Unions... I laugh at you, well done.

Qua

Legendary Member
Joined
Aug 3, 2007
Posts
1,600
Media
63
Likes
1,260
Points
583
Location
Boston (Massachusetts, United States)
Sexuality
No Response
Gender
Male
What's even more appalling is Michigan is currently considering right-to-work legislation to open up union-dominated businesses...and it's being attacked on every corner as unfair and unjust! I can't see how coercing a person into union membership and dues as a term of employment is fair.

Well, I'm another college aged kid of Michigan who's getting the hell out as soon as he can. I'm annoyed enough that I'm back here now. The state is a mess, plain and simple. And everyone laments our leaving...they're doing nothing to stop it, and the unions are a huuuge barrier to economic progress here.
 

tripod

Legendary Member
Joined
Jan 17, 2006
Posts
6,666
Media
14
Likes
1,834
Points
333
Location
USA
Sexuality
100% Straight, 0% Gay
Gender
Male
What's even more appalling is Michigan is currently considering right-to-work legislation to open up union-dominated businesses...and it's being attacked on every corner as unfair and unjust! I can't see how coercing a person into union membership and dues as a term of employment is fair.

Well, I'm another college aged kid of Michigan who's getting the hell out as soon as he can. I'm annoyed enough that I'm back here now. The state is a mess, plain and simple. And everyone laments our leaving...they're doing nothing to stop it, and the unions are a huuuge barrier to economic progress here.

I am so glad that you took the time out of your studies to come here and bash unions. You know nothing of labor unions, so why are you pontificating on the subject? My family is from Michigan, I was born there, a lot of my relatives are buried there. I go there once a year to visit my Grandfather who was in the Electrical workers Union. I worked for UPS for a few years and was a member of a labor union while I worked there. Labor unions are for protecting the rights of the worker and demanding decent wages for a day's hard work. Is it the labor union's fault that the asshole South brutally busted up unions to make it a right to work region? They did it with violence and intimidation, which is the way that unions have been fought for over a hundred years.

The jobs eventually left the South too... do you know where they went? To third world countries like China who use slave labor, violence and intimidation to drive down the price of labor. Life for the average manufacturing worker in China is brutal and repressive... they absolutely do NOT have the right to organize which is why life is so hellish there.

Would you like America to be like China? Maybe something softer like... Costa Rica or Guatemala? In China your employers can come over and fucking "cane" you for not working fast enough during your 14 hour workday that you receive NO overtime pay for... workers usually have to sleep in the factory in China 'cause they work such long damn hours!

Is that the vision that you have for America?
 

Rikter8

Expert Member
Joined
Jun 30, 2005
Posts
4,353
Media
1
Likes
125
Points
283
Location
Ann Arbor (Michigan, United States)
Sexuality
90% Gay, 10% Straight
Gender
Male
What's even more appalling is Michigan is currently considering right-to-work legislation to open up union-dominated businesses...and it's being attacked on every corner as unfair and unjust! I can't see how coercing a person into union membership and dues as a term of employment is fair.

Well, I'm another college aged kid of Michigan who's getting the hell out as soon as he can. I'm annoyed enough that I'm back here now. The state is a mess, plain and simple. And everyone laments our leaving...they're doing nothing to stop it, and the unions are a huuuge barrier to economic progress here.

Unions at one time served a very important purpose.
Yes, they helped to level the playing ground, and force big corporations back in their corner from unjust wages etc etc.

Generous Motors, was just that in the 60s and 70s. But as with everything, things get more expensive, and the Old Union Man mentality prevailed of more more more.
Nothing was done to offset inflation, the rising cost of health care, and benefits. The only thing that was benefitting was the union dues and union offices that seemed to pop up everywhere.

Unions today are too powerful. They need to be more stiffly regulated, and more options should be able to Hire/Fire Union employees.

If a Union Man/woman does a shitty job, they just move them to another area - their still on the payroll. they need to be able to fire them on the spot, and NOT collect severance packages.

I cant remember how many times I've walked out to the line and watched union "Brothers and sisters" sleeping on the job, reading a book while parts go whizzing by without inspection.

Unionized work is generally Very Poor. The quality isn't there, because the Care isnt there.
THey do a shitty job - they get paid. They do a good job...they get the same wage - so WHy Try. Why do more, for the same wage?
Do less
Then when somebody else picks up your slack, you file a grievance, get his pay, and Your pay - AND if you have a mouthy committee man, you can get a few days off paid too.
Why work the weekdays for straight time. Drag your feet during the week, then work weekends for double time.
Oh, and do a shitty job - because when you have to re-do it, its more time to waste, more in your pocket, and easier on you.
It's the union man way.

I work in the industry every day. I speak the truth, and the Truth Hurts.

Since a changeover recently at my organization, a new crowd of workers came in. They were estatic to make a lower wage.
Hard work and care took over for about....3 months.
Then they learned the union man way.
Why Try? Who Cares? It's not my vehicle so why should I care?

It isn't funny really. It sad.
Very sad to see a state run into the ground by greed of corporate america, and lack of care of the workers doing the job.
 

tripod

Legendary Member
Joined
Jan 17, 2006
Posts
6,666
Media
14
Likes
1,834
Points
333
Location
USA
Sexuality
100% Straight, 0% Gay
Gender
Male
You are speaking about the individual work ethics of the workers... your sweeping generalization of workers sleeping on the job and reading books while parts whizzed by is a bit much isn't it? Unions providing shitty work is just a matter of your opinion, it isn't by any means a fact. fuck the car manufacturers... I wouldn't buy an American car anyway. The Automotive Unions are a different breed than the rest of the labor unions out there. They have mad problems that are unique to that specific industry. You are laying the blame for the Automotive Industry's demise on the whole premise of a union and that just isn't fair. Sure, there needs to be a better way of firing workers, but that is a complicated issue that doesn't have easy solutions.

Don't blame the labor unions, blame the humans who ran them. The notion of worker's organizing is a beautiful one. Putting all of the power in the hands of the employer like in a Right To Work state is a recipe for disaster.
 

Drifterwood

Superior Member
Joined
Jun 14, 2007
Posts
18,677
Media
0
Likes
2,811
Points
333
Location
Greece
Just to put the record straight about China. Since the beginning of this year every worker has to have a contract of employment. If you wish to get rid of an employee now in China, you have to pay them one month's pay for every year of employment.
 

justine

Experimental Member
Joined
Feb 27, 2007
Posts
77
Media
0
Likes
8
Points
153
Sexuality
No Response
Unions represented the working class. Unions were only able to get increases by watching profits and what the employees hard work did to reach that profits. The unions did not rob the corporations but negotiated increases based on those profits. Now who is watching the profits. When companies are losing money but the CEO are getting multi million dollar pay packages and huge buyouts. Who is now getting the profit surely not the working class.
 

faceking

Cherished Member
Joined
Nov 14, 2004
Posts
7,426
Media
6
Likes
277
Points
208
Location
Mavs, NOR * CAL
Sexuality
100% Straight, 0% Gay
Gender
Male
I don't think that many of you are in a union or have family members in it, or even know anyone that is in a union for that matter, you are all just armchair pundits just sounding off on things that you have heard. Trade unions are responsible for most of the pleasures that we enjoy to this very day, ones like:

a 40 hour workweek
an 8 hour day
overtime
the end of child labor
on the job safety
a minimum wage

You know, stupid shit...

The original good intentions of unions (now manifested into pure evil) was for things like working conditions, child labor, etc....

I work more than 40 hrs, often more than 8 hrs a day... job safety???? shit the state of California doesn't allow the janitors to wax the floor of an office... minimum wage (it's called market rates)....

I'm thankful my profession doesn't have any unions.. otherwise we couldn't hire/fire the best talent, pay market rates, reward over market rates, etc...

Look at the auto workers unions driving GM and Ford into the grave... reminds me of TWA and PanAm in the airline industry, and thusly why/how JetBlue, Southwest, Virgin America, spring up and are profitable out of the gate, while the funking US gov't has to bail out the bloated loathesome union-laden larger airlines.

Unions used to stand for safety, rights and protection... now they are as harmful as (again, good intentions gone VERY awry) as affirmative action for the production and health of the US, the US culture, and the US economy.
 

Rikter8

Expert Member
Joined
Jun 30, 2005
Posts
4,353
Media
1
Likes
125
Points
283
Location
Ann Arbor (Michigan, United States)
Sexuality
90% Gay, 10% Straight
Gender
Male
You are speaking about the individual work ethics of the workers... your sweeping generalization of workers sleeping on the job and reading books while parts whizzed by is a bit much isn't it? Unions providing shitty work is just a matter of your opinion, The Automotive Unions are a different breed than the rest of the labor unions out there. Don't blame the labor unions, blame the humans who ran them. The notion of worker's organizing is a beautiful one. Putting all of the power in the hands of the employer like in a Right To Work state is a recipe for disaster.

You know me, I always get in hot water for sweeping generalizations.

Although the case I cited was hardly a generalization. I saw it with my own eyes, on countless occasions.

I am not familiar with other labor unions, but I would summise the same rules apply. The auto industry has more complex problems, however it should be the unions responsability to keep their members in check

I just had an aluminum fixture built. The union folks bid on it, wanted the job. The welds were so poor, that they fractured when I pressed on them (1/2" thick plate aluminum). Not only were the welds poor, the fixture wasn't even made to print.
What can I do as the engineer? Nothing. It's a union job, and you cant just take it back. You have to submit a Repair order for the same thing you ordered the first time... So you pay for it TWICE.

i think it's great that your proud of the trade. There comes a great amount of pride in unions, and workmanship associated with them.
It's just too bad that people take advantage of the situation, and give the whole idea of Union a bad wrap.

Justine - Yea, we have to bankrupt the companies to make them "Profitable", therefore we need to pay one man billions just to make it happen. That makes sense, doesnt it?
 

yurkon

1st Like
Joined
Feb 15, 2008
Posts
269
Media
0
Likes
1
Points
101
Location
Florida
Sexuality
90% Straight, 10% Gay
Gender
Male
Same experience. At Lockheed they build the f22, Airforce is the customer. Customer wants to come in and run some tests, test is a 3.5 hour test of some instruments, plane in the building. There is a union guy who has a job, the only thing he does is power up the plane when it needs to have electricity to it. To be fair, he does do this for 4 whole planes. It is literally flipping a switch. Non union guy flips it, he's fired. That's the rule.

Airforce gets there at 8:30am, wanna start their test, union fuck(UF) says he can't because his break is at 9, we show up at 9:30, UF no where to be seen. Shows up at 10. We start the test. UF cuts power at 11:45 for lunch, 15 min early btw. (not like he has to clean paint or grease off his hands) He didn't even tell....THE CUSTOMER!! totally f-d the test. Customer, pissed. Same in the afternoon. We waited for the UFs to line up like sheep @4:30pm so they can get their card punched at 5. They literally jog or walk as fast as they can to their cars. After they left, we flipped the switch ourselves.

Lockheed, pays this guy, wait for it, wait for it, $35 an hour all day everyday to do something a 6 year old could do, but with better common sense. We asked the guy to be reasonable and he said everything he did was in the contract. Gets better...UF files a grievence when he checked the log book the next day when he realized we did it with out him. Just to screw with him, we reported he left it on.
 

yurkon

1st Like
Joined
Feb 15, 2008
Posts
269
Media
0
Likes
1
Points
101
Location
Florida
Sexuality
90% Straight, 10% Gay
Gender
Male
I'm not saying I don't like the union guys, but they are soooo rigid.
Different location:
One time i went to the machine shop to have them cut a pair of my pliers in half. I was told gruffly, "Collage, 3 weeks, fill out the paperwork". I politely said, "oh, okay, nevermind, I'll do it myself at home".
He says that's not allowed.
I told him, "well, their my pliers so I'll go cut 'em with a hack saw so I can fit them in a tight spot to get a sparkplug out so I can go dirt biking"
He said, "oh, gimme those", zips through it in 2 seconds, if that and hands em back.

I told him thanks and asked him, so you were serious about the paper work if this was for lockheed? he just said, "yup".

I got to know him over the years, really nice guy. I asked him about the above and why it's that way and he told me privately he hates it and that it's stupid that it should take 3 weeks for 2 seconds of work, but has to be that way because if he doesn't follow the union protocol he'll get screwed any number of ways and used the example of his car getting damaged, but he'll tolerate it all because he has one in college and hopefully has another won bound for college in 3 years and hopes some day some UF (his term, but used the words) will someday refer to his sons as "college" and his legacy will be that future generations will all be "on the other side, like you collage". He also told me that he hopes his sons aren't ashamed of him for the work he did. ----Like I said, great guy, sweet guy, family man, never bought himself much, put it all into his kids.

Up until I got to know him, I assumed he liked his union, but privately he didn't like it at all.
 

tripod

Legendary Member
Joined
Jan 17, 2006
Posts
6,666
Media
14
Likes
1,834
Points
333
Location
USA
Sexuality
100% Straight, 0% Gay
Gender
Male
Those union stories were AWESOME! I loved them, they were really detailed and well written! The unions are like a mirror... a conservative looks at them and sees waste and needless red tape. The liberal looks at them and sees a valuable entity protecting worker's rights and conditions. Those true stories you told are truly the ugly underbelly of unions, nothing here on earth is immune from corruption... nothing.

Faceking, you do have a point there... I have to agree with you that the current model of unions for a good number of trades is now defunct. I actually wish that the current trade unions would dissolve in favor of a newer and more modern way of labor organization. The majority of the unions are all pissing up a rope with declining memberships and the subsequent loss of workplace influence... and ultimately relevance.

I am sooo glad that we all agree that the notion of labor organization is a good one, I think that was the whole point I was trying to defend the entire time.

Those stories remind me of the union guy Mash in "Are You Being Served", everyone hated him, but he was a stand up guy and didn't take any shit from the management. He had a nice stiff upper lip, which is what I wish all workers around the world had too. :smile:
 

SpeedoGuy

Sexy Member
Joined
May 18, 2004
Posts
4,166
Media
7
Likes
41
Points
258
Age
60
Location
Pacific Northwest, USA
Sexuality
99% Straight, 1% Gay
Gender
Male
. I have to agree with you that the current model of unions for a good number of trades is now defunct. I actually wish that the current trade unions would dissolve in favor of a newer and more modern way of labor organization. The majority of the unions are all pissing up a rope with declining memberships and the subsequent loss of workplace influence... and ultimately relevance.

Decline of union clout courtesy of......exploitation of developing nations' workers...er... I mean...globalization.
 
D

deleted213967

Guest
Decline of union clout courtesy of......exploitation of developing nations' workers...er... I mean...globalization.

Unionized workers also benefit from globalization as consumers in the form of lower prices and "bargains" they often avidly seek out.
 

faceking

Cherished Member
Joined
Nov 14, 2004
Posts
7,426
Media
6
Likes
277
Points
208
Location
Mavs, NOR * CAL
Sexuality
100% Straight, 0% Gay
Gender
Male
The liberal looks at them and sees a valuable entity protecting worker's rights and conditions.

Tripod, you are one of my favorite opposite view guys here. Kudos.

But going to take that point....

Conditions? Rights?

Let's take the most biggest and powerful unions in the country.

The conditions in an auto factory????? the luxury.. the inability for anyone to get fired... there's a myriad of factual evidence of ineptitude, much less drugs/drunkedness, etc.. by workers that can't get fired, even after 5, 6 7 instances of inappropriateness (loosely defined).

Come on.... teachers unions are the worst for the record... how is it that these poor soul sink enough of their income into the union, yet make less than a downtown parcel courier with a GED, 18 piercings, enough ink in their skin to send Bic bankrupt, and a decent arrest record.

The Taft-Hartley Act was a well-lubed handshake buttfuck, IMHO.
 

faceking

Cherished Member
Joined
Nov 14, 2004
Posts
7,426
Media
6
Likes
277
Points
208
Location
Mavs, NOR * CAL
Sexuality
100% Straight, 0% Gay
Gender
Male
Decline of union clout courtesy of......exploitation of developing nations' workers...er... I mean...globalization.

Free market enterprise.. without it... those same 'exploited' workers of developing nations would be doing ... what instead?????

Dying of _______ and seeing very little of the $800M in aid the US would be sending their heads of state....
 

tripod

Legendary Member
Joined
Jan 17, 2006
Posts
6,666
Media
14
Likes
1,834
Points
333
Location
USA
Sexuality
100% Straight, 0% Gay
Gender
Male
Let's take the most biggest and powerful unions in the country.

The conditions in an auto factory????? the luxury.. the inability for anyone to get fired... there's a myriad of factual evidence of ineptitude, much less drugs/drunkedness, etc.. by workers that can't get fired, even after 5, 6 7 instances of inappropriateness (loosely defined).

I highly agree! This is one of the most ridiculous things about the unions... since when did literally preventing workers from losing their jobs become a labor issue? It is stupid and is one of the things that has given unions their bad reputation. It's a useless practice that has pretty much done more harm than good

Come on.... teachers unions are the worst for the record... how is it that these poor soul sink enough of their income into the union, yet make less than a downtown parcel courier with a GED, 18 piercings, enough ink in their skin to send Bic bankrupt, and a decent arrest record.

That probably has more to do with allocated tax dollars and budgetary considerations, but I get it... they have a "powerful" union that has done little to nothing for them, I again, highly agree!


Free market enterprise.. without it... those same 'exploited' workers of developing nations would be doing ... what instead?????

I dunno... that's a good question. The Free Market is overrated though, there has to be more to life than the highest profit at the lowest cost...
 

swordfishME

Expert Member
Joined
Sep 28, 2006
Posts
960
Media
0
Likes
131
Points
263
Location
DFW Texas
Sexuality
80% Gay, 20% Straight
Gender
Male
In this day and age, Unions are responsible in a big part for killing corporate america's competitive edge. In this world of globalization (or exploitation) there seems to be no place for unions or their ilk. Unions has gone from being the supporters of the rights of the little guy to a thugocracy. If you look at how China are India are prospering it is because they don't have this kind of crap to deal with- you have to work hard to keep your job, if you don't the alternative is to starve to death- the way it should be.
 

D_Martin van Burden

Account Disabled
Joined
Oct 6, 2002
Posts
3,229
Media
0
Likes
41
Points
258
I don't think that many of you are in a union or have family members in it, or even know anyone that is in a union for that matter, you are all just armchair pundits just sounding off on things that you have heard. Trade unions are responsible for most of the pleasures that we enjoy to this very day, ones like:

a 40 hour workweek
an 8 hour day
overtime
the end of child labor
on the job safety
a minimum wage

You know, stupid shit...

It's official. Tripod is my hero.
 

Qua

Legendary Member
Joined
Aug 3, 2007
Posts
1,600
Media
63
Likes
1,260
Points
583
Location
Boston (Massachusetts, United States)
Sexuality
No Response
Gender
Male
It's a little gauche to suppose that simply because I'm only 20 (all 20 of those years spent in Detroit as the son of an auto engineer; neither union nor management) I know nothing of labor unions. I understand the principles they stand for, and sure they're noble ones. How well those principles are implemented and balanced against the self-serving interests present in any large organization is another issue

Note that I was only speaking of the current state of auto unions and the auto industry and their effects on the current Michigan economy, not the general nature of all unions. Less than a week ago my dad came home complaining of workers at a lab refusing to run tests for him under the guise of not being allowed (or required depending on the perspective) to under union contract. Which was utter bullshit, as subsequent calls to the legal department had revealed. Now, why on EARTH should an engineer have to call the legal department to get the engineering labworkers to do their job, and why on earth should they use the excuse of union contracts to illegitimately shirk work they just don't want to do? The assumption was it was a magic word that instantly would get all salaried employees to go hands-off for fear of inciting anything. How that and behavior like it is excusable or indicative of my knowing nothing of issues is beyond me. So is that not red tape and bureaucratic ineffeciency and an impediment to progress? Abuses occur on both sides of the fence. And I assure you, that is not a rare occurance in my dad's daily work, though this example was very glaring.