I believe it is a disadvantage for women to ejaculate. Men ejaculate to get that sperm deep inside a woman's vagina, so he can pass on his genes, an obvious evolutionary advantage. All of the structures currently known to cause female lubrication during sexual arousal are of the secreting type, which do not involve holding liquid in a (metaphorical) storage tank, or propelling it forward using a duct lined in pulsing muscles. Doing so would defeat the purpose of lubrication. If the lubricant is squirted away from the vagina then most of that liquid would fail to lubricate the areas that need lubricating. That makes no sense and would provide no evolutionary advantage.

TheBoyfriend and I were just discussing "squirting" earlier tonight. LoveLines with Dr. Drew was on the radio when we were driving back from working out at the gym and a young man said that he made his girlfriend squirt for the first time and it made him feel so good about his sexual abilities (and it validated that he had a large penis) that he felt he needed to make it happen every single time he had sex with his girlfriend now. I groaned at this and we started talking about it. He's in for a lifetime of disappointment because he's elevated this experience into something mythical. Porn has created this expectation that makes young men like him feel like they have to reach that goal and will probably cause him lots of problems with his current girlfriend and the ones after her if he isn't reassured that women who don't squirt are also having incredible orgasms.
 
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HazelGod

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What? We also all have gills during one embryonic stage, that doesn't mean we can breathe underwater. :rolleyes:

Starting out with the exact same anatomy does not mean that grown men and women have exactly equivalent anatomical structures. For example, why don't you explain where women's ejaculatory tubing can be found using some anatomical photos or MRI images or CT scans?

I never made any claim that our development of vestigial structures in utero imparts us with the associated characteristics of other organisms...nor did I make any assertion that the general rule of homologous structures between our sexes is absolute.

However, men do not have "ejaculatory tubing" as you say. Semen is pumped through the urethra by pulsed contractions of the bulbospongiosus muscle encircling the lower part of the penile shaft. In women, this same muscle wraps around the entire perimeter of the inner labia. So again, there is nothing specific to the male anatomy at work here. Your contention that women cannot ejaculate because they lack the specialized anatomical structures that control the process in males is derived from two flawed premises. Logically speaking, if you begin from a flawed premise, any conclusion you derive will also be flawed.



petite said:
Completely false. It's a duct lined in smooth muscle that contracts rhythmically during orgasm. If it weren't muscle lined, then the ejaculate wouldn't move through the duct.
Nothing false at all. Re-read what I said...that it's no more a muscular structure than any blood vessel, which are also lined with smooth muscle tissue...as is most of your alimentary canal. The real point is to correct the inaccuracy you've just repeated: fluid ejaculate does not travel through the vas deferentia. Only the mature gametes from the testicles come through these tubes, which insert into the urethra near the internal root of the penis' erectile tissue. The sperm cells join with fluid secretions from several glands to form semen, which is then pumped from the urethra by the musculature I mentioned above.



petite said:
Skene's glands provide passive lubrication. It's sort of like the way that your nose doesn't ejaculate mucous from the lining. That's not how it operates. It just secretes.

I don't believe you read what I wrote. Men have tubing that connects more than one structure to their urethra. Obvious as day during a dissection. Women's urethra is connected only to her bladder.
Also inaccurate...Skene's glands drain into the urethra near the meatus as well as directly into the external vestibular region. Their secretions are no more active nor passive than their counterparts found in men...and as has been pointed out numerous times, our medical understanding of these structures is not complete.



petite said:
I'm sorry but it's Hazelgod who is wrong about anatomy. See above.
Just your saying it doesn't make it so...what exactly was I incorrect about?
 
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petite

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Don't be tiresomely pedantic if you know what I'm talking about. Men have a lot of anatomical structures that are solely for the purpose of ejaculating semen, including muscles that propel the ejaculate away from the body and structures that create the fluid. These structures are obvious and don't exist in women. You conveniently left them out of your post.

The "ejaculatory tubing" that I'm talking about are the two ejaculatory ducts (ED in the MR image, below the bladder) that are connected to the urethra from the seminal vesicles that create the ejaculatory fluid, along with the prostate. Men's urethra's have two other tubes connected to it, not just the single one to the bladder. A woman's urethra is only connected to her bladder. Those "tubes." These tubes that sometimes get painfully blocked and require surgery because it causes infertility because the ejaculate cannot travel through them to the urethra.

If a woman ejaculates from her urethra like a man, then she should have ejaculatory ducts. Women's ejaculatory ducts would then get blocked too, causing us pain, requiring surgery to fix. Except women don't have structures attached to the urethra that produce ejaculate. Women don't have ducts that carry the ejaculate to the urethra for expulsion during orgasm either. We don't have extraneous "ejaculatory tubing."

I concede that the vans deferens propels sperm forward, not semen. I was not paying attention and I apologize.

I said that you were wrong about anatomy because you claimed that the vans deferens was not a muscular structure, which is false. Fluids move through the various "tubes" in our body using muscles, such as blood, which is propelled by the heart. The vans deferens is lined in smooth muscle that propels the sperm forward by a pulsing action.

In your description of ejaculation, you've left out the seminal vesicle which is the main missing feature that a woman would need to "squirt" an actual ejaculate. Women don't actually produce ejaculate, we just get lubricated. We don't have a comparable anatomical part. The seminal vesicle is the structure in men that creates the fluid that the sperm swim in. Women don't need it because we produce no sperm. There are two "tubes" called ejaculatory ducts that are connected to a man's urethra that carry this ejaculate to the urethra that are missing in women. REALLY obvious during a dissection.

Now Fleur actually didn't say that she saw herself ejaculate, just that she got the bed very wet. I don't doubt that women can get very wet through lubrication. Skene's gland produces lucrication that is mostly plasma, of which we have plenty in our bodies. It just doesn't contain a holding tank and way of propelling that ejaculate away from the body.

I wrote that Skene's gland was "passive" because it doesn't use muscles that could ejaculate it away from the body. It works like the nose. When your nose is dry, mucous isn't ejaculated from the tissues of your nose, it is simply secreted, which makes sense for both the nose and the vagina because the area the needs lubrication is where the glands are located. Ejaculation away from the structure would defeat the purpose! Even if you wanted to ejaculate mucous from your nose using only the structures within your nose (not by sneezing) you wouldn't be able to to do it because there is no musculature there to propel it, no tube lined with muscles. Skene's gland is the same. It does not work that way.

I am confused, do you think that women ejaculate from the urethra or Skene's gland?

I think it's posible some intersex individuals may have the ability to squirt like a man, with actual ejaculate if a person has developed a vagina and a prostate, seminal vesicles, and ejaculatory ducts also. Such a person would not be fertile.
 
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petite

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there is a biological reason for female ejaculation.
as we all know women like to fuck around :) the male that gets to make the women squirt causes her vagnia to get clean from the other mens sperm and then he can give her his load and become the father of her kids

The the squirting would come out of the vagina? It would seem more likely that she would eject his semen out of her vagina since he's the one she is currently in bed with.
 

petite

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Just from an evolutionary standpoint, she's finishing first, or not at all.

True!

I concede that it would make logical sense if a woman could expel a prevous man's semen from her vagina if she finds a better prospect, but that doesn't explain how it would actually happen anatomically. It would need to come from the very back of her vagina which would make it dribble out, not squirt. Plus she'd need a whole bladder's worth of fluid back there at the end of the vagina to actually wash out another man's semen.

Ew!
 
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petite

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While I disagree with you in general about so-called female ejaculation, I do agree with you on this.

"so called"? What do you call it?

I don't believe female ejaculation/squirting is what people think it is, but something obviously happens during orgasm. It's real in the sense that something squirts with some women. I just suspect the answer is mundane.
 
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