US Auto Industry asking for $50 Billion bailout...is it finally time to say NO?

Discussion in 'Et Cetera, Et Cetera' started by earllogjam, Nov 6, 2008.

  1. earllogjam

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    I think it's time to say NO, no more taxpayer bailout to an industry that consistently is burying it's own grave by making shoddy products, run by marketing MBA types with no knowledge of how a car is actually built or engineered and has the hubris to expect the taxpayer to foot the bill for all their bad decisions.

    They are reaping what they have sown for the last 2 decades. At what point are we just subsidizing and perpetuating incompetence and mediocrity?

    Bloomberg.com: U.S.
     
  2. sargon20

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    Yes they have but now is not the time to prove a point.
     
  3. D_Bob_Crotchitch

    D_Bob_Crotchitch New Member

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    There is this little thing called the domino effect. If the US auto makers go out of business, all the parts makers, battery makers, tire makers, etcetera suffer. They suffer, the economy takes a huge hit. It takes a hit, so do you.
     
  4. Principessa

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    You gotta be kidding me?!? Hell No! Don't give them a buy out. :mad:
    What are they gonna do with it? Make more gas guzzlers that fall apart in a strong wind. Pffftt, :yuck:
     
  5. D_Bob_Crotchitch

    D_Bob_Crotchitch New Member

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    US auto makers have paid social security, retirements, and health care benefits that the asian companies have not. It's really easy to slam them when they are down but let them go bankrupt, and the nation will suffer. You will be at the mercy of foreign owned companies for all your auto needs. They are not going to feel kind to you or your nation. The biggest problem the big 3 has faced is their reliance on the citizens love of gas guzzling autos. When gas skyrocketed, the big 3 took a huge hit. They need help to recover. I do not know if it's possible or not. I feel more inclined to give them a loan than hire secretaries for congress that can't type or buy $750 toilet seats for the air force.
     
  6. SpeedoGuy

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    If auto manufacturers need money, why can't they just apply for loans at prevailing rates just like anyone else? Or why don't they issue new stock to raise money? If they're serious about improving their product, there'll be lots of loans available and shareholders to buy in.
     
  7. D_Bob_Crotchitch

    D_Bob_Crotchitch New Member

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    Their stock is in the toilet. Banks are being bailed out now. Who is going to have the money to loan them? Nobody has that kind of capital except a government. That is why I said loan not gift. Also, whether anyone thinks about it or not these companies are defence contractors, and they make a lot of earth moving vehicles.
     
  8. SpeedoMike

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    it isn't only US manufacturers who have had sales fall. Toyota, Nissan, and Honda have all dropped 23% to 35% recently. and they supposedly sell cars Americans want to buy.
     
  9. B_JasonDawgxxx

    B_JasonDawgxxx New Member

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    Has anyone seen the shitty cars they are making? No wonder these brain dead tools are going under. They have had their heads in the sand for years. And now they want a bail out? And I guess after the bail outs they will throw a half million dollar party?
     
  10. MASSIVEPKGO_CHUCK

    MASSIVEPKGO_CHUCK Well-Known Member

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    the pain behind your eyes
    I think we've bailed out enough people for quite some time, thank you. In other words,NO FUCKING WAY AT FUCKING ALL, BAIL YOURSELVES OUT!!:rant::mad:
     
  11. midlifebear

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    I'm with the original pm person. My Peugeot 407 dances circles around anything made in the USA. Sadly, one cannot buy a Peugeot in the USA. If France -- and by extension, Argentina -- can figure it out, why can't the geniuses at GM, Ford, and Chrysler? Well, I think that answer to that is rather obvious.

    It's time to let the American car industry die a death it should have suffered in 1978.
     
  12. petergroot

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    I agree with your sentiments re Peugeot 407( I had a 404 for years.... you still see them cruising around in Africa).
    IF the US carmakers can make decent, ecenomical cars, and IF the US public stop buying HUGE yank tanks(SUV's, penis extenders), then maybe give them a loan. But will it work? dunno. difficult choice. A lot of jobs down the line depends on the auto industry
     
  13. B_Nick4444

    B_Nick4444 New Member

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    US Auto Industry asking for $50 Billion bailout...is it finally time to say NO?

    naw -- let 'em have it!

    slap a tariff (a big tariff) on any foreign-made or foreign-owned manufacturers, and prohibit the incorporation of any foreign-made or foreign-owned manufacturer parts

     
  14. D_Marazion Analdouche

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    The cars may not be as shitty if they weren't paying factory workers 60-80% more per hour than your average assembly worker. Executives are also over paid, but paying people 20-30 bucks an hour to put in a rivet is not very cost effective. GM as an example pays somewhere around 76 million a week in salary to factory employees. That's about 40 million more than that national average.

    40 million times 52 weeks is a lot cash to be blowing through, not to mention this is based soley on wages, the rest the company spends per employee for various benefits.
     
  15. B_Nick4444

    B_Nick4444 New Member

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    we should also increase the taxes on non-American cars, including those manufactured here, by foreign owned manufacturers
     
  16. FuzzyKen

    FuzzyKen New Member

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    Sorry Guys,

    This is an industry that in some manner has provided me with a living for many years. Until my very recent retirement I provided vehicles for movie and television production in So. Cal and did so for many years. Shortly after College I also served as a Service Writer for VW and as a Service Manager for a Chrysler-Dodge Dealer.

    The U.S. Auto industry has suffered "engineering by politician" for many decades. When this came into being the United States lost many imports. Alfa-Romeo, Peugeot, Citroen, were but a few of the casualties. These manufacturers left the U.S. because they simply did not sell enough cars to pay for the safety changes that were required for their cars to be sold in the United States.

    Safety changes including huge projecting bumpers, door guard safety beams and all the rest added about 1,000 pounds in weight to the average full sized 1972 Chevrolet Impala over the same car built in 1962. That is a plain simple fact. In addition emissions control became more and more difficult. Foreign manufacturers were decades behind the U.S. in trying to clean up tailpipe emissions. All of this added a huge quantity of weight, reduced engine performance and efficiency AND added a great deal to the price of the vehicles all 3 manufacturers built. Foreign manufacturers did not really fall into this until about 10 years after those in the U.S. did.

    In my business at the peak I bought as many as 200 cars per year. I did not destroy cars I did not own! If I had, I would not have been in business for very long.

    The manufacturer hit the worst by quality control issues was GM. GM has always been the most profit oriented of the "big three" in the U.S.. GM owns Holden in Austrailia, Opel in Germany, Saab in Sweden and a large portion of Isuzu in Japan. GM out and out bought Daewoo in Korea in order to both get rid of them and to get a cheap "off-shore" manufacturer for it's crapy entry line cars.

    GM absolutely forgot how to build quality, in the middle 1970's. To accomplish what legislators wanted the engine temperatures became too high, in order to meet emissions standards (Particularly in California) which shortened engine life. This raised automatic transmission temperatures because of shared cooling and so on and so forth. The technology did not exist at a reasonable price to do otherwise.

    GM has tried valiantly and struggled to remain viable and has sold off the following assets to keep their automobile production afloat: Hughes Aircraft, Detroit Diesel, Allison Transmission, GM Heavy Truck, GM Bus, and they folded Oldsmobile Division again to save money. GM bought Hummer from a military manufacturer nammed AM General which was founded by the late AMC Corporation. They made Hummers for the military. GM is now trying to "dump" Hummer simply because it is no longer viable. The U.S. Military with our tax dollars has now gone to International Harvester to build a replacement for the Hummer H-1. The vehicle is far larger and more cumbersome than the H-1 and will not deliver the performance that an H-1 did.

    Chrysler Corporation has suffered from a hit and miss leadership for many years. With respect to engineering Chrysler built some of the best vehicles the U.S. has ever seen. The problems with Chrysler have always been the inability to get on one course and stay on it. They try to follow trends and fads rather than intelligenet marketing. Lee Iacocca then CEO of Chrysler did secure a loan and bailed out the Corporation. That loan was paid back in total with Interest two years ahead of when it was due. Chrysler good or bad brought us the K-Car, it's 5,000 derivitives and the Mini-Van. In order to save money and cut corners to keep the whole thing alive Chrysler cut off the Plymouth Division. The Merger between Damiler-Benz and Chrysler Created Daimler-Chrysler. That Merger created some of the best automobiles that Chrysler had ever built. The problem was that Daimler-Benz devoted so much of its resources to Chrysler that their own product reliability went down the toilet. Mercedes went from the top of the ratings to the bottom as far as reliability.

    Ford Motor Company has had it's trials and tribulations too. They bought Volvo, Jaguar, Land Rover, and a number of other companies. In more recent years they have began to divest themselves of many of these other car lines. They dumped Jaguar to "Tata" of India.

    All of the big three are not being killed by themselves as manufacturers as much as they are by dealer networks gone totally out of control.

    GM has played fast and loose with the American Consumer for years. The Pontiac GTO was the best example of dealer networks that needed to be removed. GM designed the GTO to sell at competitive prices. The dealers marked those cars up over window sticler as much as $20,000. Of course the cars did not sell. GM discontinues the car based on bad sales. The reason it did not sell was not the car or it's quality it was pure price gouging by it's dealer network. In the late 1970's GM Dealers tacked $3,000-$5,000 mark ups on Oldsmobile diesel automobiles. When the engines which had many design and manufacturing flaws hit the streets, something that could have been outstanding made a mess. GM was in total denial of what the problems really were for years. (It was not a converted gas engine any more than the VW diesel was.)

    GM techs at the dealers (again the dealers) never got the technical training to repair or service the diesels. As a result they did things to these engines that caused catastrophic failures to the customers cars. This was not helped by a batch of metal from Japan that did not meet specification and was forged into 5.7 diesel crakshafts.

    What I fear most is that in the end there will be ONE American automobile manufacturer with zero competition that controls everything. That will result in the purchase of most of the foreign manufacturers by this GIANT and we will be guaranteed absolute garbage with positively zero as far as a recourse against it.

    Think of a merger between GM and Chrysler.............

    In my nearly 40 years of driving, I have been an avid car collector. I still have a collection to this day of some 15 cars. These include classic Chrysler 300's and a few other more esoteric things that have just been fun or kept for sentimental reasons.

    Our home has currently a 1985 Mercedes 300SD Turbodiesel. It has about 350,000 miles on the original engine and still runs great. We have as another driver a 2002 Ford F-550 4x4 Powerstroke diesel pickup. We have a 1977 Ford F-150 with a 300 cid in line 6 cylinder and we also have a 1978 Ford LTD land-yacht. I am in the "biz", can still turn a wrench with the best of them. The Benz gets about 30mpg on the highway, the huge Ford Powerstroke on flat ground at 60mph gets about 18miles per gallon (pretty good for something that weighs 8,700 pounds empty) and the 1977 F-150 gets about 22 on the open road. The old LTD was hand picked out of a used car pile becuase it was the ONLY year that the last huge land-yacht was available with a 302 V8. With a 2.75 rear end gear that old land yacht with a rebuilt engine (by me) gets as high as 24 on the highway at 65-70miles per hour.

    The U.S. has built some of the finest cars in the world. I can attest to many that I have owned and a couple of collectables I still own with over 300,000 miles on the original engines and transmissions which are still running well. If it ain't broke don't fix it.

    Bail out..........We're damned if we do, but we are going to be far worse off if we don't..............




     
  17. lucky8

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    LET THEM FAIL. Make room for new auto companies that are willing and able to adapt to the changing market and can do a better job than the current companies. That's how a free market works. The weak companies fail, the strong companies survive. But if we do this, we'd need a form of protectionism for the auto industry in order to fight off market pressure from foreign companies capable of stealing our domestic market.

    Letting them fail will not be THAT disastrous. Bailing them out will lead to nothing good because they lack the skills to compete in today's environment. Let them fail so new, more innovative companies can take over the market and start moving the country in the direction consumers want it to go. Enough of bailing out bad businesses, it is stifling competetion and innovation. If they want to stay in business, they can move their shitty, noninnovative operations to China for all I care.
     
    #17 lucky8, Nov 7, 2008
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2008
  18. Dellde

    Dellde New Member

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    Give em the money and force them to up the ante quality wise.
     
  19. surferboy

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    hellz yah it's time to say no. i mean, don't get me wrong, i love my monte carlo. but there's theoretically no reason why they need a bailout. they weren't giving loans to peoples. i'm not an economic expert, nor do i pretend to be, but sometimes you need to let a company tank. especially when the peoples that run it make billions a year.
     
  20. B_Nick4444

    B_Nick4444 New Member

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    the President-elect disagrees with you, and has gone on record to state he will be coming up with some sort of federal intervention

     
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