UK general election May 2015

Jason

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RESULT ANNOUNCED OF 7th MAY ELECTION

The Sun has predicted the result. "It's a Tory". The story is in tomorrow's paper on pages 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7- and some other bits and pieces. The underlying view is that anything other than a Tory victory will destroy our country. Electing as PM anyone other than Cameron is so terrible a prospect that people just cannot possibly do it. In effect the paper is putting its trust in British common sense.
 

dandelion

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1) It is not possible to tax the rich.
Certainly not if you elect a party which has promised not to try.

2) It is possible to tax the poor.
So back to the days of bad king John. Time to cast Milliband as Robin Hood.

3) It is possible to tax the middle, but may be stupid to do so. The middle are in effect the people creating wealth.
So you accept that the rich are not creating the wealth? Time we got rid of them, then....

Tax will always hit the poorest hardest,
It will if you elect a government which has promised to do this...
 
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the Uk appoints a commisioner, so thats not so impossible.

I asked where you reckon scots and english aims diverge, because your question is a huge red herring if those interests never do diverge. Obviously they do diverge to some extent, because if scotland gets more money, someone else gets less. But that is hardly news. in the 300 odd conservative MPs there are already 300 parties vying to get some benefit for their own region. Our local conservative MP claims credit for a new road.

The big claim against SNP where their policy differs from the conservatives is with regard to tax and spend. Both parties would argue their policy is in the best interests of the Uk as a whole. SNP do not believe there should be one policy for Scotland and a different one for england. Contrariwise, SNP and Labour both agree that the conservatives have the balance wrong. This attack on the SNP by conservatives is therefore really a dressed up version of the attack on Labour, really on the principle behind their choice of tax/spend and what sectors of society benefit or lose.

It is also a racist attack, whipping up fears that England is being ruled from abroad, which is exactly the argument against the EU. Pure nonsense. There is a clear majority in the commons now, and no doubt in a fortnight, where 170 or so labour MPs would be happy to agree with 170 or so conservatives of very similar views and form a consensus government. What is stopping them is the pretense they do not agree.
We shouldn't try to keep SNP out of government because that's racist?!! Come on now - SNP's whole platform is based on racism... ie:Scotland being more important than everybody else.

I also don't think criticism of SNP's economic policies is a dressed-up version of that directed at Labour - it IS exactly the same criticism, basically that they'd ruin the country. That's not acceptable from Labour, nor from SNP. I merely said it's one of the big probs I have with Sturgeon - and I stand by that. The other was that she's trying to destroy the UK, which she is. :)
 

dandelion

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RESULT ANNOUNCED OF 7th MAY ELECTION

The Sun has predicted the result. "It's a Tory". The story is in tomorrow's paper on pages 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7- and some other bits and pieces. The underlying view is that anything other than a Tory victory will destroy our country.
Ah. wikipedia says "The Sun is a daily tabloid newspaper published in the United Kingdom and Ireland, founded in 1964. It is published by the News Group newspapers division of News UK, itself a wholly owned subsidiary of Rupert murdoch's News Corp"

That would be the Murdoch who is such a great friend of Cameron, whose journalists got into such trouble because they kept partying at his place? Who got Cameron sending messages signed LOL? Who nearly got his hands on a nice little monopoly except he ran foul of a certain lib dem minister who caused a fuss? Who was forced to turn up and be embarassed in front of parliament by that nasty committee with a non-conservative majority? wiki again: "In August 2008, British Conservative leader and future Prime Minister David Cameron accepted free flights to hold private talks and attend private parties with Murdoch on his yacht"

We shouldn't try to keep SNP out of government because that's racist?!! Come on now - SNP's whole platform is based on racism... ie:Scotland being more important than everybody else.
It is generally accepted that members of a political party fight for the interests of their party. What is not accepted is that parliament imposes a special bias against them. I'm not aware though that SNP claim Scotland is more important than everybody else. In this case, the conservatives want to disenfranchise Scottish MPs. There is an academic case to be made for this, but what the conservatives are saying is that Scots must not be allowed to run the UK. I have said many times this is unsubstantiatable, because 50 MPs can never out vote 500. Its purely motivated by party interest, and it is a racial attack against scots. The fact conservatives do not believe it, but it is purely an excuse to eliminate a rival hardly makes matters better.

I also don't think criticism of SNP's economic policies is a dressed-up version of that directed at Labour - it IS exactly the same criticism, basically that they'd ruin the country. That's not acceptable from Labour, nor from SNP.
I agree its the same, but that is not how the conservatives are expressing it. They are saying it is especially SNP which are objectionable.

I merely said it's one of the big probs I have with Sturgeon - and I stand by that. The other was that she's trying to destroy the UK, which she is. :)
in that case, perhaps she will end up saving it while trying to destroy it. Which I think is the most likely outcome. The conservatives have been the chief force pushing scotland and england apart for the last 30 years.
 

Jason

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There is an academic case to be made for this, but what the conservatives are saying is that Scots must not be allowed to run the UK.

This is the West Lothian Question. I don't think there is any possible doubt that there is a case to be made. Indeed devolution for Scotland shoud not have gone ahead without an answer.

The problem is not that the Scots should run the UK but that they should run England, Wales and NI. Before devolution all MPs were the same, all representatives of the government of the UK, and it was perfectly right and proper for MPs from any part of the UK to legislate for all parts. We've gone through a fudge period where the Scottish votes have not been decisive so it doesn't really matter - we've even had Brown from a Scottish constituency as PM.

I suggest the academic case is unanswerable. There are also however a series of other arguments. For starters England, Wales and NI just aren't going to accept this. If a Labour party that comes second tries to govern with Scottish votes then we have a real problem with legitimacy. We do have a UK constitutional challenge. We even have an international law challenge, as Scottish MPs voting on matters which do not apply in Scotland is colonialism, a UN matter. And of course we have an election that is being held on expired constituency boundaries, which is a gerrymander (and which seriously over-represents Scotland - it almost seems funny now, but Labour wanted the Scottish over-representation.)

We need a Conservative government which as a matter of priority gets through:

* English votes for English laws, and special arrangements for Wales and NI.
* Boundary changes

We need fast progress towards federalisation.
 
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in that case, perhaps she will end up saving it while trying to destroy it. Which I think is the most likely outcome. The conservatives have been the chief force pushing scotland and england apart for the last 30 years.
Apart from Labour, obviously - with devolution. :wink:

I do think Sturgeon has things on interest to offer, and I do actually like her against my better judgement. :tongue:

If Labour gets in, and they don't choose the Libs to moderate them (who, tbf, do a good job of moderating whoever they're with) - I'd be interested to see how SNP would turn out.
I do think they'd find they (and Labour) had to adjust their economic policies to fit reality, as will all the parties, and part of me would hope that they would enjoy their role in government and come to realise that Westminster (which they've demonised) and the Union are worth saving. It might also be a masterstroke a la James I, getting a Scot in power in order to glue the UK together.

However, I've got a horrible feeling that this wouldn't happen - and once in Government they'd proceed to pick the UK apart, and it would be too late to do anything to stop them. :redface:

Apparently the edition of the sun printed in Scotland says SNP are great!
I know, lol. :tongue:
 

dandelion

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Apart from Labour, obviously - with devolution. :wink:
No, I dont agree Joll. I think if there had been no devolution, then last years referendum would have been a vote to leave. The way to persuade Scots to stay is to give them what they want within the UK.

If Labour gets in, and they don't choose the Libs to moderate them
I could imagine a lib-lab agreement with SNP informal support. Numbers are suggesting this may require three parties. i think the libs would benefit greatly from a formal arrangement with labour as it would restore their electoral credibility.

. It might also be a masterstroke a la James I, getting a Scot in power in order to glue the UK together.
as per granting devolution.

We need a Conservative government which as a matter of priority gets through:

* English votes for English laws, and special arrangements for Wales and NI.
* Boundary changes

We need fast progress towards federalisation.
The only people wanting this are conservatives who see it as a way to boost their crumbling number of MPs. If you cannot get people to vote for you, change the rules so you dont need to.

This Morning treasury minister Danny Alexander (lib dem) announces that in his view, having spent 5 years trying to find cuts, it is impossible for the conservatives to make the cuts they claim they can make, without cutting tax credits. in support he has leaked some documents by civil servants discussing how this could be done, and suggestions put to him over the years by conservatives. The conservatives would be in real electoral trouble now had they not had liberals as coalition partners to hide behind.
 
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Jason

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The only people wanting this are conservatives who see it as a way to boost their crumbling number of MPs. If you cannot get people to vote for you, change the rules so you dont need to.

This Morning treasury minister Danny Alexander (lib dem) announces that in his view, having spent 5 years trying to find cuts, it is impossible for the conservatives to make the cuts they claim they can make, without cutting tax credits. in support he has leaked some documents by civil servants discussing how this could be done, and suggestions put to him over the years by conservatives. The conservatives would be in real electoral trouble now had they not had liberals as coalition partners to hide behind.

Our electoral constituencies now have unacceptably large size disparities and are well over-due for revision. They should have been done a decade ago. The Conservatives brought forward legislation, which was opposed on political grounds by the parties who thought that resolving this problem would penalise them. Labour and LibDem (and one or two others) have therefore rejected reform for their political benefit. This is a gerrymander. Whatever the result of this election we can be sure that Labour will have around 15-20 and Lib-Dem up to 5 more seats than they should have. It also looks as if SNP will have quite a few too many. For how many years do Labour intend to continue this gerrymander? We're already in a position where a safe Conservative seat (Isle of Wight) is almost twice as large as a safe Labour seat (Berwick).

The Civil Service consider all sorts of plans that are never implemented. They will certainly have been instructed to consider just about every benefit change that can be imagined. The Conservatives can avoid benefit cuts (including cuts to tax credits) by reducing the number of people needing them - ie by running the economy so as to create jobs. And of course the Conservatives have a superb record for job creation in a difficult environment.
 

dandelion

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Our electoral constituencies now have unacceptably large size disparities and are well over-due for revision.
the problem is the electoral commission has been gerrymandered because it has been ordered to ignore people entitled to vote but not currently on the voting register. that is completely unacceptable in any state which claims to be a democracy.

Are you willing to agree, on behalf of the conservative party, that constituencies will be redrawn according to the total number of eligible people living there? Those not entitled to a vote may be ignored, but everyone entitled to vote must be counted whether they are registered to vote or not.
 

dandelion

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The Conservatives can avoid benefit cuts (including cuts to tax credits) by reducing the number of people needing them - ie by running the economy so as to create jobs.
So will the conservatives now bring in a law saying it is illegal for them to cut benefits, and another law saying they will provide as much money for the NHS as it needs? (because it seems they do not trust themselves to keep a promise unless they make it into a law)
 

rbkwp

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am UK Elections finals week contribution ..


Ed and Cam need to emigrate to Scotland and have a sham marriage


scam the way Fwd .. vote YES'


People and Power - With This Passport I Thee Wed ...

We investigate the shady world of Britain's fake marriage brokers and how they beat the UK's tough immigration rules.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EhjCXVv3VCE&feature=em-uploademail
 

dandelion

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Just caught up on 'This week', discussing the election campaign. Michael Portillo, ex conservative cabinet minister was having a discussion about why people do not vote, and in the course of this they discussed the economy. Pleased to see he observed, quite forcefully, that whatever the current conservative administration may have been doing, they have absolutely not imposed an austerity regime.

Cameron was on TV again last night in debate. He did it again, that thing which so intensely annoys me. He blamed labour for the current mess. He lied. He keeps lying. He may have valid arguments about trying to reduce government spending, Portillo would agree this needs to be done, but both Portillo and I insist what he has carried through is Keynsian stimulus and not austerity. He lies about this regularly, claiming his is the party of austerity and labour the party of profligacy. the truth is, the difference between them is pretty small in the larger scheme of national debt. Ideologically they seek different things, but circumstances force their actions.

Politicians lie regularly. They do it because they think some people will believe their lies and vote for them. But in the longer run it just adds to the contempt with which the wider public views them. The more they screech, 'vote for me, the other party is evil incarnate', the more we know they are not worth electing. What they are criticising is themselves in a mirror.

Oh, and Cameron was really weird this week. Behaving like they had fed him 100 cups of coffee, and probably some illegal drugs as well. On purpose, so he would appear 'energised', rather than just because he was knackered. Good thing they calmed him down a bit for last nights debate.
 
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Jason

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Politicians lie regularly.

I'm not defending lying. However our politicians try to find the simple soundbite. Most people in the UK are simply switching off during the election. The soundbites are unavoidable, yet every soundbite is an over-simplification and may be a lie.

The invective each side throws against the other isn't nice. However it is important to bear in mind that socialism is the doctrine that has caused the greatest quantity of avoidable human misery. In theological terms it is an evil doctrine. It is beguiling - people who follow it think they are doing the right thing.
 

dandelion

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The invective each side throws against the other isn't nice. However it is important to bear in mind that socialism is the doctrine that has caused the greatest quantity of avoidable human misery.
The important thing to bear in mind is that politicians lie frequently. If Portillo was still a politician he might have a very different thing to say about the stance of the conservative party now, he might be publicly agreeing with you that conservatives are not socialists, whereas they are.

Also, he might stop saying in very plain terms, and as a former defence minister, that the Uk retaining nuclear weapons is insane. Not from the moral standpoint, but purely pragmatically that is we have that amount of money to spend on defence, there are many more useful ways to spend it.

As to the west lothian question, Nicola Sturgeon just proposed a solution. Election of PMs should be by proportional representation. That would allow people like me to vote SNP as well as those living just in Scotland. Of course, it would pretty much guarantee never again having a majority conservative government, so I dont see cameron going for it.

As I said to you before, are you willing to accept that constituencies need to be reorganised on the basis of the number of eligible people living in the area, not as at present on the number who happen to have registered to vote?
 

Jason

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@Dandelion, I don't see how we can determine the number of people eligible to vote other than by the register of electors. Of course we should get as many people as possible on the register (and there was quite a campaign to do just this). However is there any reason to think that there are big variations in constituencies drawn up on the basis of people on the electoral register than on the basis of who should be on the register?

The constituencies we have at present are gerrymandered in favour of Labour and LibDem. The Boundary Commission provided the solution, and this should have been ratified by MPs of all parties. That Labour and LibDem preferred a gerrymander to the Boundary Commission is shocking. The Boundary Commission's proposed constituencies would have been a big improvement on what we have. Maybe we could now be looking at the next reform. However we really are in a shocking position where (whatever the outcome of the next election) Conservatives are going to be 20-25 seats less than they should be if our democracy had proper constituencies.

A system of a directly elected "PM" is of course a presidential system. In the UK we have our Queen in this role. Instead we need a prime minister who can command a majority in the Commons.

The nightmare remains that we end up on 8th May with a stale-mate. It may well be that Lab+SNP is the way that the figures work, and that no possible majority exists without SNP. A block of 40-59 SNP MPs is substantial.

There are all sorts of unthinkables for 8th May. One of the least problematic would be Lab+LibDem, but the polls suggest this is unlikely to add up (and I really don't think Lab+LibDem+SNP is possible). Similarly Con+LibDem is not too problematic; neither is Con+DUP or Con+LibDem+DUP. I suspect the mathematics will force solutions on parties. The idea of a grand coalition of Con+Lab has a certain fascination. Presumably it would not be a true coalition but confidence & supply, and would have a very limited remit (almost a remit to change nothing) and would instead be pushing through boundary changes and English votes for English laws. Of course the latter change would (presumably) give the Conservatives a majority on most issues. Maybe a Con+Lab agreement could be for a short, fixed-term, say two years. What just won't work is a negotiation between Lab and SNP before every single vote. I think Labour knows this. I really do think the idea of a Con+Lab coalition moves up the possibilities.

We also have constitutional issues. Without either a coalition or confidence & supply the Queen will not read the Queen's speech. In effect we're looking at enhanced power for the Lords. It would be reasonable for the Lords to delay every single bill proposed by such a parliament. It is convention that they don't delay budgets, but even this convention may be set aside.

On 8th May there may be a decision for Labour: who is worse, SNP or Conservative? Labour know that SNP is presenting fantasy economics, and they also know that working with them will present Labour as the anti-English party (and most Labour MPs are from England). They know that the electorate would remember a "coalition of chaos" with SNP and treat them even worse than the LibDems. I suspect we really are looking at the possibility of Lab giving confidence and supply (assuming Lab are the second biggest party). Even if Labour are biggest, assuming a Con+LibDem+DUP agreement less than say 320 seats we are still looking at the need for confidence and supply from Labour.

This is the story no party wants to discuss. Are Lab going to be forced to give confidence & supply to the Conservatives? (Technically Con giving confidence and supply to Lab is also possible, but the figures make this much less likely).
 

rbkwp

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naah aah ha'

did not even watch that final debate q and a yesterday
boring all the CRAP the cunts were esputing i am sure especially in knowing it will likely not come to fruition/be varied to buggery/something else will come up that has redirection on it

better let you Brits get down to the serious side of your Elections ha'

GOOD LUCK .. Ed
time for a change

the longer any party stays in Power, the more cock sure they are of themselves
not really reflecting what the common person/majority want
 

dandelion

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@Dandelion, I don't see how we can determine the number of people eligible to vote other than by the register of electors.
Do you not? traditionally I understand the boundary commission used to use the census, but has ben forbidden to do so. Apart from this, the credit rating agencies seem to have a much better idea of who lives where and details about their lives than does the government. I understand it is they who pointed out some 7 million people are missing from the register.

However is there any reason to think that there are big variations in constituencies drawn up on the basis of people on the electoral register than on the basis of who should be on the register?
I'd say the most likely people to be left off are those of no fixed abode, no social standing, those not wanting to pay council tax or complicate eligibility for other benefits. A number of those reasons might suggest the government ought to make it its business to find out exactly who lives where and what their status is. I would suggest that people of traditionally lower class are the most likely not to be registered. Labour voters rather than conservative, so yes, I would expect the erroneous current proposals to heavily favour the conservatives. Which is presumably why they do not want to change them.

Even if the missing voters exactly mirror the registered voters, obviously this affects the number of MPs which should be allocated to a particular area. So ignoring these people would bias against labour.

I would add that ministers professed themselves surprised when evidence was presented to them of the very large errors in the voting lists. This suggests they would not have adopted the current arrangements had they realised the extent of the problem. Allocation according to register was accepted by parliament on the assumption the register is in fact correct.

The constituencies we have at present are gerrymandered in favour of Labour and LibDem. The Boundary Commission provided the solution, and this should have been ratified by MPs of all parties.
That is not true. They prepared constituencies on the basis they were ordered to do so, leaving out all these people. I seem to recall that they in fact protested about this problem but were ignored.

The Boundary Commission's proposed constituencies would have been a big improvement on what we have.
Show me a map of existing constituencies listing in each how many people are missing and we shall see...

we really are in a shocking position where (whatever the outcome of the next election) Conservatives are going to be 20-25 seats less than they should be if our democracy had proper constituencies.
The evidence suggests to me that this is false, and in fact the changes would unfairly bias against labour. I was quite shocked when I first heard about this problem, that government, the current government, wanted to redraw boundaries deliberately leaving out so many people.

The nightmare remains that we end up on 8th May with a stale-mate.
On the contrary, I rather look forward to a balanced parliament where MPs are forced to discuss each issue on its merits and reach a decision.

Similarly Con+LibDem is not too problematic; neither is Con+DUP or Con+LibDem+DUP.
You seem to be forgetting that the Irish are practically in revolt against austerity. I thought conservatives have said it is utterly unacceptable to form a coalition with a left inclined party, such as any of the Irish, or indeed the liberals.
 

Jason

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DUP is a right of centre party. It is Conservative and Eurosceptic. In the EU parliament the party is non-aligned (non-inscrit). It's Ian Paisley's party. Indeed Ian Paisley's son (another Ian Paisley) is an MP and likely to retain his seat.

The DUP manifesto launch was pretty much a shopping list of their requirements for coalition with the Conservatives. There's nothing the Conservatives would find too problematic. DUP presently have eight MPs and are likely to have nine (they failed to take a seat at the last election by a single vote). If nine additional MPs would give the Conservatives a majority (say Conservatives at 313 MPs) then I think a Coalition would be inevitable. If Conservatives are at around 300 MPs then I think the Coalition would be with LibDems. If Conservatives are at around 290 then I think both LibDems and DUP. LibDems see DUP as to the right of Conservatives and don't like this, but I think we're looking at no choice.

If UKIP get any MPs I suppose they would vote with Conservatives on budget and key issues (in the end only Conservatives offer a 2017 referendum). I think the pollsters are guessing they will get 0-4.

326 seats command a majority in the House of Commons. However of the 650 the speaker and deputy-speaker don't usually vote and the Sinn Fein MPs (presently five but presumably four) don't take up their seats - so 322 are a de facto majority.
 
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rbkwp

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related
but in the other direction
Britain was particularly harsh to Nzers Australia and maybe Canada South Africa even?? dont know
maybe because they could
emigration, we welcome British expats as many as wish to come/we can get theyre welcome
yes
always been a sore point with me
you did answe that before Jason, i read it


British expats slam UK's immigration policies in election run-up
Al Jazeera English
Immigration has been one of the most debated policies in the lead-up to the UK's general elections.

And as Laurence Lee reports from Spain's Costa Del Sol, it's an issue that has taken the centre stage even with British voters who are themselves living in a foreign country.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWFadhZmlqk&feature=em-uploademail