Undocumented people in the united states are in this country Illegally?

Discussion in 'Et Cetera, Et Cetera' started by widenine, May 17, 2008.

  1. widenine

    widenine New Member

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    I had a dicussion with a fellow from another country recently. He has been here for eight years and, until he married an American two years ago, worked in his state under the radar. I expressed my desire to document all who aren't in some organized way, because I don't like untrackable foreigners in this country, period. And I made it clear that undocumented people from all nationalities and races are included in this concept.

    He believes America belongs to the world and shouldn't be roped off. He says, everyone in America is an immigrant except the Indigenous tribes.

    I take exception to his definition of "immigrant" and ask him to define it carefully. He responds that an immigrant is anyone who came to this country from some place else. He was adamant that the notion of free choice is irrelevant and insisted that even the slaves and their descendants were immigrants.

    I think this argument helps illegals, somewhat, in their justification to be in this country, but truly disagree that slaves or anyone who is pulled away from another place are immigrants. They are simply uprooted without a choice. What do you think?
     
  2. lucky8

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    ya, but us legal, American "immigrants" pay our fucking taxes
     
  3. Pecker

    Pecker Retired Moderator
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    Heaven help me should I be caught in any other country in the world without proper documentation. Why should the U.S.A. be any different than the others?
     
  4. mista geechee

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    aum this country was colonized by untrackable immigrants.

    everyone here is a desendant of "illegal" immigrants. america should not be roped off from the world. all it is is stolen land.

    paying taxes doesnt make you anymore entitled to this land thatn the native people. is that what you think? that you can come over here, elect someone your leader, setup up your own government, form a "manifest destiny", and pay taxes to the entity you chose to lead you, and that gives you more right to the land than anyone else?
     
  5. kalipygian

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    I think governments are over controlling in a lot of ways, people should have the right to go where they wish without being hassled. Legislators that make something legal or illegal do so in their own or their own groups selfish interest.
     
  6. lucky8

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    no, but it is fucked up that i am forced to pay money to the government who has made this such a great country, while these illegals get a free ride becuase their government sucks. i never said im more entitiled to this country than anyone else. stop putting words in my mouth geechee
     
  7. lucky8

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    they do so because they want to make money off of everything possible. if they can't make money off of it, it is deemed illegal (at least in America)
     
  8. mista geechee

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    i never put words in your mouth. if you read again you'll see the question mark. meaning i asked, i didnt tell.

    yea its fucked up that we gotta pay taxes for them but then again, wasnt it fucked up that the indians helped the pilgrims, then the pilgrims took their land. wat im saying is that wat we're complaining about people doing to us is what our people did to this lands natives. the cycle is simply repeating. or what goes around comes around, or however you wanna put it. they are simply doing to us, what we did to someone else. and as wrong and fucked up as it may be, we will forever have to pay for the sins of those before us. everyone has to
     
  9. D_Portelay Porquesword

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    The undocumented citizen has been issue here in California as you might know.
    I was side swiped at an intersection while waiting to turn left one time by this Mexican who's Spanish was terrible and fled the scene. He was illegal.

    It is a constant bru ha ha here.
     
  10. lucky8

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    ya, honestly i dont see why our gov. doesn't revamp the entire immigration system. it takes a minimum of like 10 years after filing for citizenship to even be considered for it, which is why so many come here illegally. our gov. is only hurting itself in this situation. it doesn't bother me THAT much though, afterall, they cant get insurance or go to college, so they're only taking jobs that most people don't want. there's gonna have to be a point where we shut ourselves off the immigrants though, otherwise we're going to end up like china...
     
  11. D_Thoraxis_Biggulp

    D_Thoraxis_Biggulp New Member

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    Actually, the original European settlers didn't come here illegally. There were no immigration laws set at that time. As for stealing the land, that's true of damn near every country in the western hemisphere. The age of colonizations was all about might makes right. What do you say we open up all the borders over here and bring back that way of life, but with our modern weapon technologies. That would be a great idea, yeh!
     
  12. potato51

    potato51 New Member

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    The IRS has issued more than 6.8 million of the individual taxpayer identification numbers since 1996. Last year, it gave out almost 1.5 million, about 58 percent more than in 2000. (CBSnews.com)


    Only a complete moron or Lou Dobbs believes that illegal immigrants don't pay any taxes. Even the most ardent amnesty opponents acknowledge that they do: For example, a 2004 report by the conservative Center for Immigration Studies (CIS) found that "the average illegal household pays more than $4,200 a year in federal taxes, for a total of nearly $16 billion." I think what anti-immigrant proponents are trying to say is that illegals use more tax dollars than they contribute. But both sides of the argument can easily find info to support their position. People can cite the CIS's 2004 study, which stated that illegals (read: Mexicans) cost the American government $26 billion a year. Others no doubt take solace in Texas State Comptroller Carole Keeton Strayhorn's 2006 report, "Undocumented Immigrants in Texas: A Financial Analysis of the Impact to the State Budget and Economy." Strayhorn announced that aliens in Texas paid about $2 billion in taxes and fees while using $1.16 billion in government resources.


    I don’t agree that America belongs to the world or that anyone who wants to should be allowed here; we are first and foremost a nation of laws, but the argument that illegals don’t pay taxes just isn’t sufficient or even true for that matter. Ideally our borders should be more secure; those who are here illegally should never have been allowed to enter and stay, but we have a real problem with what to do with those already here. I for one, don’t see how it is feasible to round up and deport the 12 million or so here already, at the same time granting blanket amnesty might only increase immigration. We need to stop the influx and deal with what we already have.




    This topic came up in my debate class :tongue:
     
  13. lucky8

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    well...i used to work with 7 illegals for a summer. every single one bragged about how they didnt pay taxes....
     
  14. potato51

    potato51 New Member

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    I read somewhere that only about 65% of Americans actually pay any taxes, and that half get more in benefits then they pay in. But as far as those 7 guys... that sucks.
     
  15. Phil Ayesho

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    Taken in large enough a lens, EVERYONE is an immigrant.

    No people of any nation have resided on the land they are currently on from their inception. Migration, refugees, invasion; human history is a long story of peoples uprooting and displacing other peoples.

    Even Native Americans came here from siberia... and even more recently, the Lakota tribes, who Europeans pushed out of the great plains, had only 200 years previously invaded the great plains themselves, pushing out the Pawnee and Blackfoot.

    There are NO people on earth who do not have blood on their hands.



    As to the narrower question... the term immigrant is not qualitative. It does not matter if you were brought here by force, came legally, or snuck in...
    You were not born here... you are from elsewhere.

    But the biggest issue is this...
    Immigration, both legal and illegal, benefits the U.S.

    Our economy can not grow unless our population grows. And the folks born here aren't having enough kids to even keep our population stable.
    Immigration alone, is the cause of the U.S.A.s moderate population growth.


    Further... the idea that illegals don't pay taxes is both incorrect, and immaterial.

    Yes illegals comprise a drain on State and Federal resources that is paid for by legal tax payers...
    However... it would astonish you to find out how many LEGAL citizens of this country do not pay any State or federal income taxes...

    And even more shocking is how many corporations pay no taxes.

    However... this issue is immaterial because Illegals DO pay, foir example, SALES taxes, on everything they purchase... and they are being paid for their labor at lower than normal rates, which lowers the cost of goods to legal citizens.

    The burden of illegal immigrants on the average taxpayer amounts to 30 or 40 dollars per year.
    But if there were NO illegals, and you had to pay higher wages for the work they perform, it would cost the average citizen $800 per year in higher food costs alone...

    Illegals also SPEND more money than most citizens... because they are setting up house when they come here, they must buy all the furnishings, televisions, cable services, cell phone plans and other things necessary to live.
    So a large percentage of what they are paid circulates directly into the local economies where they live.


    So the issue of taxes is not that simple. We need to look at their cost in CONTRAST to their contribution.

    Additionally, there is a truth behind the notion that they are doing jobs Americans do not want to do.
    The fact is that immigrants are generally harder, more industrious workers than the Americans vying for the same jobs.
    While Americans with that level of drive quickly realize they can get BETTER jobs.... and do so, leaving the only the Americans with the worst work ethic available for those positions....

    Latin America has the exact same percentage of poorly motivated workers... but those are the ones who stay home... too lazy to make the arduous journey north.

    So what we get in illegal immigrants are only those with the drive and determination to make a better life for themselves.


    And I have to say that the fact that you get your car creamed by an uninsured spanish speaker is not necessarily evidence that he was illegal.

    Many of the Barrios are filled with Citizen gang members who, like most Americans, feel the world owes them something.
     
  16. widenine

    widenine New Member

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    This is a convenient argument for staying in the states illegally. It's false to think that columbus founded the united states. His voyage to the Americas happened in 1492. The united states of America was created a few centuries later :)

    Now that it has been created,with a constitution, and after all the struggles inherent to colonization, slavery and independence through wars and internal strife, we have something worth keeping. And today, we live in a nation that looks almost nothing like the one that evolved around the original thirteen colonies. Consider the differences that have resulted from our exploding "legal" population AND the ever changing demographics of this land. All of this is to say that laws change and "law and order" demands that we acknowledge those changes. Changes that we citizens help bring about via the vote.

    So now we have the indignant illegal person who feels that this land, for whatever reason, belongs to everyone. What's wrong with that picture?
     
  17. EagleCowboy

    EagleCowboy Well-Known Member

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    Well, to us "indigenous" tribes, all of you are illegal immigrant land thieves and murderers.

    How about this? All of us Native American Indians with a provable and traceable bloodline, kick all the rest of you out, close the borders, and fix everything that all of you messed up, and set things right.

    Sounds like an awesome plan to me!! You all better figure out which country you would like to live in besides the US.

    :biggrin1:
     
  18. Phil Ayesho

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    PS-

    the hysteria over illegal immigration is bullshit.
    Its just right wing conservatives, trying to SCARE you into voting for their myopic and idiotic agendas...
    ...The same reactionary, fear motivated agendas that have gotten us into the economic, military, and diplomatic mess we currently are in.

    As soon as the american people tire of one imaginary boogieman, these conservative manipulators and spin miesters dredge up some other emotional hot button issue to try and get you worked up enough to get off your ass and vote for the "fraidy cat" party.


    Flag burning, gay marriage, WMDs, Al Quaeda, Iraq, Iran....

    It is ALL bullshit arguments from ignorance appealing to people's basest fears, and obviating any actual rational thought and discussion.

    Wake up.
    Stop being manipulated by fear.
    Stop basing your world view on timidity.

    And investigate the WHOLE picture.

    I am not afraid of terrorists.
    Not afraid of Illegal immigration.

    No nation in the history of the world EVER fell to terrorism.

    No nation in the history of the world EVER fell to illegal immigration.


    And if you're still nervous about illegals...
    You can stop worrying..

    As the brilliant republican CASH TRANSFER continues and the value of the dollar falls....
    The immigrants will simply leave on their own accord...
     
  19. jason_els

    jason_els <img border="0" src="/images/badges/gold_member.gi

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    In fact the earliest settlers came to North America very legally. They were given charters by their governments to come to North America and setup shop. It's hard to get on a boat bound for North America without notice. There weren't that many of them.

    The Pilgrims did not steal Indian land. Plymouth colony had generally excellent relations with the Indian groups in their area for the first 50 years or so. They allied with the Wampanoags during this time. The Wampanoags were in the midst of war themselves with the Narragansett who were forcing the Wampanoag to pay tribute to them. The Micmac had also just defeated the Penobscot and were threatening the territories of the Wampanoags. On top of that, the Wampanoags had been devastated by disease which had caused them to lose about 3/4 of their population. At the time of the Pilgrim arrival, the Wampanoag were in dire straits. It was not lost on the Wampanoag that the Pilgrims, with their superior weapons, would make excellent allies. The Pilgrims supported the Wampanoag in their renewed war against the Narragansett, who were themselves fighting the Pequot and, later, the Mohawk. The Narragansett, though weakened by these wars, tried to attack the Wampanoag again in 1632. Again the Pilgrims defended the Wampanoag and the Narragansett were defeated.

    After that, things went downhill. After the death of Massasoit in 1661, his eldest son, known as Alexander to the English, took over the tribe but had very different ideas about the settlers than his father. Perhaps he was more savvy, perhaps more prescient. He realized that huge influx of English colonists, who by now far outnumbered the original Pilgrims, weren't so keen on cooperation so much as taking land from the already small territories of the Wampanoag who numbered only about 1,000 people due to repeated epidemics. On the pretext of inviting Alexander to peace talks, the colonists poisoned him and he died. Following that, Alexander's younger brother, known as Philip, took over the tribe. Philip rallied the other tribes in upper New England including their former enemies, the Narragansett.

    In 1675, an Anglicized Indian, John Sassamon, who was a Harvard graduate and adviser to King Philip, was murdered by a group of Wampanoag when they discovered that he had warned the English colonists about King Philip's plans to attack the colonists. His murderers were tried and executed by the English and this made the Wampanoag furious as they felt this trial was a breach of their sovereignty.

    What happened next was the single bloodiest conflict in the entirety of white American, and likely Indian, history. King Philip's war was short but it was brutal. Indians throughout the region banded together. England sent no military help. At the time the war started there were about 52,000 whites in New England. Somewhere between 600-800 of them were killed, including 1 out of every 10 direct combatants. Indian war parties massacred entire towns including women and children. Measured by percentage, that's worse than the Civil War. Whole towns were completely leveled and when the damage was assessed after the war, 12 towns were found to be destroyed along with 1,200 head of cattle.

    As bad as this was, the Indians fared far worse. Over 3,000 Indians were killed but many more were sold into slavery, executed, or deported to Bermuda where their descendants remain to this day.

    It was a lost cause. Since the time of the arrival of the whites, enormously devastating plagues of disease swept the Indian nations every few years, reducing their population in New England by about 75% by the time King Philip's War had started. With the attendant loss of resources, the average 3% per annum growth of the colonies, and what few white allies they had before the war started, there was no chance. Of course disease honors no treaties or borders and for the Indians, who had no natural immunity to the exotic diseases the whites unintentionally brought with them, more epidemics were to come further reducing their numbers.

    There's a ridiculous myth that the American Indians lived in a sort of idyllic Eden prior to the arrival of the white settlers. People tend think they all lived in complete harmony with each other and that just isn't the case. There was actually quite a large Indian war in New England just before the Pilgrims' arrival. Like peoples everywhere else, they fought over territories and rights. It's naive and not a little patronizing to think that Indians were any less scrupulous about each tribe enhancing their own prospects in the world at large. Indians in other areas were no different. The infamous Aztec empire was the Rome of southern North America. They derived their power from conquering and slaughtering everyone else around them, those that survived they turned into slave states to serve Aztec interests.

    I offer this not as a defense of European actions in the Western Hemisphere, but as a reminder that wars and interactions between cultures are far more complicated than they appear at a cursory glance. To this day, the single greatest factor in the decimation of the Indian population was not war, but diseases unwittingly brought by the European settlers who, at the time, had no idea how or where diseases spread or even what caused them. Even in the areas where whites and Indians had cordial relations, disease ravaged Indian populations. The earliest successful eastern settlers, the Pilgrims and their Strangers, were myopic people who did not understand Indian cultures at all. The Indians were the same. When the Naragansett sent a package of arrows to the Plymouth colony as a declaration of war, the Plymouth colonists thought this was a trade offering and sent back gunpowder and bullets. The Naragansett had no idea what this meant.

    Each culture may as well have been Sonny Corleone opening the package with Luca Brasi's bulletproof vest wrapped around a fish. "What the hell is this??"

    Careful when throwing around the term, "murderer." That accusation can be used by both Indians and whites in relation to the other.
     
  20. B_jacknapier

    B_jacknapier New Member

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    Everyone living in the USA should have to abide by the same rules.
     
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