Unemployment benefit extensions

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Mensch1351, Dec 2, 2010.

  1. Mensch1351

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    I know, I know -- according to the Republicans all those people who collect un-employment are nothing but lazy and shiftless and just don't WANT to work (even though it was Republican tax cuts, outsourcing, etc. that PUT these people on the un-employment line!) So let's REALLY get fiscally conservative and vote down these benefits costing 18 billion all the while arguing that tax cuts for the wealthy costing 700 billion are just --- fine....necessary even.

    Well -- it's Christmas. And let me quote here from Luke chapter 1 of the New Testament:
    46And Mary said, “My soul magnifies the Lord, 47and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior, 48for he has looked with favor on the lowliness of his servant. Surely, from now on all generations will call me blessed; 49for the Mighty One has done great things for me, and holy is his name. 50His mercy is for those who fear him from generation to generation. 51He has shown strength with his arm; he has scattered the proud in the thoughts of their hearts. 52He has brought down the powerful from their thrones, and lifted up the lowly; 53he has filled the hungry with good things, and sent the rich away empty. 54He has helped his servant Israel, in remembrance of his mercy, 55according to the promise he made to our ancestors, to Abraham and to his descendants forever.”

    I hope all those good church going God fearing Republicans think hard and mighty about just whose side they are on when in the name of fiscal responsibility they are the AGENTS of repression of the poor and unemployed --- while advocating for those whom the Lord says he will send away empty handed! "Be not deceived -- God is not mocked!"
     
  2. dandelion

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    The problem with unemployment benefits in our economic model is that people learn to live on them. The trouble with not having them is that people learn to live on nothing, which is even worse for the economy.
     
  3. XXLJohn1955

    XXLJohn1955 New Member

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    The problem is that, even with Bush's (temporary) tax cuts, the wealthy haven't been creating jobs. The biggest frauds being perpetrated right now are:

    1.) if you give the rich more money, wealth will trickle down and,

    2.) the US government can't do much, short of an FDR-like "Works Progress Administration" effort to create jobs since the private sector has tightened up more than a virgin.

    When I hear "free market" types talk about how we need to continue tax breaks for the wealthy because they creat jobs I cringe. The wealthy are selfish and self-centered. They will horde cash and ensure that they become more wealthy no matter what it means for the rest of the country. If that mean shipping jobs overseas to reduce labor costs, they will do it. In the South, where taxes are low, were there are no unions, and regulations are minimal, jobs have continued to disappeared...so the argument that taxes, unions and regulation are to blame is b/s.

    At the end of the day, in the 10 years since Bush passed the tax breaks fewer than 1.2 million jobs were created and millions of jobs were lost. If the rich need tax breaks to create jobs they've had 10 years to do so and they haven't.

    In the meantime, we are fighting two wars, and trying to avoid another Great Depression. The only option IS the government. The private sector has failed us completely.
     
    #3 XXLJohn1955, Dec 2, 2010
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2010
  4. sargon20

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    BINGO. And what they are really trying to do is strip the lower classes of ALL power. And they've done a damn good job of convincing the common man that all the sources of equilibrium and fairness are evil, socialistic and bad for business. Unions are bad. Government is bad. Taxes are bad. All the tools that could be used to address imbalances of power and opportunity have been sold downward to the masses as bad. Even as wage growth has flattened, as job growth has flattened, health care costs are being pushed more and more on the individual who has no power the masses still buy it.
     
  5. mwealex

    mwealex New Member

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    I try not to get involved in topics like this because they are a waste of time but what the heck. The issue with this country is not the rich, or the poor, or unemployment benefits or lack there of. The issue is the pathetic degree of education that has permeated our entire society. In the last census data I looked at only 24% of the people in the US had a BS degree. Does a degree gaurantee success? No but it sure hedges the bet, if you get a decent degree. Then there is the arguement about the cost of the degree. Cop out of a generally lazy society with an entitlement complex. I paid my way through college as did most of my friends. We paid every dime other than a few scholarships or grants we received. If you want it you'll get it done.

    How does the lack of education impact our society:

    1. A lack of highly educated workforce leads to jobs being outsourced and those jobs are fairly high paying.
    2. Jobs that are created are unskilled with lower pay.
    3. Lower pay leads to less government revenue but what the hell we'll just increase taxes.
    4. Less government revenue means higher deficits or fewer government programs. We all know that no one wants to give back their government handouts and every year we want more and more.

    In 2010 only around 51% of the people in the US actually paid income tax. That is most likely directly related to education. Want to fix the problem? Quit whinning about rich vs. poor or Dems vs Reps. Focus on the real problem and that is the sad state of the education in this country. Improve that and most of this issues we're facing now will go away.

    But what people don't want to accept is that poor education can be a function of solcial welfare. What should someone work hard, sacrifice and pay back loans when they can do nothing and get a free ride? As the EU and California how that is working. Then again it depends on if people are smart enough to learn from what is happening around them.

    All the BS about "stripping this and stripping that" is a case of mental atrophy. Setting up a system of strong social welfare does nothing more than foster government dependance. That is the ultimate stripping of a persons independence. You cannot strip away a persons education. A strong mind is the sharpest tool and weapon a person will ever have.
     
    #5 mwealex, Dec 2, 2010
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2010
  6. B_talltpaguy

    B_talltpaguy New Member

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    ^Please show us statistics where more Americans had college degrees in past generations, than we do now.
     
  7. D_Davy_Downspout

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    Incorrect. People being on unemployment for long periods is a result of them not finding jobs, not a cause. Unemployment is not enjoyable.

    The issue is 5 people for every job in the country. Get businesses hiring, and you can cut unemployment back down to 24 weeks.

    This is pretty accurate. Supply side economics is the refuge of politicians and other idealogues. What we have is a demand problem.

    I would love to have New Deal federal jobs programs, but you'll never see it in the current US.

    This is great. It's the "you deserve to be unemployed" argument.

    1. No, jobs are outsourced because the labor is cheaper.
    2. Outsourcing drives down pay
    3. Possibly, but if you take a look, that wealth is still there, it just got pushed to the top. Unfortunately, we really like cutting taxes for those people, so you're correct we do have a revenue problem.
    4. Actually cutting taxes and funding wars is what got us deficits.

    I mean really, it's not hard to look at reality and see how we got deficits, rather than creating this fascinating storytime version.

    That's completely incorrect. You mean to say that 51% of the people in the US received a net refund form their federal income tax. They paid state taxes, they paid other federal taxes, as well as other local taxes, sales and property taxes.

    No, that is most likely directly related to low wages.

    While I agree that we need more education spending, you're trying to bridge a rather large gap in logic by saying "better education=all problems solved".

    Now you could easily double education funding by merely taxing the top bracket at 4% higher, or ending the war. Probably triple.

    This makes no sense if you know anything about the EU and CA. I would recommend you actually look into those two areas, otherwise you're going to have to explain what this means.

    I love that you've somehow managed to separate whatever you consider "social welfare" from education. They're the same thing, so it's just nonsense.
     
  8. B_Marius567

    B_Marius567 New Member

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    99 weeks of Unemployment benefit is a long time can't see why they want an extension.

    it is good to know that if I lost my job I will have 99 weeks of Unemployment benefit.
     
  9. D_Davy_Downspout

    D_Davy_Downspout Account Disabled

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    You won't, that ended. Anyone over 25 weeks is cut off.

    As to the first part, the 99 weeks thing is a special circumstance because of the lack of jobs.

    Your options are: A) Cut people off and hope they magically find jobs that aren't there or B) Keep the benefits going until things get better.

    Unemployment benefits are some of the best direct stimulus a government can do for an economy, because people on unemployment generally spend it all immediately on necessities. Cutting unemployment leads to more homelessness, and not only is that utterly barbaric to be doing right before winter, we'll be paying for the results of this anyway.



    "I can't see why they want an extension" is hilariously out of touch. It's because they're still unemployed.
     
  10. dandelion

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    In the Uk there has been a drive in recent years to sent more people to university. I think it nonsense. All it has done is drive down the standard of degrees as worse candidates get places. At the same time the cost of going to university has risen way up, thus inevitably discouraging the poor from bothering. What is needed is to find poor geniuses and divert them into education instead of crime or a career of state benefits. It is still quality educated people we need, not quantity, and quality is going down.

    I agree with this, but as I said quality is going down and I think is more important than quantity.

    Many low paid jobs which have not transferred to low wage economies are the ones which cannot be transferred because they have to be done here. This may well have reached the point it is necessary to raise 'minimum wage ' laws.

    Social welfare is an alternative form of 'minimum wage'. If companies refuse to pay wages or hire people to share their wealth, we'll do it for them. That is necessary in a time of multinational companies forcing down wages. We have plenty of money, the problem is that too few people are sharing it.
     
  11. Mensch1351

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    While NO ONE is going to argue with you that a better education is important to attaining a better job --- it is certainly NOT a guarantee. My father never graduated from high school, but made $29.00 an hour in the 1980's because he was a union man working for the A&P for 39 years. I have a Master's Degree and (given the fact I left my chosen field of work 10 years ago) I currently make $16.00 an hour in what I believe is a "white" collar job as Resident Director in an independent senior retirement home. In Pittsburgh in the 1960's when I graduated from high school, if you did not plan to go to college your choices were pretty much the mills, the mines or the military! Each of those choices USED to be pretty well paying. My brother went to Technical school for 2 years to take up electrical engineering and made $80K+ at his job!! Soooooo -- given what you said, how would you feel about the government sponsoring grants, etc. for "retraining" those who have lost their jobs due to outsourcing etc.?? Would that be tax money well spent?
     
  12. Mensch1351

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    Cutting benefits is also going to raise the CRIME & suicide rate -- desperate people DO desperate things
     
  13. B_curiousme01

    B_curiousme01 New Member

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    This has nothing to do with Democrats or Republicans, who did what when, said what when, or whatever a particular issue is with the fact that someone feels entitled to free money or services provided by their government on an ongoing basis.

    The American people are living in fear because we are so far in debt, and our leaders are mostly unproductive posers on all sides of the House.

    I am unemployed.

    Unemployment benefits are not meant to be a long term entitlement. The governement is not responsible for providing you with a ways and means to live. You/I/We are.

    America cannot afford to add any NEW debt to anything. Period. Wake up people.

    The fact that the Democrats want to totally rewrite the tax bill at the 11th hour AND ADD PORK TO IT is beyond my comprehension. It takes time and MONEY to do that.

    The Democrats had lots of time to pass the tax bill, but they waited too long and lost their bargaining position. Now they want to add more money to one bill for additional social programs.

    The Republicans want to leave it be as it was ORIGINALLY written. What is so wrong with that? It costs nothing and moves forward to the issue of unemployment to get its fair vote, not one tacked on to another bill.

    Almost every country in the world is facing serious economic depression and people everywhere are still asking their government to pay for this or that and blaming everyone and everything they can think of for just about every woe in their life.

    Give me, Give me, I want, can I have. From every side and every person.

    Stop it.
     
  14. SilverTrain

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    Tax cuts from the Bush era are expiring. The Republicans are the ones that want to pass a new bill so that the wealthy people will get big fat tax cuts again.

    This, following a decade in which tax cuts went hand-in-hand with the greatest government spending spree of all time. The result: our current mess.

    It's not surprising to hear all the cries about overspending now. They realize we can't spend-to-stimulate AND slash taxes. Something's gotta give. So, it's, of course, programs to benefit the poor, the needy, the children.

    While the tax cuts for the rich MUST STAY.


    Give me, give me, indeed.

    FFS.
     
  15. mwealex

    mwealex New Member

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    Social welfare is not education. Education is one of the first major steps to independance for anyone. Social welfare is the epitomy of dependance. How the education is paid for could be considered part of social welfare though.
     
  16. mwealex

    mwealex New Member

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    I could dig up the stats but they really don't matter. We don't live in the same world as past generations. The job market is evolving as are the skills needed to get a job and compete. This is why I think education is more important than ever.
     
  17. XXLJohn1955

    XXLJohn1955 New Member

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    Well said.

    The irony is that Bonehead and his crew whine about how NOT extending the hand-outs to the rich will impact jobs. My question...they've had their hand-outs for 10 years and jobs increased by a meager 1.2 million (vs. 23 million in the previous 10 years without the hand-out).

    Also, if the GOP wants to link job creation with the tax breaks for their rich friends, why haven't they created any jobs in the course of the Great Recession that started in 2007?

    Also, they want to reduce the deficit...by cutting government jobs and government spending. If the government isn't spending or employing who do they think is going to hire and spend? The rich?

    Their argument is so transparent it's stupifying.
     
  18. mwealex

    mwealex New Member

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    I love the point you made about your brother. I think one of our failings is that we don't have s strong technical school infrastructure in the US. Not everyone is cut out for college and a lot of those people take unskilled jobs, putting them is a pay scale close to the poverty level. A technical college system would allow people that didn't want to go to college to take a different avenue for a better job. I would be all for tax dollars going toward establishing that system.

    Yes, I am for tax dollars going to re-train people that have lost their jobs. Give them a stipend to help cover living expenses while they are being trained and then set it up so they only have to pay back a portion of the retraining costs. Depending on how much the retraining costs, may be they won't pay back any of it. That is an investment in the person and in the country.
     
  19. mwealex

    mwealex New Member

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    The problem is that the government is not, or was never supposed to be one of the largest job producers in the country. In the grand scheme of things the governments hiring has little effect on the economy. Their impact is more through monetary policy. People also have to keep in mind that when the government creates a new job where does the money come from to pay for that position, tax dollars. That takes money away from other things, such as paying down the debt.
     
  20. B_curiousme01

    B_curiousme01 New Member

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    I repeat, the Democrats want to rewrite the tax bill at the 11th hour. TIME AND MONEY. They've had lots of time to do it before now. Why didn't they?

    The Republicans want to leave it alone and then move on to other issues.

    Why is that such an ugly thing? Why can't you allow a bill to remain as one bill without wanting to add stuff to it that is not part of the original?

    Just about everyone, everywhere is needy right now. The problem is the money is so far gone we actually don't even have any. BOTH SIDES HAVE DONE THE WHOLE PORK PIE. You cannot blame one without blaming the other,

     
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