'Uncontacted tribe' sighted in Amazon

Discussion in 'Et Cetera, Et Cetera' started by dong20, May 30, 2008.

  1. dong20

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  2. Jovial

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    So you consider living a primitive lifestyle better than the way we live? Or do you mean they will be killed by diseases and other tribes when they are forced off their land. It could be argued that keeping them in a protected zone and not interfering with them would be immoral.
     
  3. dong20

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    I mean a combination of all those things.

    Primitive is a comparative cultural concept (see below for more on that) and please define immoral in your commentary, but do so in the context of the long history of humans from 'advanced' cultures meeting those from 'primitive' ones.

    After all, I wonder how many pointless wars, lifestyle diseases and other social ills their culture has. I'm speculating of course but I'd wager somewhat less than ours. I imagine they'd be gagging for a Big Mac, crime and declining social cohesion, and perhaps some STDs for good measure etc ... all those unmistakable hallmarks of a truly enlightened civilisation.

    That they have survived (however long) without living like 'us' just fine (so it would appear) speaks volumes. Of course they could be incestuous, homicidal entirely amoral cannibals who prey on the weak among them, but then, our non 'primitive' culture have plenty like that already so on second thoughts, maybe they'd fit right in.

    Sorry for the sarcasm it wasn't aimed at you personally, but I don't presume cultural superiority because I don't live in a hut, or because I watch TV and graze the Interweb - that's the height of arrogance and besides, I know too many people who do live in huts, don't watch TV and have never heard of the Interweb and trust me, they're far from primitive when it comes to things that really matter. In fact, in many respects the shoe is most decidedly on the other foot.

    No, that they have the right to live the way they choose, 'primitive' or not, and that the choice to initiate further contact should fall to them, not 'us'. Those were my main points.:biggrin1:
     
  4. 1BiGG1

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    It’s not just about the lack of modern conveniences these tribes lack making them the Neanderthals they very likely are.

    Like always, I‘m sure we are about to find out how a very few within the sects have power and there is no shortage of those in power abusing innocents like women & children.
     
  5. dong20

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    Neanderthals are extinct, allegedly. :rolleyes:

    We'll have at least that much in common then.
     
  6. 1BiGG1

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    Not quite, we don’t have the same few uneducated people acting as judge, jury and executioner.
     
  7. dong20

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    Really, look again at the comparative numbers. And who suggested a lack of education was a factor, I know I didn't?
     
  8. 1BiGG1

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    I do look at comparative numbers. Modern society has laws that apply to everybody like for instance if a congressman or garbage truck driver are abusing children they are both accountable for their dastardly deeds whereas in backwoods tribes, the general population is powerless when the leaders abuse their power.

    And that was me that said uneducated, I never said nor implied anything about you saying it.
     
  9. dong20

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    Abuse of power is also endemic to our own culture, perhaps to all given the opportunity. Yes we do have laws, but do you really believe those in positions of real authority are as accountable (in practice) as say, a garbage truck driver for their misdeeds?

    I passed over it before but I'm 'curious' as to your continued focus on child abuse ... there are numerous other forms of abuse. I'm also curious as to your earlier characterisation of women as innocents?

    On the backwoods tribes theme, while I can't say I've witnessed it first hand (have you?) I'd imagine the process for removal of abusive leaders would be rather more direct than that we've become accustomed to. Much of the time, people are 'powerless' because they choose to be, because the injustice is not important enough to induce [enough of] them to fight back.

    Note, this is hypothetical as 'we' know nothing of these people - other that that have weapons and some of them (men) are 'painted' orange and some (a woman?) black. Whether this is indicative of abuse by tribal leadership or an unbalanced social hierarchy, or merely personal choice is hard to surmise. But you seem to have already formed your own conclusions.
     
  10. TurkeyWithaSunburn

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    List of tribes
    Uncontacted peoples - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Sentinelese - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    A group that live on Sentinel island, in the Andaman and Nicobar Islands (NW of the Indonesian island of Java), a territory of India. Truly stoneage tribe, and reject all outside intervention, killing anyone who comes ashore and aiming their bows and arrows at helicopters that come near. From what I have read, they all survived the MegaTsunami of 2004.

    Pintupi Nine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    A band of 9 people who lived traditional hunter/gatherer life and no contact to mainstream Australia until 1984.

    I remember watching something on the Discovery Channel years ago about a group of nomads who lived in the eastern deserts of Egypt and were unknown until the 70's.

    A group of people lived in the high Artic region of Siberia and were only discovered in the 1990's. Surviving undiscovered the whole time the USSR was in existance.

    While not uncontacted some groups of people are "primitive" and actively reject the outside world. Others only know their neighbors. There was some PBS program in the 90's about a Columbian tribe, the Kogi, that allowed a film crew to come in and view/record their lifestyle for a week or month, and that was all the contact they wanted. They knew about the outside world, they used steel shovels gotten from a town miles away, but wanted nothing to do with it in a social sense. The program was originally on British tv I think. One thing I remember is that they all wore white clothes, and thought of the outside world as their "little brother" and the title was something like message from the clouds or message to little brother.

    It's a really interesting subject. How long people can remain uncontacted will remain to be seen, but surely the days are numbered. The biggest stress is first contact when the native peoples are exposed to common Western/worldwide diseases, influenza, measles, etc. Still today 1/3-2/3 of the people will die because of no immunity.
     
  11. Flashy

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    I wonder what they will think of "Everybody Loves Raymond"
     
  12. dong20

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    That their luck really has run out ...
     
  13. ZOS23xy

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    Show them Michael Jackson....

    That will scare them.
     
  14. Flashy

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    no...that happens when they get their first doses of "Keeping Up With the Kardashians" and "Living Lohan"

    :smile:
     
  15. dong20

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    They'd surely be dead from cholesterol poisoning or the Pox long before they scrape their way that far down the barrel. :rolleyes:

    Joking aside, and I'd be the first to agree that while TV is an extremely poor vehicle for the argument it does in a small way serve underscore the thinking behind my earlier response to Jovial; while contemporary western culture (to which I assume he was referring?) has much to offer, it's hardly a hop skip and a jump onward to nirvana.

    There's certainly many (often conflicting) measures, but it seems to me that 'civilisation' isn't so easily defined by 'modern conveniences' (wonderful though many are), urban sprawl and the incessant race with fellow Muroidea. Far too many are today unhappy with a perceived erosion of 'society' and many are seeking remedy or even escape. So it occurs to me; why would we wish to unilaterally 'inflict' this on others, it seems rather unfair to me.

    Comments made in ignorance of these people's social structures are mere speculation (and I include my own here of course), yet some have (evidently) formed firm conclusions about the correct course of action already, how does that work?

    My primary argument was that the choice to interact (or not) should be theirs not ours. But I live in the 'real' world and fully accept a free choice may not be possible, and that seems a shame.
     
  16. Flashy

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    I should have known you would offer another treatise on the evils of modern society...i was just joking though. :wink::biggrin1:

    You are a rather interesting if extremely pensive discusser of issues :smile:


    I agree in principle that if we are talking about exposing them wholesale to "Civilization", that would undoubtedly be a disaster, but surely, some basic form of contact, (and possible health care for them if necessary) to learn about them might not be too bad for them. (hopefully), if in fact they wanted to have contact with us., of course.

    Obviously, if we were to introduce them to our more "impressive" achievements, "Living Lohan" would probably not be the best representation of the achievements of our culture.

    But obviously it is their choice.

    The question would be, if we wanted to expose them to the "best" of our achievements, what do we show them that might spark interest or respect of some sort of our culture?

    I don't know...It is kind of difficult to think what would be relative to them, but not overwhelming?

    maybe the Space Shuttle taking off? They might have a heart attack!
    maybe an animated movie like the Lion King or Bambi?


    It really is an "unknown"...but obviously, our learning about them would probably significantly easier on our psyches than vice versa.

    How would we explain a McDonalds drive thru?

    Or imagine taking one to the SuperBowl!

    I can't really imagine the type of dissonance that a person of such limited experience would go through.

    Though the topic in and of itself is very interesting.


    It is sort of like what happened in that early 90s movie where the Amazonian tribal princess goes to Miami or somewhere to stop the rain forest from being cut down and wins a dance contest or something...I thought it was Lambada, but that is not it. LOL :biggrin1:
     
  17. Notaguru2

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    This whole thread explains exactly why we should leave them alone. Our culture is so multi cultural that we cannot determine who is right/wrong. I can guarantee you this - they have but ONE cultural standard to live and abide by and I'm sure it works great for them. =)
     
  18. Flashy

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    until they get eaten by an anaconda :wink:
     
  19. b.c.

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    Your sarcasm (and take on this) is spot on.

    How presumptuous of us to think that they are in need of "rescue" from us (given the history of "advanced" societies' attempt at "saving" so-called primitives to date), or that to leave them be would be "immoral".
     
    #19 b.c., May 30, 2008
    Last edited: May 30, 2008
  20. Notaguru2

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    LOL. If they had internet, do you think they'd become LPSG members? =)
     
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