Universal Basic Income

wallyj84

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What do you guys think of universal basic income? I know there are a lot of different approaches to this idea. I like Andrew Yang's freedom dividend, but there are other ways of implementing it like a negative income tax.

Do you like the idea of UBI? Which form would you like for UBI to take? If you don't like UBI do you prefer?
 

keenobserver

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The U.S. cannot even agree that healthcare is a basic right. The idea that enough of the populace would embrace UBI is beyond the realm of impossible. Totally. Completely. Impossible. This is a country that votes against its own interests every day, every week, every year, for decades. There are great, workable ideas here, I do not deny it, but it is just beyond the realm of possible in the U.S. I applaud Yang for really working hard to make his case, but his great-great-great-grandchildren will never live long enough to see it in the U.S. As a country we are just that fucking stupid.
 

wallyj84

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Thank you for the links.

The U.S. cannot even agree that healthcare is a basic right. The idea that enough of the populace would embrace UBI is beyond the realm of impossible. Totally. Completely. Impossible. This is a country that votes against its own interests every day, every week, every year, for decades. There are great, workable ideas here, I do not deny it, but it is just beyond the realm of possible in the U.S. I applaud Yang for really working hard to make his case, but his great-great-great-grandchildren will never live long enough to see it in the U.S. As a country we are just that fucking stupid.

I don't disagree with you, but let's approach this from a different perspective.

Maybe it is less that people are voting against their own self interest than the best interests of society as a whole don't totally align with each individual's best interests. In the case of healthcare, most people are insured by their employer and outside of the occaisional broken arm or other minor expense won't have any truly expensive medical expenses until they reach retirement age. Taking that into consideration, doesn't it make sense that most people would be opposed to changing a system that works just fine for them?

This is the brilliance of Yang's freedom dividend proposal. Everyone gets it and because it is just cash, the benefit is obvious everyone. Something like healthcare is difficult for the common person to really wrap their head around and the benefits aren't really spread equally to everyone. Everyone getting $1000 a month? Everyone can understand that and see the way it would benefit their lives.
 
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keenobserver

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Thank you for the links.



I don't disagree with you, but let's approach this from a different perspective.

Maybe it is less that people are voting against their own self interest than the best interests of society as a whole don't totally align with each individual's best interests. In the case of healthcare, most people are insured by their employer and outside of the occaisional broken arm or other minor expense won't have any truly expensive medical expenses until they reach retirement age. Taking that into consideration, doesn't it make sense that most people would be opposed to changing a system that works just fine for them?

This is the brilliance of Yang's freedom dividend proposal. Everyone gets it and because it is just cash, the benefit is obvious everyone. Something like healthcare is difficult for the common person to really wrap their head around and the benefits aren't really spread equally to everyone. Everyone getting $1000 a month? Everyone can understand that and see the way it would benefit their lives.

Most people are no longer insured by their employer - ask any small business owner. I know three who were bankrupted because they could not get insurance, even though they tried - between pre-existing conditions and premiums they were shut out and each was hit with medical costs that were obscene. Yet, they hated Obamacare. Poor people in this country have been conditioned to believe that wealth is reserved for the good and best people and they deserve it and to tax it is communist. The average person fails to see "the benefits for everyone." That is just their reality. I like Yang's ideas - I really need to study them more, but he's not nuts, but the society he is trying to change is.

Again, I would love to see Yang make his case, but even though the country changes everyday, people are resistant to the idea of change and resistant to the idea of improving the lives of others, even when they are the "others."

We will see - thanks to Yang we are seeing the first genuine "change candidate" on a national stage.
 

wallyj84

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Most people are no longer insured by their employer - ask any small business owner. I know three who were bankrupted because they could not get insurance, even though they tried - between pre-existing conditions and premiums they were shut out and each was hit with medical costs that were obscene. Yet, they hated Obamacare. Poor people in this country have been conditioned to believe that wealth is reserved for the good and best people and they deserve it and to tax it is communist. The average person fails to see "the benefits for everyone." That is just their reality. I like Yang's ideas - I really need to study them more, but he's not nuts, but the society he is trying to change is.

Again, I would love to see Yang make his case, but even though the country changes everyday, people are resistant to the idea of change and resistant to the idea of improving the lives of others, even when they are the "others."

We will see - thanks to Yang we are seeing the first genuine "change candidate" on a national stage.

Healthcare is not the subject of this thread. I was just using it as an example. I still say that it's main problem is that the benefits are not clear and obvious for everyone.

What is it about UBI specifically that will keep it from being implemented?
 

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Healthcare is not the subject of this thread. I was just using it as an example. I still say that it's main problem is that the benefits are not clear and obvious for everyone.

What is it about UBI specifically that will keep it from being implemented?
I guess it's the idea of "getting something for free" - we live in a society that get taught you have to earn everything. If you get it for free you become lazy.

The fear that lazy people could take away something from you is the reason why people reject UBI.
 

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Healthcare is not the subject of this thread. I was just using it as an example. I still say that it's main problem is that the benefits are not clear and obvious for everyone.

What is it about UBI specifically that will keep it from being implemented?

Healthcare was an example of why people are resistant to positive change. I pretty much explained why I feel people will resist UBI.
 

wallyj84

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I guess it's the idea of "getting something for free" - we live in a society that get taught you have to earn everything. If you get it for free you become lazy.

The fear that lazy people could take away something from you is the reason why people reject UBI.

That is a fair point and I think a lot of people would use that kind of reasoning against UBI. But I still think more people would want the money for themselves.


Healthcare was an example of why people are resistant to positive change. I pretty much explained why I feel people will resist UBI.

But the positive change with healthcare isn't as obvious as it would be with UBI. UBI would be a much easier sell.
 

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That is a fair point and I think a lot of people would use that kind of reasoning against UBI. But I still think more people would want the money for themselves.
There been polls about it. While the majority thinks (around 80%) "if others get UBI they become lazy and stop working". If you ask the same people how they would act, they say they would keep on working.

People think why more negative about others than about themselves.

I guess only those who would see a massive benefit for themselves would support the idea. Everyone else would fear to lose more as he gains.
But the positive change with healthcare isn't as obvious as it would be with UBI. UBI would be a much easier sell.
I would argue it's the opposite.
It's way more easy to explain the benefits of healthcare as of UBI.

Free healthcare is spending money for a single purpose.
It seems to be manageable and shows a simple to explain benefit. - you don't have to die.

UBI is way more complex.
At first you have to explain why everyone gets the money. No matter if they earn $0, $50,000, or $1,000,000 a year.
Next you give the money without a clear purpose. No one has to bee in real need... this means people could spend it for everything - holiday for example. And I guess many are willing to finance your health treatment, but not your holidays.

Cash is seen as something different to services.

Some will argue they aren't willing to finance more families with many children... they already have 5 children and she is pregnant again? They only fuck for the UBI and are too lazy to work. - in Germany you get at least €150 per month and Child (that's nearly nothing), but still people argue this way about families with a lot of children.

The benefits are hard to explain... happiness and less stress. We are so used to have no happiness but a lot of stress that we can't think about a world werew it would be the other way around.
Instead of this we focus on possible negative effects.
 

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It's an OK idea, but the truth is that the bourgeoisie can always do more with, and leverage more power from, any equal amount of funds (or even somewhat lesser amounts of funds), because of the various forms of capital (including social) that they already have adjacent to it, which allows them to exploit new capital more effectively. Therefore, while a UBI might serve as a temporary bandaid for some social problems associated with poverty, it will only be temporary, and besides will fall short of addressing the root issues of the socio-economic reality. Far more significant is continuing to fight for the building up of the working class through civic institutions, social services, labor organization, and education.
 
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In Europe the social welfare system is more advanced than the USA, and therefore it is fair to assume that we can't really understand each other's perspectives on this issue.

In Europe, because we have social welfare, the question is whether we change universal care systems into a UBI system where people have to look after themselves. In the advanced European economies there is little debate concerning additional funds for new welfare services, though an aging population is making the existing ones more costly.

If people can look after themselves, then I would give them money. I also wouldn't tax people on the first $25,000 of earnings and so keep a significant gap between UBI and earned wages.

I would keep a smaller State Welfare system for people who can't look after themselves, and other general programmes.
 
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wallyj84

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There been polls about it. While the majority thinks (around 80%) "if others get UBI they become lazy and stop working". If you ask the same people how they would act, they say they would keep on working.

People think why more negative about others than about themselves.

I guess only those who would see a massive benefit for themselves would support the idea. Everyone else would fear to lose more as he gains.
I would argue it's the opposite.
It's way more easy to explain the benefits of healthcare as of UBI.

Free healthcare is spending money for a single purpose.
It seems to be manageable and shows a simple to explain benefit. - you don't have to die.

UBI is way more complex.
At first you have to explain why everyone gets the money. No matter if they earn $0, $50,000, or $1,000,000 a year.
Next you give the money without a clear purpose. No one has to bee in real need... this means people could spend it for everything - holiday for example. And I guess many are willing to finance your health treatment, but not your holidays.

Cash is seen as something different to services.

Some will argue they aren't willing to finance more families with many children... they already have 5 children and she is pregnant again? They only fuck for the UBI and are too lazy to work. - in Germany you get at least €150 per month and Child (that's nearly nothing), but still people argue this way about families with a lot of children.

The benefits are hard to explain... happiness and less stress. We are so used to have no happiness but a lot of stress that we can't think about a world werew it would be the other way around.
Instead of this we focus on possible negative effects.

I completely disagree in regards to the healthcare vs UBI ease of explaining thing.

Healthcare is very complicated and there are many people who don't even understand how insurance works. You will get no where trying to explain to people why a single payer system is better than the current employer based model. That is a lot of why healthcare reform often times fails in the US.

You're looking at the benefits of UBI in the wrong way. The benefit isnt that it will make your life less stressed. That might happen, but the real benefit will be how having an extra $1000 in your budget can improve a person's life. That is something everyone can understand.

I think the biggest obstacle to UBI would be the stern father mentality that guides a lot on the right.
 
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The U.S. cannot even agree that healthcare is a basic right. The idea that enough of the populace would embrace UBI is beyond the realm of impossible. Totally. Completely. Impossible. This is a country that votes against its own interests every day, every week, every year, for decades. There are great, workable ideas here, I do not deny it, but it is just beyond the realm of possible in the U.S. I applaud Yang for really working hard to make his case, but his great-great-great-grandchildren will never live long enough to see it in the U.S. As a country we are just that fucking stupid.
Well put!
 
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Jason

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UBI may be the future but the UK is not ready for it yet.

Right now the UK has an open border with the EU. UBI would lead to most of the EU moving to the UK, as UK levels of UBI would be higher than average salary in very many EU nations. Finland's experiment (which has been abandoned) gave UBI to people already in Finland.

Once the UK is out of the EU it may well be something that will be looked at. The simplified benefit system of Universal Credit really hasn't worked, so,we do need something else. UBI could be the way to go.
 

wallyj84

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UBI may be the future but the UK is not ready for it yet.

Right now the UK has an open border with the EU. UBI would lead to most of the EU moving to the UK, as UK levels of UBI would be higher than average salary in very many EU nations. Finland's experiment (which has been abandoned) gave UBI to people already in Finland.

Once the UK is out of the EU it may well be something that will be looked at. The simplified benefit system of Universal Credit really hasn't worked, so,we do need something else. UBI could be the way to go.

I think you could easily solve this problem by restricting the UBI to citizens.
 
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Perados

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UBI may be the future but the UK is not ready for it yet.

Right now the UK has an open border with the EU. UBI would lead to most of the EU moving to the UK, as UK levels of UBI would be higher than average salary in very many EU nations. Finland's experiment (which has been abandoned) gave UBI to people already in Finland.

Once the UK is out of the EU it may well be something that will be looked at. The simplified benefit system of Universal Credit really hasn't worked, so,we do need something else. UBI could be the way to go.
Again you create a problem where is none.
I said it before and will say it again... Britain chooses to grant everyone access to its benefit system. It has nothing to do with the EU.
In Germany, for example, you have to work for some while before you get access to the benefit system.

The EU regulated the access to the health care system as well. The home nation has to pay for every treatment of its citizens abroad, as long as they pay it at home as well. If the home nation doesn't, Britain is free to demand the money from the person that recieved the treatment.

You could do similar with the UBI.


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I will keep on exposing this fake arguement every time you post it.
 
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