unconditional basic income

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Perados, Oct 5, 2013.

  1. Perados

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2007
    Messages:
    6,263
    Likes Received:
    97
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    germany
    doring a national critical, the swiss people voted for an unconditional basic income. Every person who lives in the swiss should get a monthly income of 2000 rappen (around 3000 dollar) - the idea is, that no one is forced to work. People will start to do what they like the most and companies will have to offer better workplaces with better conditions, to get people to work for them.

    Now does the swiss parliament has to desite if it becomes reality.

    A model for the 21th century???
     
    #1 Perados, Oct 5, 2013
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2013
  2. h0neymustard

    h0neymustard New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2012
    Messages:
    2,700
    Likes Received:
    0
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    United States
    We do that here. It has created generational poverty. Do not make it easy to live in poverty, but difficult. That is the only way they will get our of it. Paraphrasing the racist white man, Benjamin Franklin.
     
  3. KTF40

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2009
    Messages:
    1,898
    Albums:
    1
    Likes Received:
    1
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    DC
    So where is the govt coming up with the money to give people $36k a year to do nothing?
     
  4. crushinonted

    crushinonted Member

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2007
    Messages:
    171
    Albums:
    1
    Likes Received:
    0
    Gender:
    Male
    I'm assuming you've never lived in poverty. I don't think anyone who has would consider it easy.
     
  5. Perados

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2007
    Messages:
    6,263
    Likes Received:
    97
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    germany
    It isnt about "doing nothing" - people will have time to care for their children or/and retired parents. Everyone can do the "work" he likes. If you like flowers, you will spend your life grow flowers. If you think 3000 dollar arent enough, you will search for an everage job, to earn more...

    This will reduse the spending, the goverment has to do, currently.
    No costs for kindergartens, no costs for retired people, no unemployment payments, no free health care...
    Also do these 3000 dollar inclued every benefit/payment the goverment offered till now.

    And it gets financed by tax income
     
    #5 Perados, Oct 5, 2013
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2013
  6. KTF40

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2009
    Messages:
    1,898
    Albums:
    1
    Likes Received:
    1
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    DC
    Huh? How are their no costs for retired people? These people are still going to need medical care and that surely isn't going to be financed by just a $36k per year check (which of course has to also go towards all of the other living expenses people incur). I assume since this is Europe, so the govt will foot the bill but of course a significant chunk of the population may no longer being taxes which leads one to wonder where is the govt going to get money to pay for these expenses.

    This is exactly an unemployment payment.

    Who is paying taxes when a significant chunk of the population can just stay home and do nothing while getting paid for it?
     
  7. vince

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    May 13, 2007
    Messages:
    14,479
    Albums:
    1
    Likes Received:
    156
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Asia
    The Swiss don't consider 3,000 a month a lot to live on. The dole in Switzerland is 70% of your last monthly salary, which is 6500$ gross on average. I think the UE rate is just over 3% and if you are sacked, you're expected to get out and hustle up another job.

    Swiss people have a different mind-set. They are much less likely to sit and "do nothing" than people in some other countries. The work-ethic is taken seriously.
     
  8. Perados

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2007
    Messages:
    6,263
    Likes Received:
    97
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    germany
    now the problem of our sociaty is, that no one has time to care for their family, like we did 100 or 200 years ago - we have to work, just to finance our minimum living standard and have no time for our family. It would change, if EVERYONE (from age 1 to 99) gets 3000 dollar. Insted of spending 40 hours at work, you could use the time to care for your family (retired parents).
    This means no one has to pay for a retirement centre...
    Also do a lot of people LIKE to care for others. With a guarantied income of 3000 dollar, people would offer their labour free, to care for thouse who need help. No one would have to pay them.

    But right, you propably need medical care when your old - but no one says you cant work as long as you are young. With an income of 3000 dollar + income out of work, it should be way more easy to safe money for your retirement...
    Everyone who works will have to pay a tax... Plus taxes on interests and companies
    no it isnt...
    First, you get it even if you are employeed
    Second, the definition of "work" would change - you dont have to be employeed, to work...
    What we call a hobby today, could be defined as work then.


    And even if you wanna call it unemployment payments, who cares? Thats "wortklauberei"
    You say it: they CAN do nothing... No one says they will.

    And currently does a minority of 1% owns more then 50% of all assets... You just need a propper tax system
     
    #8 Perados, Oct 5, 2013
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2013
  9. KTF40

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2009
    Messages:
    1,898
    Albums:
    1
    Likes Received:
    1
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    DC
    Maybe that's a problem in Switzerland, but I've never heard of country or society that says our problem is that we have to pay for retirement centers.

    Yeah, but you are de-incentivizing people to work. Maybe Vince is right and the Swiss have a strong work-ethic culture, but that can sure surely change where you are providing people incentives not to work.

    Even if it changes the definition of "work", it doesn't change the definition of unemployed, hence "unemployment checks".

    If you're paying people not to stay home and take care of the elderly, there is no tax system in the world that could prop up such a flawed economy.

    Look my original question was simply where is the govt getting the money to provide for such a system? You haven't answered that other than saying "tax income" (which will surely be significantly less over time" and the rich (which surely could not shoulder such a burden assuming they even chose to stay in the country).
     
  10. Perados

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2007
    Messages:
    6,263
    Likes Received:
    97
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    germany
    the problem arent the costs for a retirement centre, its a humanistic question...
    Do people feel better around their family or alone in a retirement centre?

    No one incents people not to work...
    You offer people to follow their dreams.

    ...pursuit for happiness - maybe it sounds familier to you :wink:


    WHY should the work ethic change? Your arguementation is based on the idea that you have to force people to work. - ever met a happy unemployed? To become happy most of the people need a task and thats something that wount change

    sure it does... Currently you are forced to do nothing, to get support (payments)
    But in a new system, no one will force you

    But again, the definition of words are unimportent
    currently we do exaktly that. We pay people to not to stay home and care for older people. The problem is, that many of these people are forced to do these jobs or dont feel conftable at their jobs - and the older people have to suffer, cause they dont get the treaty they would deserve
    Thats something that would change, if only people who like to care for older people, would do so.
    who says that the ritch would leave? They dont do it today and i doubt that they would in the future...
    Currently do less then 50% of all employees pay a income tax - with the new system 100% of all employees would pay a tax.
    So, even if 50% of all people would stay unemployed, the tax income wouldnt change

    Also are there other taxes then just income tax... You could finance it by VAT or company tax



    Now i ask YOU: would you quit your job and stop working, if i offer you 3000 dollar/month?

    There was a poll in germany with exaktly this question and over 80% answered NO

    The second question was: do you expect that your neighbour would quit his job? The answer by 80% was YES
     
    #10 Perados, Oct 5, 2013
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2013
  11. B_underguy1

    B_underguy1 New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2013
    Messages:
    1,985
    Likes Received:
    0
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    NZ
  12. ConanTheBarber

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2011
    Messages:
    3,720
    Likes Received:
    77
    Gender:
    Male
    The Canadian experience is that generous income support does reduce the incentive to work.

    In 1971, the Liberal government made the unemployment insurance system far more generous than before. Now, you could work 10 weeks to get benefits for the rest of the year. The leader of the Conservative Party said that he was sure this generosity would not tempt people to avoid work because Canadians had such a solid work ethic. However, so many people wound up on unemployment insurance that the government began trimming back benefits, increasing the qualification period, etc. By 1990, the government no longer funded the plan, which, going forward, was entirely funded by corporate and worker contributions.

    I suspect Germans are more accurate assessing their neighbours' work ethic than their own.

    $36,000/year would tempt large numbers of any population.
     
    #12 ConanTheBarber, Oct 5, 2013
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2013
  13. KTF40

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2009
    Messages:
    1,898
    Albums:
    1
    Likes Received:
    1
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    DC
    No, the question still remains where are they getting the money to pay for this?


    If you are giving away free money, that is an incentive not to work and spend 40 hrs a week waking up at 8am to go to work every day.

    I'm sure I'd meet a lot of happily unemployed people if they were getting paid to do nothing.

    Unemployed means you are not employed. That definition would remain the same.

    All this does is reduce the demand for retirement care workers and thus eliminates jobs of people who pay taxes. Meanwhile, the govt is giving away free money. Once again, the question remains where is the govt getting this money that they can give it all away while at the same time losing tax payers?

    Have you seen France and all of the people threatening to leave the country if they enacted the 75% tax rate on the rich? I'm not making this up.


    I have no idea where you're getting these numbers from.

    Switzerland already has a VAT tax. No idea what a company tax is.

    I'd strongly consider it. I would need to do research on places where I could live comfortably making that type of money. I hate waking up 7:30AM 5 days a week only to return home at 5:20PM. It's a pretty miserable life when you consider this is what I have to look forward to for the next few decades. I'd love to be able to stay home and do absolutely nothing and get paid for it.

    When you input this type of system in effect for a few years, I think a lot of people would ask themselves why am I working every day when I could be at home doing something else.
     
  14. Perados

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2007
    Messages:
    6,263
    Likes Received:
    97
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    germany
    an increasing unemployment payment isnt the same... Its likelly that an unconditional income would have different effects.

    On the middle term, the structures of the economy would change.

    Sure do people quit their job, if they can, cause the conditions of the job often doesnt fit or simply the payment isnt adequat...
    Out of free will, no one would risk his life for his job. But currently people risk their life, cause they are forced.
    No one would do a job were half of his body is covered with shit and earns just 1000 dollar. But people do it cause they are forced.

    With an unconditional income, the jobs would have to get changed or get paid WAY better, to find people who do this job...
    This will need time


    (btw im not a fan of the idea, but i think its interesting enough talking about - and cause there are only contra positions, i have to do the pro part)
    du kannst jemanden nur vor den kopf schauen (nicht hinein)
    right, it will influence the people how they think about "work" and the value of work
     
  15. Perados

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2007
    Messages:
    6,263
    Likes Received:
    97
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    germany
    we can pay for it already... Why should it change?


    right, with the free money you are in a position to desite when your work day starts and how long you work...
    If you like your job, you still will work 40hour or even more...
    Maybe not from 8am to 4pm but from 10am to 4pm.

    If you dont like your job, not you but your boss has a problem - he will have to change the conditions of the workplace to find someone who does the job[qote]I'm sure I'd meet a lot of happily unemployed people if they were getting paid to do nothing.
    [/quote]thats something i doubt - people in germany get paid to do nothing. None of them is happy
    If you own a company, you arent employed - does it mean you are unemployed?
    so, the goverment pays people for the job and tax them - what is higher, the payments or the tax income?

    If i erase these jobs, would the costs cuts higher or the income losts? :wink:

    no one left france... You should have taken a closer look.
    Even that fat idiot of an actor didnt left france. Even if he said so and met putin...
    And you cant increase this tax?

    Tax on the win of companies
    To do nothing or to do something else you like, maybe a hobby? - can you imagen that some of your hobbies could be a benefit to the sociaty?

    that EXAKTLY the goal of sutch a system
     
    #15 Perados, Oct 5, 2013
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2013
  16. ConanTheBarber

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2011
    Messages:
    3,720
    Likes Received:
    77
    Gender:
    Male
    The effect of giving people $36,000 per year would be to discourage the search for employment, whether that money comes as a guaranteed annual income or as unemployment insurance.
    That's just too generous a benefit.
    I'm not saying no one would look for work, but the number searching and the intensity of the searches would tumble catastrophically.
     
  17. Eric_8

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2010
    Messages:
    3,572
    Likes Received:
    5
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    San Diego
    I don't think there's any doubt that free goods will eventually, if not immediately, disincentivize the desire to work.

    I feel like that is just about as common sense as it's going to get.
     
  18. Fuzzy_

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2011
    Messages:
    3,708
    Likes Received:
    164
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Wuziland
    Proposed Swiss system:
    Give everyone a basic allowance and allow them to work (more) for extra income if they desire.

    Current U.S. system:
    Force people who receive a basic allowance to work at a predetermined job at a sub-poverty wage (work-for-welfare).
     
  19. Perados

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2007
    Messages:
    6,263
    Likes Received:
    97
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    germany
    if so, maybe you will have to find a different incentive to get people to work, as just the simple force "work or die"
     
  20. Drifterwood

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2007
    Messages:
    14,695
    Albums:
    1
    Likes Received:
    44
    Location:
    Europe and Asia
    The money comes from the ability of the wealth creators who give credence to the currency.

    God forbid that you shouldn't take them for granted though.