US Foreign policy - international views

Discussion in 'Et Cetera, Et Cetera' started by Imported, Sep 9, 2003.

  1. Imported

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2000
    Messages:
    56,713
    Likes Received:
    55
    longtimelurker: Hi there - didn't want to have my first post as a 'Hi, I'm xyz with xyz size...', so I thought I'd post something a bit more controversial instead.

    With all the US political scene getting into gear, the Democrat candidates have critiscised old Dubya about alienating half the world's population with his foreign policy (cowboy diplomacy is a popular term here). What I'm interested to know is:

    Non-US members, what do you feel your country's opinion of Bush is? Positive? Negative?

    Of course, US members feel free to comment as well.

    Here in the UK I think the view is mostly negative (which may come as a suprise to some people) - the handling of Kyoto was a disaster, but I think the handling of Iraq and WMD was enough to finish him off here. Anyway, it will be interesting to see the views expressed...
     
  2. jonb

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2002
    Messages:
    8,308
    Likes Received:
    2
    While I'm from the US, I should point out, I saw a poll: 51% of Americans now disapprove of Bush, compared to 43% approval. It's Gulf War I all over again.
     
  3. Imported

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2000
    Messages:
    56,713
    Likes Received:
    55
    Javierdude22: Hey Longtimelurker,

    Well, The Netherlands have a tendency to just nod and agree with anything the US says or does in general. I would like to think of us as a satellite state, which is not a good thing in my view. Our cabinet should try to grow some balls (and brains for that matter but that's a different topic).

    I might jump to conclusions here (correct me if I'm wrong) but I think it is safe to say that hardly anyone of the civilians here in the EU think highly of Bush. And with 'think highly' I am using the mother of all understatements. Every inferior adjective known to the English dictionary comes to mind when we talk about Bush, and I'm not being sarcastic, it just really happens.

    Javier, reporting from The Netherlands
     
  4. Imported

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2000
    Messages:
    56,713
    Likes Received:
    55
    longtimelurker:
    Well, you're not alone in the 'nod and agree' camp - the way Blair has been following around Bush like a puppy dog has been noted over here quite a few times, but then that has been the way with 90% of US-UK relationships.
     
  5. Ralexx

    Ralexx Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2002
    Messages:
    647
    Likes Received:
    0
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Central Europe

    Hmm... first time when I saw this thread I said Vade retro ! , but... ???... shall I reply... or shall I not...
     
  6. Ralexx

    Ralexx Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2002
    Messages:
    647
    Likes Received:
    0
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Central Europe
    Zut alors ! I end up touching such a fragile topic in such a fragile day ; like last year.
    US foreign policy ? At least chaotic, confused, disordered....
    Picking up the thread of Javier and LTL, Europe is divided in its vision not because 15 nations would feel here pro-American and there anti-American, but because of their governments. If Spain and Italy - usually close allies of France and Germany - embraced the American point of view, it was because they felt the need to express their personality, to redefine themselves against power-poles like Paris and Berlin. I presume Rome and Madrid had enough with saying "yes". Austria is more preoccupied in becoming a regional Central-European leader ; Greece usually goes with the major Franco-German lines of foreign affairs. The Netherlands, United Kingdom and Denmark are the staunchest pro-Atlantic states : for them, collaborating with the US is almost a-priori. I was reading Margaret Thatcher's book « Statecraft ». Needless to say that all I found there were endless eulogies of US and NATO ; she made me question her capacity of discernment, her sense and finally her intellect. Don't take is as a "usual Frenchy anti-Americanism of Raal's" : I would have felt the same if instead of "US" she was senselessly praising "France", "China", "Russia" or "Nauru" (if ever). It's the discernment I'm interested in. Pretending a state is faultless it's absurd. (I do have my very consistent indignation and umbrage with France, too. I find pathetic the fact that France, instead of using its precious brains, resumes herself in a idiotic contestation of every American political action. This is pure sterility ; France's barking is worse than her biting. In the beginning, I found it ridiculously funny to forbid US in 2003 to do what France did after 1793 for some 20 years : aggression. Call it Bush jr., call it Napoléon, aggression is the same. [Rings a bell why I don't like Napoléon and his microscopic cock ?] But I realised later we're talking about another dimensions : if France used war, she did in a time when this low barbarity was considered natural. "Les gloires de l'armée française" under Napoléon's rule are not exactly my most cherished souvenirs, even though the Arc de Triomphe looks superb. Still, it doesn't mean I'm anti-French.)

    Getting back to America... what US are doing in world affairs is extremely confusing. Therefore, it looks hypocritical and immature. The inconsistencies come from the incompatibility between the principles claimed and the practice. To claim you're the ultimate expression of democracy, peace and prosperity IMPLIES you're mature enough to realise that brutal actions should be outside your acts : or, what, democracy means . To claim a New World Order several times under 3 presidents and to be the first who breaks it's also a flagrant inconsistency. To claim "Europe is an ally", "Japan is an ally" and to try to impose there decisions, disregarding the interests and the opinions of the so-called allied is another mess. No alliance can be built on "shut up and listen, otherwise I'll kick your economical ass". No alliance can be built on lack of liberty : everyone knows, in Europe, that America is immediately ready to "chastise". It's not America's fault it expresses its force. It's perfectly natural ! (What bodybuilder wouldn't show off his muscles ?) It's (I'm talking about Europe) Europe's fault that is not willing to abandon national prerogatives. Nations are rather expired as a concept - their usefulness was limited ; but as I said before, you cannot build Europe - a mega-state fitting a culture, a geography and a civilisation - in one night. (Confining within national borders is not me : my country is Europe. Its spiritual capital is the French capital Paris, for me. Very simple. That my heart beats also for London, Rome, Vienna, Athens, Prague, etc, etc., that's another story. That I'm married to History and also to Europa, it's another story, too, and it would take me some other 800 years to explain it.)
     
  7. Ralexx

    Ralexx Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2002
    Messages:
    647
    Likes Received:
    0
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Central Europe
    part II

    I think the real America remained somewhere in the past... The (geographically) isolationist, (historically) exceptionalist, moralist America (moralist as opposed to the "wicked" European diplomacy) - such as I see it in Grant's painting "American Gothic", 1922 - was forced to participate in a world Europe created for 500 years, after Europe collapsed under the weigh of her own inconsistencies (themselves caused by the same double discourse). The "American hypocrisy" is only half-guilty ; I'd call it schizophrenia, which is just the result of the compromise between the need for a political ethic and the need to cope with a world US didn't (doesn't) understand. It's natural ; the involvement of the US in big world affairs has only some 90 years. WW2 and the Cold War turned US into the centre of the international system, forcing it to assume world-wide responsibilities against the Soviet aggression. However, its economic power was able to sustain the Soviet rivalry. Its was only Vietnam that shattered the US credo : for the first time, it was confronted not only with a failure, but with a tragedy. Wanting (or pretending) to save a state from the communist aggression, it just widened the conflict and ruined the neighbour countries. The guilt has heavy, the retreat had no glory ; US discovered long time after Europe that there are indeed problems without any solution... that US cannot answer every challenge. Years of moral depression came, 1972-1981. Of course this gave birth to the strong Republican reaction of 1981-1991, Reagan and Bush. Reagan was a bit more impressive than Bush sr. ; but both made the mistake of ignoring international law : Reagan in Granada 1983, Bush sr. in Panama. Ignoring international law doesn't mean just breaking a moral code, but ignoring what the international community has to say. In other words : "I couldn't care less about what you think. I'm the boss." Well... that didn't bring any sympathy to US... and still doesn't.
    What you give is what you get. Give aggression and you'll receive aggression. Betray and you shall be betrayed. Human laws.
    After the fall of the Reds' Regime, in 1989, US were confronted with a multipolar world that was completely unknown. It was better known to Europe, whose history in the last 1000 years was a graceful (and bloody) rigadoon (or gigue) between different centres of power. Tact, skill, diplomacy, wars, promises, betrayal, mutual acquaintance, partitions, marriages, dynasties, voilà...During Clinton, US spoke a lot about partnership with "traditional allies". But, cuckoo, US behaved unilaterally. (I don't know about Japan, but Europe's tolerance reached level 0 when a Richard Holbroke started to advocate in 1995 the "need" for an American presence in Europe, "Europe - space where US should display its wisdom and dexterity." Sorry, no. I understand we are chums and you can come over my place, have a nice chat in the living room, but if you're entering my bedroom and start to tell me what to do, I'll kick you out. It's commonsensical.)

    Getting closer to an end, I might add that the very fact that US regard with complete hostility the European unification is another unsurpassable gap. Lord Acton was right : too much power corrupts, and I'd add : if not moralities, then ideas. It's naïve to presume that Europe will ever accept US tutelage (I should remember that Europe ignored the anti-Cuban and anti-Iran Helms-Burton and D'Amatto-Kennedy laws of 1996). More US are willing to believe its power in Europe should be accepted, more hostility will emerge. Europe's guilt. Nature dislikes void, and, without a European foreign affairs identity, collectively forged, Europe indirectly encourages the chaotic behaviour of the US. When Europe wants (see WTO), she can be a hell of a lady, knowing to oppose and rule (see mobile phone system, GSM).
    The pity is that the American people is seen outside through the actions of its government. Bush is not America, Wall Street, the Pentagon is not America. The Americans I met in Paris, be in on the streets, be in the Louvre, were amongst the nicest people I ever met. But if this confusion is made, it means that the political institutions are far away from the citizens. Thus, it will take the American citizens to solve this problem of their democracy. Define new political parties, put a bit of ideological social credo in the R and the D parties, find a vision of the world that means other thing than "I'm the best, you're not like me, I'm OK, you're not, so do as I say" and it will be better. Cope with your European heritage, trust intellectuals, go back to the principles of your roots. Think America. That's your soul.
     
  8. Imported

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2000
    Messages:
    56,713
    Likes Received:
    55
    Javierdude22: [quote author=Raal Lexx link=board=99;num=1063130392;start=0#6 date=09/11/03 at 04:20:19]part II
    The pity is that the American people is seen outside through the actions of its government. Bush is not America, Wall Street, the Pentagon is not America. The Americans I met in Paris, be in on the streets, be in the Louvre, were amongst the nicest people I ever met. But if this confusion is made, it means that the political institutions are far away from the citizens. Thus, it will take the American citizens to solve this problem of their democracy[/quote]

    Well put Raal, quite a recap!! :). But, like the polls showed recently, although close to half of the Us citizens are discontent about Bush's foreign policy, that also implies that half either agree on it, or don't know yet. I also found only liberal American tourists in Europe, who feel discontent about Bush's policy. But i do believe that in general there is a bias in that it is mostly the liberal Americans that are interested in Europe.

    I may goin' out on a limb here, but if i may make this generalization (with obvious exceptions of course) it is exactly the Bible Belt or conservative citizens that show little interest in Europe, and it's culture. I have heard an opposite generalization from them, that we are sissy's, and a buncha bla-bla decandent snobs who would be speaking German if it weren't for the US soldiers. And dammit...they don't accept dollars at the McDonalds on the Champs Elysées!!

    The Democrats are just too divided to push forward a strong candidate to oppose Bush.
     
  9. Imported

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2000
    Messages:
    56,713
    Likes Received:
    55
    SweetDiane: ~ takes the laurels and puts them on Raal's head ~ :-*
     
  10. Imported

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2000
    Messages:
    56,713
    Likes Received:
    55
    longtimelurker: Yes, a lot of the problems, I feel, come from the very insular citizens that never have, and probably never will set foot outside their state, let alone their country. Personally, I find it terrible that people are contemplating complete withdrawal from their own fuck-ups in Iraq and Afganistan just because they didn't realise that completely re-building a destroyed country might be expensive!

    And kudos, Raal - a short history of Europe (abridged) if ever there was one!

    As for the French viewpoint, as seen by me, I always feel that the French still want to be known as an imperial power, even though, like ourselves and all the other empire-holding countries, they lost that power long ago. Because of this I see most of the French policy as trying to make themselves noticed as much as possible no matter what the consequences. I think this is more of a thing with the older generations, though - as all the young French that I have met have been a lot more liberally minded than their government would suggest.

    As for a unified Europe, I'm a great believer that the world needs at least two 'superpowers', if only to prevent complete takeover of world affairs by one country, which is never a good thing. Now if only we can get the individual leaders to realise that they have to compromise to get anywhere and it's not just grab-grab-grab. Unfortunately the current spat between France/Germany and practically the rest of Europe just shows what a problem presenting a unified European foreign policy is going to be.

    Hmm, doesn't flow quite as well as I'd ideally like, but I suppose the points are there. :-/
     
  11. B_JohnTheHorse

    B_JohnTheHorse New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2002
    Messages:
    510
    Likes Received:
    2
    Gender:
    Male
    Here's an interesting article from today's NY Times:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/11/international/11OPIN.html

    And here is my two cents:

    I think the main problem here is not just the USA and it's role in the world, but unfortunately President Bush himself and many of his associates by extention. People don't just dislike our policies and actions in Iraq, Kyoto, The International Criminal Court etc. It's that Bush is really saying in the most crude tones FUCK YOU. That attitude is unprescented in the world of diplomacy really. It's unprecedented because in the past no one could get away from such bionic toxic arrogance without upsetting the geo political balance in a mulit polar world. Now that there is really only one power that counts, they feel they can say or do anything without consequence. Actually I think it's the opposite: the moment the USA become the world superpower we americans entered a phase of extreme delicacy and consequence for our dipolmacy. You could almost say that you have even less freedom to do what you want if you're a lone world power with few or no rivals. Surrounding yourself with aging imperialists, rabid unilateralists, incompetents (like that guy who called N. Korea all those dumb names last week) and the like is NOT how you lead the world as the #1 power. Insulting nations who stood by us during 2 world wars and 1 cold war is not how you lead the world. Flaking out on finding the real terrorists and going after Iraqi oil is not how you fight the war on terror.

    Last, I would like to thank all of those especially in Europe who are disgusted at our recent actions but still hold the faith in the USA. The real people of America are still here, so thanks for standing by us even though our government treats you more or less like dirt.

    Everyone hang on! Howard Dean is the one to watch. Come january 2005 all of Bush shit will seem like a bad dream.
     
  12. Ralexx

    Ralexx Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2002
    Messages:
    647
    Likes Received:
    0
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Central Europe

    @ SweetDiane - Thank you for the laurels, :D, but thrust me, there's no need. Such topics shouldn't be exceptional. More one discusses such affairs, more one will be able to understand why "9-11"-s happen and where the causes can be...

    @ LTL, JohnTheHorse - some excellent points there !... here I go again making a new confession... in March, I met both Dominique de Villepin (the French foreign affairs minister) and his father, Xavier de Villepin. Splendid persons. (Villepin-father... well, I met him during a conference on anti-Americanism, and he was very moderate.) France feels half-imperial, you know... 55% of the French feel they are a great power. Only 31% of the Germans and 23% of the British see France as a world power. France has some great assets, but she'd better use them within Europe, not for herself... She feels protected by her own nuclear missiles, she has a fairly nice influence in Africa, a Francophone space whose economic stakes are not to be neglected, she's the 4th economic power of the Globe... Pas mal, pas mal de tout ! That creates a very comfortable feeling. But France's present reactions are, I'd say, the normal syndrom of post-imperial power... China feels the same (ah, China, a political UFO !) and UK feels the same, albeit in other ways ; US would feel the same if losing power tomorrow morning.

    @ Javier - indeed, :D but we have our stereotypes as well.
     
  13. Imported

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2000
    Messages:
    56,713
    Likes Received:
    55
    longtimelurker: That was a really interesting article, John. It sums up quite well a lot of what I think is going on.

    The American media tends to get a bad press when it comes to world news, so its good to see such a well-balanced piece.

    And I honestly think that it is only the most naive that believe that the current mess is anyone but Bush&Co's doing. Still - must work on impoving that 43% approval rate - 8% is not a good margin for error!
     
  14. Imported

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2000
    Messages:
    56,713
    Likes Received:
    55
    throb919: [quote author=Javierdude23 link=board=99;num=1063130392;start=0#7 date=09/11/03 at 05:29:29]
    ...I also found only liberal American tourists in Europe, who feel discontent about Bush's policy. But I do believe that in general there is a bias in that it is mostly the liberal Americans that are interested in Europe.

    I may goin' out on a limb here, but if I may make this generalization (with obvious exceptions of course) it is exactly the Bible Belt or conservative citizens that show little interest in Europe, and its culture. And dammit...they don't accept dollars at the McDonalds on the Champs Elysées!![/quote]

    You're right of course, Javier. But it's the more liberal Americans who question Bush at home, too. And there's still the bias in the US that anyone who opposes the President (post-9/11 and the Iraq war) is unpatriotic. I don't think it's necessarily geographic, though (says the liberal in the heart of the Bible Belt): you can find rabid xenophobes and isolationists throughout the US. You don't have to worry about 'em waving their dollars on the Champs-Élysées right now, though: those "good" Americans wouldn't be caught mort in France right now--they won't even order "French fries" anymore ("freedom fries," remember?)

    (Ce n'est pas moi, Radu, bien sûr!)

    I've encountered the most infuriating and clueless Americans abroad--and sometimes (unfortunately) end up in arguments with them that leave me branded un-American (or maybe "pinko commie fag" or something). An older woman plopped down at my table at a sidewalk café in Montmartre one night exclaiming "Thank God! Americans!" because she overheard our conversation. She couldn't wait to get home from one of those 7-countries-in-14-days tours because "Nothing here is like it is at home!" (And she was probably staying in Hiltons and eating at that very McDonald's.) I asked where she had been and she listed a few Grand Tour countries and added "somewhere left of Italy"; no, not politically left--just east. She had hated everything--from the bathrooms to the food (or is it the other way 'round?) and complained that (I swear!) "Everyone is foreign." I asked (seriously) why she had come to Europe in the first place (sincerely wondering what she was expecting or looking for) and she sighed and responded "I wish I'd never left the US." I sort-of wish she hadn't either...

    It still amazes me that Europeans are as warm and welcoming to Americans as you are. It'd be very easy for you to walk on by feigning that you only spoke Dutch or French or--yeah--German. So to you, Javier: Dank u wel.
     
  15. Imported

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2000
    Messages:
    56,713
    Likes Received:
    55
    longtimelurker:
    Doesn't work quite so well in London, though - alas!

    Anyway, the bad ones are usually easy to spot - just look out for the bad Hawaiin shirts!
     
  16. Imported

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2000
    Messages:
    56,713
    Likes Received:
    55
    longtimelurker: [quote author=Raal Lexx link=board=99;num=1063130392;start=0#11 date=09/11/03 at 11:57:10]
    she's the 4th economic power of the Globe...
    [/quote]

    Hmm, strange - I always thought we were the 4th - probably pretty close. Still - pretty small-fry when compared to the 'big 2' - Japan and the US.
     
  17. Ralexx

    Ralexx Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2002
    Messages:
    647
    Likes Received:
    0
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Central Europe
    Yes, France is the 4th, UK is the 5th (was the 6th in the late 1980s), Italy is the 6th... but if you take the European Union as a whole... That's my country !
    What is, though, to admire, is the fact that with 1% of the world's population (both France and UK, cca. 60 mil.) held the spectacular positions of being the 4th and the 5th... that means that they're damn good !! ;)

    PS - :D Throb, that was funny ! It simply happens, perhaps it's a sort of subconscious fear of being away... I saw Europeans who reacted in the same way and, gosh, I saw even French who have the hardest time seeing and eating what is not French. It's a paradox. Anyway, the Americans I met were prefectly all right, :) (BTW... Hilton, in Paris, next to the Eiffel Tower, sucks :-X (Sorry. Excepting the upper levels of the Tower, you can see nothing, no Seine, no bridges, no nothing.) Allez-y, essayez le Ritz, le Crillon, la Lutéce, l'InterContinental ! Ce sont bien "cool" ! )
     
  18. Ralexx

    Ralexx Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2002
    Messages:
    647
    Likes Received:
    0
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Central Europe
    Three hours later...

    , Throb wrote.

    I cannot understand (and will not understand) why a criticism against one country (even one's own country) is immediately catalogued as "anti-...-ism". Ça alors ! Critique is perfectly normal, it's an intellectual asset, an instrument to improve ; there are always, anywhere, things to improve, to analyse, to re-carve, to reshape. Sarcasm and irony are indeed the least noble, for their aim is just to degrade. That's why one will always say "fine irony", opposed to the usual, unsharpened.
    For you critiqued your own country you're considered anti-American ? Ha ! You should hear me criticising Roumania, if no other state ! It's one of the first proofs that one loves his/her country and wants what's best for it ! (As Dantesco excellently put it once in March - I can only paraphrase - « I love this country so much I hate to see it tarnished by... » this-and-that.) It's like a human relation, where arguments and fights shouldn't break it, but improve it, make it work (if you know how to maturely regard such an occurrence).
    There are so many ways to love a country ! I'll take my case : my passion for a country is certainly not going to impeach the passion for another one. It always begins with my attachment to a culture or a history. There I go ! (Now one can understand why my passion for France, United Kingdom, Germany, Austria, Italy, Ireland, Spain, Greece, Hungary, etc.) More I am acquainted with a country, more intimate I feel with it, more I'll feel responsible. The culture of a country feeds me, I can only reply by appraisal or critical vigilance. (Mais, bien sûr, these are my private/own vistas, and will certainly not say "Do like me." It's all about personal experiences.) Meaning that : in my opinion, critique is a hidden form of love.
    (Of course I received twice in my life remarks like : "who are you to talk about my country ? you're a foreigner." LOL. I replied : « Really ? I might be a foreigner by birth, but not by what I feel about, what I know about and certainly not by the way I appreciate your culture. And, after all, one simply cannot forbid me to feel attached to a foreign country. » We both laughed and the incident was forgotten.)

    LongTimeLurker, a history of Europe ? IMHO, Europe always had a history of its own, which - fortunately ! - is not the sum of the histories of the European states. I'll invite you to read Norman Davies' book, "A History of Europe", 1996. This British wrote the most impressive history of our Continent. (No comments : you're in !) It's impressive not only by volume (1200 pages), but by view, by outlook, by style. I cannot describe his enchanting style, captivating, but I definitely can tell you that the information is admirably accurate and diverse, coming from every field of life. Leaves you breathless. It's a masterpiece of history writing, it's blockbuster history, it's the splendidissima consolatrix for those who seek Europe. (He also wrote a prodigious history of the United Kingdom and Ireland : "The Isles". Of course I read it !)

    PS - I must confess I'm a bit astonished that only 2 American involved in this discussion. We're three Europeans instead.
     
  19. Imported

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2000
    Messages:
    56,713
    Likes Received:
    55
    Javierdude22: [quote author=throb919 link=board=99;num=1063130392;start=0#13 date=09/11/03 at 12:04:15]

    You're right of course, Javier. But it's the more liberal Americans who question Bush at home, too. And there's still the bias in the US that anyone who opposes the President (post-9/11 and the Iraq war) is unpatriotic. I don't think it's necessarily geographic, though (says the liberal in the heart of the Bible Belt): you can find rabid xenophobes and isolationists throughout the US. [/quote]

    Your quite right Tony. It is of course a gross generalization I made, but, It's a stereotype that kinda goes here. Probably induced by the film industry who always portray anything Midwest or Southern as ignorant.

    :D :D :D...well, and that is basically thé stereotype image that goes here. But of course everybody knows it is only a few exceptions, thank goodness. And the US is still the US, something to look upto. Everybody can wine, groan, sigh, and debate and what the US does/did/will do, but in the end, most young people want to visit it, live in it, or at least think it's the bomb. As long...as we don't get into politics.
     
  20. Imported

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2000
    Messages:
    56,713
    Likes Received:
    55
    throb919: [quote author=Javierdude23 link=board=99;num=1063130392;start=0#18 date=09/12/03 at 03:20:29]...but in the end, most young people want to visit it, live in it, or at least think it's the bomb. As long...as we don't get into politics.[/quote]

    ...would that be the atomic bomb, the hydrogen bomb, or a cluster bomb...?

    Oops--that was political, huh?
     
Draft saved Draft deleted