Universal Health Care

SpeedoGuy

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If you receive emergency room care, don't have insurance, and can't pay for it then, hospitals will bill you. If you don't pay it, more often than not they'll write it off sooner or later.

Exactly. And those written off costs are, sooner or later, born either by taxpayers or insurance providers or health plan consumers or all.

So, because of this, the USA already has a form of socialized medicine. Its just extremely poorly organized.

The real problem is walking into a doctor's office without an insurance card. They expect payment upon services rendered and if you can't pay, you are SOL.

Leaving no other choice but an expensive emergency room visit, as you pointed out.

In the end, the name of the game for US health care providers as well as consumers is: How to get somebody else to pay for it.
 
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deleted15807

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Ok before I took my current job in the meteorology field, let me tell you a few things. I worked for United Health Care based out of Minnesota. Our division of the company was responsible for claims. We had people in TN that we administered Medicaid to, Americhoice is the name of the program. If someone went to the ER for what was deemed a non emergent situation we would NOT pay the claim period, no questions asked and the person would be responsible for 100% of the cost.

Exactly my point earlier. Health care in the US is run by the insurance companies. Ultimately they dictate who gets care and who doesn't and who pays for it. They in effect are the invisible person sitting between doctor and patient determining care.
 

dong20

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Isn't this all a waste of time? It's not like you or I have a board of directors meeting to attend. Or what we say is going to have an effect on governemnt policy.

You give legal justification for emergency 'attention' but in reality it's inadequate and that is all I'm saying. Life expectancy in the United States is behind 40 other countries. And access to health care is one main reason.

Then why are are you arguing with me. No, wait...:tongue:
 

dong20

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If you receive emergency room care, don't have insurance, and can't pay for it then, hospitals will bill you. If you don't pay it, more often than not they'll write it off sooner or later.

The real problem is walking into a doctor's office without an insurance card. They expect payment upon services rendered and if you can't pay, you are SOL.

See you get it.:biggrin1:

Exactly. And those written off costs are, sooner or later, born either by taxpayers or insurance providers or health plan consumers or all.

So, because of this, the USA already has a form of socialized medicine. Its just extremely poorly organized.

Leaving no other choice but an expensive emergency room visit, as you pointed out.

In the end, the name of the game for US health care providers as well as consumers is: How to get somebody else to pay for it.

So do you.:biggrin1:
 
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deleted15807

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In the end, the name of the game for US health care providers as well as consumers is: How to get somebody else to pay for it.

All one needs do is look at a typical claim form. All over the form are questions that the insurance company can and will use to get out of paying a goddamn thing.

1.) Are you insured by any other carrier?
2.) Is this claim related to employment?
3.) Is claim related to an accident?

Then of course come the deductibles, the co-pays, the coverage limits, the eligibility requirements, the allowable amounts, etc. All designed to keep the payments, if any, as little as possible.
 

viking1

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Exactly. And those written off costs are, sooner or later, born either by taxpayers or insurance providers or health plan consumers or all.

In the end, the name of the game for US health care providers as well as consumers is: How to get somebody else to pay for it.

Somebody else is never going to pay for it. The people pay for everything.
All the money the government has comes from taxes. Who pays these taxes? The citizens of the USA. The government provides more services, taxes will have to be raised. They mandate that services must be provided, but don't pay for them, the costs rise for those who do have to pay. The only solution is to go to a non profit system. Do away with all medical insurance, and make the whole system non profit including the production of drugs. This ain't gonna happen anyway soon. There are drawbacks to this as well. Just ask the citizens of countries with socialized health care.
However, it would probably be better than the current system for most of the people in this country.
 

B_InDepth

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common sense says if everybody in the country had health insurance it would be the same as if you bought it yourself... cause how does the govt get the money to pay for it..? unless they print more money or put us farther in debt to pay for it.. which is even worse... our govt is teaching people to be irresponsible by giving them free healthcare... the way the govt should do it is get ride of medical insurance companies and the big buisnesses that own hospitals.. then force hospitals to remain mainly independent so there would be competition.. why would you keep a middle man (insurance companies) involved if the govt was trying to make healthcare affordable... does having a middle man involved ever make anything cheaper.? ? people have to be more responsible for themselves you cant rely on the govt for everything.. someday there may not be a govt then what would happen... socialism is when a govt takes care of the people in everyway.. also known as a slave state... our forefather created a democracy which gives everyman the inalliable rights of life liberty and freedom... and when you pay 50%of your income in taxes and fees to pay for BIG GOVT and socialized healthcare i think having no money prevents you from freedom and life because you have to work your life and freedom away..!


think aboout it people
 

Ethyl

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In the end, the name of the game for US health care providers as well as consumers is: How to get somebody else to pay for it.

Herein lies our biggest problem: the overload of bureaucracy. If we could cut that in half, we could offer so much more to the public. But no, we insist on making mountains of paperwork and shuffling the responsibility back and forth.
 

viking1

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Herein lies our biggest problem: the overload of bureaucracy. If we could cut that in half, we could offer so much more to the public. But no, we insist on making mountains of paperwork and shuffling the responsibility back and forth.

Exactly! That's how the government bloats and sustains itself. It's the snowball effect. Those who work for the government aren't responsible to the people. You can't go deal with someone else when you get bad service, like you can in the private business sector. We can vote, and that's all we can do.
When the candidates are all alike, what good does that even do? They all have the same end goals, even if their means are a bit different...
 

SpeedoGuy

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Exactly! That's how the government bloats and sustains itself. It's the snowball effect. Those who work for the government aren't responsible to the people.

I've worked for the government for 22 years. I've yet to meet a fellow government employee who set out to waste time and money. But I'm not going to get into that here.

I'd add that private insurance companies also have a vested interest in keeping the claims process as byzantine, bloated and confusing as possible. Why? Because it confuses and discourages claimants. That serves the interests of insurance companies. Anyone who doubts that can look and see how many lawyers are employed in the USA forcing insurance companies to cough up what they actually owe claimaints.
 

simcha

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To any of you who think that you don't get turned away at the emergency room if you don't have insurance or medicaid or medicare, you need to work with homeless youth who have no coverage.

Here in Alameda County if you don't have any coverage, you can only go to Highland Hospital in Oakland. This county is very large and it can take over 2 hours in traffic to reach Highland if you are in the eastern part of the county. But if you have no coverage, you have NO choice.

If you are in an emergency, yes they will stabilize you at another hospital but once you are "stabilized" (and "stable" is defined by the hospital in question, not you) you are taken to Highland Hospital.

Now, I've been to Highland Hospital with my clients. I've waited over six hours to see anyone with my clients who have been stabbed or had broken limbs. Even a bullet wound is no guarantee of immediate emergency care there. Since this is the "County Hospital" and they MUST take all of the people who are not covered, they are swamped with patients 24/7. And they are highly under-funded. That means that you do get sub-standard care and you must wait sometimes even ten hours to be seen (one of my clients stayed overnight once in their waiting room at the emergency room). And the hospital is encouraged to discharge you ASAP, whether or not you've had adequate care. All they have to do is prove they've given "some" care, even if it's just a prescription for hydrocodone (vicodin) or tylenol with codeine.

And follow-ups are almost impossible to schedule. If you have an ongoing problem after the emergency and you are forced to go to Highland for ongoing care, you will wait months for an appointment. And if you are lucky enough to get an appointment you will not be seen at the time you are actually scheduled. You will have to wait a couple of hours because the doctor most likely is way over-booked.

And let's talk dental, shall we? There are clinics that will provide free cleaning. They might fill small cavities, maybe. But they will NOT do extractions if they are at all complicated. Most of my clients who are 18-25 years old need their wisdom teeth extracted. These clinics won't do it. Therefore, they get infected. And if they get infected and it becomes an emergency, they are forced to go to Highland Hospital where they will wait a minimum of six hours to be seen. So instead of taking care of the problem and preventing an emergency, the system has created an expensive emergency it will largely ignore if you let it.

I've found one place in the area that will see people for prescribing eye glasses and providing them free of charge if they have no coverage and are poor enough.

The thing is, you have to make next to nothing in order to receive any of these services. I'm talking about $12,000 or less. You cannot live anywhere in the Bay Area on that kind of money. If you make more, you will lose your benefits (Medicaid and SSI if you have it). Also if you have SSI you cannot have any more than $2000 to your name or you get cut off. This keeps people poor who are on the system because there is NO incentive to make more because all you'll be is like me, working poor and barely able to make the bills. At least if you qualify for SSI and Medicaid you are guaranteed health care and you can even qualify for section 8. It's actually more stable than to be working poor in fear of losing your job and not being able to make bills if you do...

So, all you people who think that the situation is just fine and that you cannot be denied adequate care don't have to deal with the system at all or you would think differently because you would know from experience that getting care is extremely difficult and most likely you will be under-treated.

It's easy for people who are truly middle class and who have health care and who have never had to experience what it is like to be without health care to think that everything is fine.

The true middle class is actually small. Middle class means that you have a good paying job where you are able to save something for emergencies and you can save for retirement.

Most of us are working poor. We live off of credit and/or live paycheck to paycheck working at jobs that pay just above the actual poverty level (not the ill-conceived federal poverty level).

And even people in the real middle class can face a catastrophe if they lose their job, have a lapse in coverage, and experience the onset of a catastrophic and disabling illness. Suddenly, you'd be singing a different tune about universal healthcare.
 

B_NineInchCock_160IQ

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Health care available to all citizens. No one will be turned away form a Hospital Emergency Room for not having money.

We already have that.

[edit] I worked in an emergency room for 2 years. Nobody was turned away. homeless. illegal immigrants that we KNEW were giving us false SSNs. (we could look it up in the computer, but weren't allowed to ask them for a real ID or real billing address, lest it be construed we were turning someone away). everyone waited the same amount of time and received the same level of care.

[further edit] that's not to say that everything is perfect and rosy. Because Americans insist on the best technology and doctors around, because the insurance companies want to profit, because doctors are overpaid, because of the litigious nature of our society and outrageous malpractice insurance premiums, because of the fact that there are SO MANY people who never pay their hospital or emergency room bills.... the bills for people who DO end up having to pay are ridiculous. As are the insurance premiums for an individual without a group health plan. If you go to the ER you can get around this by giving false information or no information. They won't turn you away. The problem comes when it's time to get follow-up care or a prescription filled or something along those lines. Then there are options (medicaid, free clinics, payment programs, etc etc), but those options require jumping through a lot of hoops, waiting in a lot of lines, and often are more trouble than they're worth.

Just pointing out that by mem's definition of universal healthcare, the US already has universal healthcare.
 
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deleted15807

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To any of you who think that you don't get turned away at the emergency room if you don't have insurance or medicaid or medicare, you need to work with homeless youth who have no coverage.

Here in Alameda County if you don't have any coverage, you can only go to Highland Hospital in Oakland. This county is very large and it can take over 2 hours in traffic to reach Highland if you are in the eastern part of the county. But if you have no coverage, you have NO choice.

If you are in an emergency, yes they will stabilize you at another hospital but once you are "stabilized" (and "stable" is defined by the hospital in question, not you) you are taken to Highland Hospital.

Now, I've been to Highland Hospital with my clients. I've waited over six hours to see anyone with my clients who have been stabbed or had broken limbs. Even a bullet wound is no guarantee of immediate emergency care there. Since this is the "County Hospital" and they MUST take all of the people who are not covered, they are swamped with patients 24/7. And they are highly under-funded. That means that you do get sub-standard care and you must wait sometimes even ten hours to be seen (one of my clients stayed overnight once in their waiting room at the emergency room). And the hospital is encouraged to discharge you ASAP, whether or not you've had adequate care. All they have to do is prove they've given "some" care, even if it's just a prescription for hydrocodone (vicodin) or tylenol with codeine.

And follow-ups are almost impossible to schedule. If you have an ongoing problem after the emergency and you are forced to go to Highland for ongoing care, you will wait months for an appointment. And if you are lucky enough to get an appointment you will not be seen at the time you are actually scheduled. You will have to wait a couple of hours because the doctor most likely is way over-booked.

And let's talk dental, shall we? There are clinics that will provide free cleaning. They might fill small cavities, maybe. But they will NOT do extractions if they are at all complicated. Most of my clients who are 18-25 years old need their wisdom teeth extracted. These clinics won't do it. Therefore, they get infected. And if they get infected and it becomes an emergency, they are forced to go to Highland Hospital where they will wait a minimum of six hours to be seen. So instead of taking care of the problem and preventing an emergency, the system has created an expensive emergency it will largely ignore if you let it.

I've found one place in the area that will see people for prescribing eye glasses and providing them free of charge if they have no coverage and are poor enough.

The thing is, you have to make next to nothing in order to receive any of these services. I'm talking about $12,000 or less. You cannot live anywhere in the Bay Area on that kind of money. If you make more, you will lose your benefits (Medicaid and SSI if you have it). Also if you have SSI you cannot have any more than $2000 to your name or you get cut off. This keeps people poor who are on the system because there is NO incentive to make more because all you'll be is like me, working poor and barely able to make the bills. At least if you qualify for SSI and Medicaid you are guaranteed health care and you can even qualify for section 8. It's actually more stable than to be working poor in fear of losing your job and not being able to make bills if you do...

So, all you people who think that the situation is just fine and that you cannot be denied adequate care don't have to deal with the system at all or you would think differently because you would know from experience that getting care is extremely difficult and most likely you will be under-treated.

It's easy for people who are truly middle class and who have health care and who have never had to experience what it is like to be without health care to think that everything is fine.

The true middle class is actually small. Middle class means that you have a good paying job where you are able to save something for emergencies and you can save for retirement.

Most of us are working poor. We live off of credit and/or live paycheck to paycheck working at jobs that pay just above the actual poverty level (not the ill-conceived federal poverty level).

And even people in the real middle class can face a catastrophe if they lose their job, have a lapse in coverage, and experience the onset of a catastrophic and disabling illness. Suddenly, you'd be singing a different tune about universal healthcare.

Wow thanks for that very eye opening account. Heart breaking almost when you think this country can spend $10 billion a month in Iraq and Afghanistan.

The Center for Health and Health Care in Schools - Crisis in the Emergency Room
 

PussyWellington

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It is a mark of a civilized country to provide free essential medical care. The United States needs to stop health care being PROFIT BASED and focused. Get rid of the FDA. Stop eating crap food. Stop taking so many prescription drugs.
 

B_NineInchCock_160IQ

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Actually no, some are turned away for Emergency Rooms.

actually, no, at the ED in Inova Fairfax Hospital in Falls Church, VA nobody has ever been turned away for any reason. and the law prohibits this from happening anywhere else, as well. If you know of some place that this did happen, why don't you report it and get the place fined or shut down? Ambulances are sometimes diverted if an emergency room is too full, but this has nothing to do with the patient's ability to pay and if you walk through the door, you'll be triaged and seen by a nurse or doctor before you go, unless you just get tired of waiting.
 
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deleted15807

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Health care available to all citizens. No one will be turned away form a Hospital Emergency Room for not having money.

The premise should be restated. Emergency room care is a small subset of Universal Health Care by most agreed upon definitions.
 

Mem

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The premise should be restated. Universal Health Care is a small subset of emergency room care by most agreed upon definitions.

I know I should have not answered the question. It is much more than that, but I got baited.

Americans do not want health care for all, as long as taxes go up.

Many of the people against Universal Health Care will be for it when they are bankrupted by a catastrophic illness in their family.
 

SpeedoGuy

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...and when you pay 50%of your income in taxes and fees to pay for BIG GOVT and socialized healthcare i think having no money prevents you from freedom and life because you have to work your life and freedom away..!

think aboout it people

Clue time: Being so indebted with even moderate medical bills as to have to work your life and freedom away to pay for BIG INSURANCE is hardly a more liberating experience.