unconditional basic income

KTF40

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we can pay for it already... Why should it change?
What do you mean why should it change? You're proposing a new system and have yet to identify where these funds will come from. You are supporting a system of change as evident by this proposal going up for a national vote, so don't ask me why should it change, that makes zero sense.

I'm reading the rest of your responses and I'm feeling the same puzzled reaction to each reply. My initial question was simply to understand where the funding would come from to give away free money and you've yet to answer other than more taxes from a system that is reducing its work force. Obviously, I'm not satisfied with that response so no reason to go into a tit for tat discussion on why giving away free money incentivizes people not to work.
 

B_underguy1

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The government can't tax what it hasn't spent into existence in the first place. You're all back to front.
 

Fuzzy_

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Just a nerd rant:

Stardate 25500 - The crew of the USS Hamandegg is busy working at their jobs. They have no luxury items, earn no salary, and money is a concept that is long gone. They get praise, prestige, promotions, improved quality of life, increased opportunity and many other benefits for working and doing a good job. But their necessities are free, so why bother working?

Why do rich people continue to work? Why do people on welfare look for jobs? Why does anyone want to improve their lives regardless of their financial state?

Covering the basics doesn't suddenly make people docile, neutered sheeple. Fuzzy isn't saying that the Swiss plan will work, but it's an interesting idea -- although, USD $36K is ridiculously high.

Fuzzy knows one thing: forcing people to work while on the dole seems to reduce incentive. People working for just their welfare checks are the angriest group of people you'd ever meet. Being forced to work for $3 per hour (or less) would drive anyone crazy.

This neoliberal obsession of punishing poor people simply for being poor is just making matters worse. One day, in some stardate, people may realize that poor people need help, not punishment.
 
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Drifterwood

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The government can't tax what it hasn't spent into existence in the first place. You're all back to front.

Currency isn't the only form of value. I agree though that it is the one governments "create" as a representation of value to tax and spend. But it is not chicken and egg, because value existed before currency and it still does exist and as Fuzzy points out, it may outlive currency.
 

B_underguy1

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Currency isn't the only form of value. I agree though that it is the one governments "create" as a representation of value to tax and spend. But it is not chicken and egg, because value existed before currency and it still does exist and as Fuzzy points out, it may outlive currency.

It has nothing to do with value. Currency is a government accounting unit. It is created from thin air by the sovereign government by the act of buying goods and services from the private sector or social payments.
 

Drifterwood

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It has nothing to do with value. Currency is a government accounting unit. It is created from thin air by the sovereign government by the act of buying goods and services from the private sector or social payments.

I am saying the same thing. You are being obtuse as usual. Perhaps you could do us all a favour and remove that spikey thing from your ass.

Currency is a means of representing some forms of value. Government can then tax it as they can not a diamond. They can issue as much as they like but ultimately markets decide on its value.
 

B_underguy1

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I am saying the same thing. You are being obtuse as usual. Perhaps you could do us all a favour and remove that spikey thing from your ass.

Currency is a means of representing some forms of value. Government can then tax it as they can not a diamond. They can issue as much as they like but ultimately markets decide on its value.

Excuse me?

I'm just stating how the actual currency system actually works. Governments create currency by spending and extinguish it by taxation. A government cannot tax what it hasn't created in the first place. That is the sequence.

So a sovereign government is not revenue dependent. It doesn't tax or borrow to spend.

It is what it is.

"Value" doesn't come into it.
 

Drifterwood

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Excuse me?

I'm just stating how the actual currency system actually works. Governments create currency by spending and extinguish it by taxation. A government cannot tax what it hasn't created in the first place. That is the sequence.

So a sovereign government is not revenue dependent. It doesn't tax or borrow to spend.

It is what it is.

"Value" doesn't come into it.

And the relevance to this discussion is?

Why don't you just put this link as your signature? Chartalism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Perhaps we could discuss whether currencies have different values in another thread.
 

B_underguy1

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And the relevance to this discussion is?

Why don't you just put this link as your signature? Chartalism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Perhaps we could discuss whether currencies have different values in another thread.

The relevance in this thread is that the question of "funding" a social credit payment has been raised.

I'm pointing out that that is an erroneous view. Taxes come after spending.

Value, foreign exchange etc are irrelevant in the context.
 

vince

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I'm not sure about how, or if all this would or wouldn't work. I know little about economics. But one concept in this plan seems to have some common sense. That is that unemployed people wouldn't have to remain that way to receive support from the government. Under Canadian and US rules, you must remain unemployed and appear to be actively looking for work. To keep even a portion of the benefit, you have to stay at home and be unproductive "doing nothing". That design encourages fraud in those so inclined and does not give much of an incentive to get off the dole, other than the fact that the benefits are so low. With this basic income idea, the pressure to remain fully unemployed to receive the full benefit of an insurance plan workers are forced to pay into, is removed.

Under a unconditional basic income plan, people would have more options. For example, if you get sacked you could take a part time job and use the money, time and space to start a small business. If I had had that benefit when I was an employee I'd have had more to invest in tech businesses. I can think of many scenarios where this could be good. One is that adult children would be able to take care of their parents in their own place and work part time.

It seems like a crazy idea at first, but don't be so quick to dismiss it and automatically assume people will sit around watching TV. This could work in Swiss society.
 
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The solution probably lies between some type of incentive for people that are busting their ass with a low paying job to make ends meet and some type of penalty program to prevent malingering for fully functional adults that just feel some type of work is beneath them.

People that are invalid or single parents have different limitations and needs, that would have to be dealt differently.
 

Klingsor

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I'm just stating how the actual currency system actually works. Governments create currency by spending and extinguish it by taxation. A government cannot tax what it hasn't created in the first place. That is the sequence.

So a sovereign government is not revenue dependent. It doesn't tax or borrow to spend.

Why, then, does a sovereign government tax or borrow?

You say that taxation extinguishes currency the government has already created. What is the need for this undoing? And since borrowing presumably doesn't extinguish currency, what function does it serve?

I don't mean to be snarky; just trying to understand your view, which seems to go against what most of us have come to believe.
 

Penis Aficionado

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Why is incentivizing "work" such a great thing when so much "work" is utterly useless bullshit? Consider all the midlevel government and corporate employees whose job is basically to push paper from one side of their desk to another. (Or to use a more contemporary description, to shape the same old information into some new digital form and email it to someone else).

I'm not putting anybody down -- these are the jobs I've done most of my adult life. I never once imagined that the work I did would would be missed if I ceased to exist. We all pay these people's salaries already -- the "Administrative Associate Level IV" at some city, state or federal office; the Speical Assistant to the VP of Ridiculousness at some corporation. We pay for the one through taxes and the one through higher prices for goods and services.

It makes sense to me to instead just give them enough money to live on, and let them follow their interests and passions.
 

balsary

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Can someone clear something up for me? In the original post it was stated that every Swiss citizen would get 2000 Rappen. I had never heard of the Rappen, so I looked it up. From what I found, a Rappen is 1/100th of a Franc. When I checked the exchange rate, I learned that a Franc is roughly equal to a dollar.

USD - US Dollar
Country: United States of America
Region: North America
Sub-Unit: 1 Dollar = 100 cents
Symbol: $, US$

CHF - Swiss Franc
Country: Switzerland
Region: Europe
Sub-Unit: 1 Franc = 100 rappen
Symbol: Fr

1 USD = 0.90699 CHF
US Dollar Swiss Franc

So what gives? Is Switzerland considering giving their citizens $3000 a month, or is it really just $220?

I'd say the amount would matter tremendously in the context of this discussion.

Perados, you have a link to where you saw those numbers?
 
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B_underguy1

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Why, then, does a sovereign government tax or borrow?

You say that taxation extinguishes currency the government has already created. What is the need for this undoing? And since borrowing presumably doesn't extinguish currency, what function does it serve?

I don't mean to be snarky; just trying to understand your view, which seems to go against what most of us have come to believe.

It taxes to maintain the monopoly of the currency i.e. it will only accept its own currency to extinguish the tax liability and to drain liquidity to prevent inflation.

It has other uses e.g. to penalise certain activity that is perceived as harmfulor to encourage investment in beneficial ways.

"Borrowing" (issuing bonds) is primarily an interest rate targeting operation. It influences the rates in the interbank lending system and the amount of excess reserves. It has no effect on government spending.

It really shouldn't be called borrowing or debt. It is a change in asset class make up of the government money in the private sector. There is no issue of repayment constraints because it is purely a balance sheet operation.
 

Drifterwood

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The relevance in this thread is that the question of "funding" a social credit payment has been raised.

I'm pointing out that that is an erroneous view. Taxes come after spending.

Value, foreign exchange etc are irrelevant in the context.

It, they are not irrelevant because the affect the cost. Pro rata basic lifestyle affordability is not uniform across the world, nor does it include the same things.

And currency is obviously not the only form of value or exchange system.
 
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Drifterwood

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Regarding the OP, I think it is typical of European Hubris and arrogance.

The premise is that Switzerland can add such value and have earnings from that to give something for nothing to all its citizens.

What happens if things get tough? Liberal democratic Europeans have this bad habit of thinking they have a get out of reality card that allows them to create fantasy lands.

Let's start the policy in Greece.
 
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doring a national critical, the swiss people voted for an unconditional basic income. Every person who lives in the swiss should get a monthly income of 2000 rappen (around 3000 dollar) - the idea is, that no one is forced to work. People will start to do what they like the most and companies will have to offer better workplaces with better conditions, to get people to work for them.

Now does the swiss parliament has to desite if it becomes reality.

A model for the 21th century???

Maybe the swiss will start going offshore...:) :) Begin opening secret accounts. To where tho? My account # is ......... if I can help? :) :)
 
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bar4doug

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Just a nerd rant:

Stardate 25500 - The crew of the USS Hamandegg is busy working at their jobs. They have no luxury items, earn no salary, and money is a concept that is long gone. They get praise, prestige, promotions, improved quality of life, increased opportunity and many other benefits for working and doing a good job.

One thing about money in the *future*, is they never explain what is used on the black market for tri-lithium or some other star killing exotic weapon. It is usually information (secret codes to the shields) or some other object, which to me indicates that the barter system is in full effect.

If there is no money, how does one buy a place to live? Pay for passage? Buy a drink at the space-port?

Just sayin.....
 

njitalian02

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Now i ask YOU: would you quit your job and stop working, if i offer you 3000 dollar/month?


Answer: Hate to say it, but I'd consider it!!! I have college education, live at home because can't afford rent, and make roughly 3200/month working full time. Um...would I give up 200 so I could play with flowers, visit friends, and do the "work" I want to do? YES Ha