unconditional basic income

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Now i ask YOU: would you quit your job and stop working, if i offer you 3000 dollar/month?


Answer: Hate to say it, but I'd consider it!!! I have college education, live at home because can't afford rent, and make roughly 3200/month working full time. Um...would I give up 200 so I could play with flowers, visit friends, and do the "work" I want to do? YES Ha

Ah you say that, but you would probably get bored, or you would have to move out on your own or something.

I do think that if that dollar figure is correct it could e lucrative depending on where you lived.

A lot of the big cities I have been around $3K US doesn't get you much.
 
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One thing about money in the *future*, is they never explain what is used on the black market for tri-lithium or some other star killing exotic weapon. It is usually information (secret codes to the shields) or some other object, which to me indicates that the barter system is in full effect.

If there is no money, how does one buy a place to live? Pay for passage? Buy a drink at the space-port?

Just sayin.....


I can easily see you scalping tickets for the space shuttle to make ends meet.
 

bar4doug

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Ah you say that, but you would probably get bored, or you would have to move out on your own or something.

I do think that if that dollar figure is correct it could e lucrative depending on where you lived.

I could make it work. My home is paid for, as is my ride. I am not in any debt. There is always wok to do around the house to improve it. I'd never get bored. Just need to stay out of the gin mill and be able to save up for some nice LD trips to far away lands...
 

Perados

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Can someone clear something up for me? In the original post it was stated that every Swiss citizen would get 2000 Rappen. I had never heard of the Rappen, so I looked it up. From what I found, a Rappen is 1/100th of a Franc. When I checked the exchange rate, I learned that a Franc is roughly equal to a dollar.



So what gives? Is Switzerland considering giving their citizens $3000 a month, or is it really just $220?

I'd say the amount would matter tremendously in the context of this discussion.

Perados, you have a link to where you saw those numbers?
http://boilingfrogs.info/2013/06/03/basic-income-initiative-switzerland/

2500 swiss franks or 2800 dollar
 

Fuzzy_

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Regarding the OP, I think it is typical of European Hubris and arrogance.

The premise is that Switzerland can add such value and have earnings from that to give something for nothing to all its citizens.

What happens if things get tough? Liberal democratic Europeans have this bad habit of thinking they have a get out of reality card that allows them to create fantasy lands.

Let's start the policy in Greece.
Dear Drifty, Fuzzy usually agrees with you. But, how did Switzerland get to the point of being wealthy enough to have such a high standard of living? Sure, they have a banking economy similar to that of Greece and Cyprus, and Switzerland was lucky enough to escape their fate. But, maybe their idealistic, dreamy, overly-liberal bourgeois playground has been successful -- so successful that they can have the audacity to consider a citizens' allowance.

EuroTop would support Fuzzy on this, and he's always right, and is such a polite fashion.

How is this proposed system much different from marginal taxation where those who make under USD $36,000 wouldn't pay taxes, which would likely be similar to the existing setup in Switzerland (please correct Fuzzy if he's wrong, numbers notwithstanding). The Baltic states have a flat tax with exemptions. In the US, Steve Forbes proposed a flat tax with a $13,200 exemption. Suppose that Switzerland gave an allowance of $13,200 to each citizen: how would this effectively differ from Forbes' flat tax? Forbes was hardly a liberal or a democrat.

Fuzzy isn't necessary supporting a flat tax* or marginal tax. Fuzzy is simply suggesting that a citizen's allowance isn't [effectively] much different from a tax exemption.

*An exemption on a flat tax makes it progressive (for those who haven't done the math).
 

B_underguy1

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It, they are not irrelevant because the affect the cost. Pro rata basic lifestyle affordability is not uniform across the world, nor does it include the same things.

And currency is obviously not the only form of value or exchange system.

It's a domestic fiscal issue. There is no real world cost. That is the point.
 

B_underguy1

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Dear Drifty, Fuzzy usually agrees with you. But, how did Switzerland get to the point of being wealthy enough to have such a high standard of living? Sure, they have a banking economy similar to that of Greece and Cyprus, and Switzerland was lucky enough to escape their fate. But, maybe their idealistic, dreamy, overly-liberal bourgeois playground has been successful -- so successful that they can have the audacity to consider a citizens' allowance.

EuroTop would support Fuzzy on this, and he's always right, and is such a polite fashion.

How is this proposed system much different from marginal taxation where those who make under USD $36,000 wouldn't pay taxes, which would likely be similar to the existing setup in Switzerland (please correct Fuzzy if he's wrong, numbers notwithstanding). The Baltic states have a flat tax with exemptions. In the US, Steve Forbes proposed a flat tax with a $13,200 exemption. Suppose that Switzerland gave an allowance of $13,200 to each citizen: how would this effectively differ from Forbes' flat tax? Forbes was hardly a liberal or a democrat.

Fuzzy isn't necessary supporting a flat tax* or marginal tax. Fuzzy is simply suggesting that a citizen's allowance isn't [effectively] much different from a tax exemption.

*An exemption on a flat tax makes it progressive (for those who haven't done the math).

One is a payment i.e. new money being spent into the private sector, the other is not taking money from the private sector that is earning that money by transfer from other private sector entities.
 

Jason

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Dear Drifty, Fuzzy usually agrees with you. But, how did Switzerland get to the point of being wealthy enough to have such a high standard of living?QUOTE]

I find Switzerland a "hard" case, by which I mean I constantly revise my personal view.

* Switzerland has managed to remain at peace, which is usually a good thing. But Switzerland's accommodation with Germany during the 2WW is hardly something to be proud about. I'm not sure what else Switzerland could have done however.

* Swiss banking is fine all the time it is moral - but Swiss banks are famous for heir secrecy, which is tantamount to saying they are famous for handling the profits of crime. Is Swiss banking (and therefore the whole nation of Switzerland) a beneficiary of international crime?

* Switzerland benefits from being the HQ of a variety of international organisations. Why are they now in Switzerland? In a sense the international community is subsidising Switzerland. The countries worst hit by the EU debt crisis are Switzerland and Cyprus. Why not move all the UN offices from Geneva to Athens and Nicosia? We have an absurd situation where the UN is paying building costs and salaries two or three times the level they would pay elsewhere.

Much about Switzerland is inspirational. The cantonal system of government does seem to work very well, and the direct participation in government through referenda is impressive. Switzerland has forged an identity which transcends the problems of three and a half national languages (the half is Romansh).

I guess my problem comes down to the distortions implicit within the finance sector. To what extent is Swiss banking best regarded simply as organised crime? To what extent is this criminal aspect creating the incredible average wealth of the Swiss?

Aside from banking, Switzerland has few industries. Agriculture is absurdly subsidised and a sink for the nation's wealth. Much of the industry in Switzerland is around food processing and therefore benefits from the agricultural subsidies. Much of the rest of the industry is around luxury goods, including tourism, medicines and such things as Swiss watches.

Could Switzerland dream of the idea of an unconditional basic income were it not living on the proceeds of crime? Indeed is the very idea of such conspicuous benefit from crime repugnant? Should Switzerland not be making some sort of amends for its sins? For example Switzerland's international aid budget could be much larger.
 

vince

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Jason, Switzerland is not all banking and they do have a significant industrial sector for the population and those industries are making very high value products.

They export 20 billion$ dollar worth of watches and watch components every year. That is by far the highest number in the world. HK is next with a 10b$ industry. Yet they only make 29 million units compared to China's 600 million units.

Novartis is the second largest pharmaceutical company in the world. Nestle is the largest food company.

I have some large Swiss-made industrial equipment in my business and paid a premium over machines from other manufactures because their precision and reliability save me money in the long run. We also use products from Sika corporation extensively in our work.

Banking only accounts for 12% of GDP and 6% of the workforce. The Swiss economy is rated as the most competitive in the world.

Every nation has it's skeletons and crooks in the closet. No one should be claiming any moral high ground when looking at history.

btw- Switzerland gives more foreign aid per-capita than the US or the UK.
 
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Phil Ayesho

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We do that here. It has created generational poverty. Do not make it easy to live in poverty, but difficult. That is the only way they will get our of it. Paraphrasing the racist white man, Benjamin Franklin.

Yeah. Sure... THAT's what creates poverty... not the Board of Walmart deciding to refuse to hire people at full time so they can get away with paying them so little, that they have to be on food stamps and housing assistance to survive.
( by the way... the REAL Takers are the CEO who model their business practices to force the Government to supplement their workers pay. Those workers don't set their salaries. )

Oh, and we DON'T have anything like that at all here in the US.
There is minor assistance for mothers with small children.
And short term assistance for those who are unemployed... ( that DOESN'T cover those who quit, or those who are self employed... they get ZERO government assistance ) and their is disability assistance for those who are disabled.

And these forms of assistance are in place as the alternative for just allowing these people to starve to death.

But the vast majority of folks who are in poverty WORK longer hours than those who are well off.

They just get paid for shit.
 

balsary

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Yeah. Sure... THAT's what creates poverty... not the Board of Walmart deciding to refuse to hire people at full time so they can get away with paying them so little, that they have to be on food stamps and housing assistance to survive.
( by the way... the REAL Takers are the CEO who model their business practices to force the Government to supplement their workers pay. Those workers don't set their salaries. )

Oh, and we DON'T have anything like that at all here in the US.
There is minor assistance for mothers with small children.
And short term assistance for those who are unemployed... ( that DOESN'T cover those who quit, or those who are self employed... they get ZERO government assistance ) and their is disability assistance for those who are disabled.

And these forms of assistance are in place as the alternative for just allowing these people to starve to death.

But the vast majority of folks who are in poverty WORK longer hours than those who are well off.

They just get paid for shit.

This.

This was recently posted in another thread. I found it odd no one noticed the irony.

I work full time. I really get tired of all the people I see getting FREE things when I have to pay for everything I get. I go to the store and I see these people with 3 and 4 shopping carts loaded up with meat etc and pay for everythihng with food stamps. I have a few items and can't afford the meat they buy and can just afford paying for what I get. I go to the doctor and when I leave I pay $150 per office visit since I have a 10,000 deductable before my insurance will pay the 80%. This is the premium policy too! I see people come in there and pay $2 and get to see the doctor as well. When I go to the Pharmacy, my medication bill is over $300 per month after insurance pays and then I see the same people get their medications for free. My kids clothes come from Wal-Mart and then I see the kids who get FREE lunches at school, wearing designer clothers with thier nails and hair all done, while my daughter can't get her hair done because we can't afford it. I pay $515 a month in premiums for me and then another $800 on my children per month for Health Insurance. I see these same people driving new cars and I am driving a 2002 van that has 200,000 miles on it and can't afford to get another one. This is very frustrating for me and my family. I tried to get my kids on Medicade but I make $1.12 a year too much on my pay check. I cant get food stamps because I make $2.00 too much. so for $3.12 I am exempt from these programs. A very frustrated man and father here. It just does not seem fair that I work really hard and these people get everything free and do not work at all and choose not to work because they can get more free than they could by working.
 

Eric_8

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This.

This was recently posted in another thread. I found it odd no one noticed the irony.

That you support Phil's postings while complaining about the lack of civility in the forums is the absolute definition of hypocrisy...I love it.
 

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That you support Phil's postings while complaining about the lack of civility in the forums is the absolute definition of hypocrisy...I love it.

Interesting. What about Phil's post above lacks civility?

If that's the definition of hypocrisy, what does this statement say about you?

If I tried to legislate the ignorance out of the world, I'd need to petition the man upstairs to add more hours in a day and time in a week.

Ever heard of the saying "before you can change the world you have to change yourself"?

If you need any signatures for that petition, let me know, I'd be happy to sign.
 

ConanTheBarber

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That you support Phil's postings while complaining about the lack of civility in the forums is the absolute definition of hypocrisy...I love it.
What about Phil's post above lacks civility?

I think Balsary asks a good question.
I think you could find a few posts by Phil that would clearly not offer civility as their first virtue. But the one above? Not so much.
 

Eric_8

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Interesting. What about Phil's post above lacks civility?

If that's the definition of hypocrisy, what does this statement say about you?



Ever heard of the saying "before you can change the world you have to change yourself"?

If you need any signatures for that petition, let me know, I'd be happy to sign.

It's hard to take your snark seriously when you've already (through gritted teeth of course) complimented me. You know I'm not ignorant, so the cutting jape (bravo to anyone who can identify the source) doesn't do much for me.

You're the chap who loves scanning back through post histories of members. I suggest you give Phil's a looksie. It shan't take long to prove me (at this point, it's almost starting to annoy me) correct.
 

Eric_8

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I think Balsary asks a good question.
I think you could find a few posts by Phil that would clearly not offer civility as their first virtue. But the one above? Not so much.

So because one post is, we ought neglect all the others that do so prove Balsary to be more than a titty bit hypocritical? Methinks not.
 

ConanTheBarber

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So because one post is, we ought neglect all the others that do so prove Balsary to be more than a titty bit hypocritical? Methinks not.
Balsary posted 'this' in support of exactly one post.
Is he on record as giving blanket support to Phil as a poster?