US Foreign policy - international views

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7x6andchg: This thread, and particularly Tony's posts about being in Europe and having an American plop down at his table, reminds me of the last time I was in France (sadly, so long ago)....

When I came back, people asked if the French were as rude as their reputation here in the States. I said, "No, actually, I found them to be quite nice and accomodating."

"Really? Well, when we went over there back in 19whatever, they were just rude."

"Did you even TRY to speak French?"

"No."

"Did it occur to you that it would tick you off and you might come off as rude if someone came here and didn't even TRY to speak English"

"No"

Case closed.

That said, I am glad that people do still realize, as JohnTheHorse said, that Americans themselves are still generally a very nice, open, friendly lot who just have a few...problems...coming to grips with the fact that although we may be the world's superpower, it doesn't mean we have to act like a bully.

7x6&C
 

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What Tony and 7 have said about the behaviour of American tourists in Paris is of more universal application, I think. It appears to me that it applies to pretty well all tourists en masse --- Brits very much included (see the recent headlines about the way some of my compatriots have behaved on the island of Rhodes).

What about this for Max's first law of international relations? --- "Tourists always give a worse impression of their country than you would get if you saw them at home."
 
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7x6andchg: Very true, Max.

We often forget that in order to have good hosts, we must first be good guests.

The shame of it is this: we don't realize that at the time, and instead complain about the conduct of the other when we/they return home.
 
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awellhungboi: To start off on a side-note, I read Norman Davies' Europe, Raal.  And I agree, it's splendid.  At the time I was working the 'Night Audit' shift at a seedy motel, and had very little to do.  So I spent the hours from 12-7 reading.  I also had plans to use it as a weapon, if the need arose.  (It's a substantial book in more ways than one!)

To address the topic, one of the many mistakes of the Bush administration, and probably the one that will have the longest and most negative impact, is his squandering of the International goodwill directed at the U.S. after the Sept. 11th attacks.  I remember how touched I was at the outpouring of sentiment from the nations of the world.  "We are all Americans!"  they cheered.  Bush, as several of you have noted, responded with, "Okay, well if you're all Americans, then I'm your boss."  Sadly, though, Mr. Bush can't even boss his dog around without dropping him on his head.

With that ill-natured gibe on my part, let me say that I think people make a miscalculation when they characterize Bush as stupid.  No, don't get me wrong, I'm sure in one-on-one conversation he's probably a singularly unimpressive intellect, but he and his advisors do have an International plan, and a worldview based on the shoddiest, most cynical realpolitik.  I think that Europeans and other world nations perceive this rather clearly.  Halliburton, the Carlyle Group, etc. and the other tentacles that make up the body of the Bush octopus are going for, I feel, the 'Alexander the Great' grab.  They don't care if people think they're bullies or hypocrites, they'll cry all the way to the Swiss bank, they'll comfort themselves with their buillion.  They're trying to get as much as they can, and don't care how they get it.

Still, I can't help but feel that Cheney, Rumsfeld, et al, would be well-served by pulling their copies of Herodotus, Gibbon, Carlyle and Mark Twain off the shelf, and putting the Toynbee back.  
 
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longtimelurker: [quote author=Max link=board=99;num=1063130392;start=20#21 date=09/13/03 at 06:14:31] It appears to me that it applies to pretty well all tourists en masse ---  Brits very much included (see the recent headlines about the way some of my compatriots have behaved on the island of Rhodes).[/quote]

God, yes. I would HATE to be a resident of Ibiza (or anywhere similar) - esp. if I lived there BEFORE it became a party hotspot. Hopefully that wasn't what Javier was referring to in another thread about us have a reputation as a nation of party-freaks!

As for 'A history of Europe' - I must confess that I have not heard of it before, although the authors name does ring a bell. I'll look out for it next time I'm in the library, as it's been a while since I read any good non-fiction.
 

Ralexx

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Monstro, « :-* » and kudos !!! What a good feeling to hear someone reads the same books as you ! (I add this to Proust and, he-he, next time we'll "coincide" I'll pay you a Concorde ticket to come and see me in Europe. We'll have lunch together and we'll endlessly talk about books ! :D)

This being said, LTL, go for it ;) !
 
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awellhungboi: Sounds like a plan, Raal! I'd like a window seat, please.

Seriously, though, I'd love to discuss Davies, Proust, or any other author with you as we as we enjoy a delightful meal. Moreso I'd enjoy simply listening to you talk about your own life, and your own fascinating experiences.

[/offtopic]
 
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Longhornjok: [quote author=Raal Lexx link=board=99;num=1063130392;start=20#25 date=09/13/03 at 10:29:06]I'll pay you a Concorde ticket to come and see me in Europe.[/quote]
I thought Concorde flights went the way of the dodo and liberal Republicans? :)
 
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longtimelurker: [quote author=Longhornjok link=board=99;num=1063130392;start=20#27 date=09/13/03 at 15:23:17]
I thought Concorde flights went the way of the dodo and liberal Republicans? :)[/quote]

:)

Will do, but not for a little longer - BA stop flying theirs in 41 days (as of 13th Sep - can't be bothered to do the maths, sorry!)
 
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awellhungboi: [quote author=Longhornjok link=board=99;num=1063130392;start=20#27 date=09/13/03 at 15:23:17]
I thought Concorde flights went the way of the dodo and liberal Republicans? :)[/quote]

Ah, but you should know as well as anyone, LHJ, that here in Monstro's Happy Land of Make-Believe the Concorde always flies, magic ducks sing beautiful songs that grant everyone's wishes, laughing unicorns dance around the lollipop trees, and Nelson Rockefeller never died.
 
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SpeedoGuy: I think public opinion about Bush here in the US is pretty evenly divided right now. However, if the occupation of Iraq goes on costing billions and producing more casualties without turning up any WMDs then I suspect his popularity is going to slip. Since 2004 is an election year, the Republicans will have to enact some kind of powerful media blitz to cast a positive spin on the occupation of Iraq. Or maybe there will be a major distraction to divert the electorate's attention elsewhere. In any case, there doesn't seem to be much middle ground about Bush, people either love him or hate him and I don't think that will change.

As to characterizing the reaction to Bush from overseas, I really don't know what foreigners, particularly Europeans, think about Americans in general and Bush in particular. I don't trust the mainstream US media to report the truth about reactions to us from abroad so I'm left trying to gather information any other way I can. Forums like this fill that need.

I've visited Europe twice and was treated well both times. However, by listening to conversations I was still puzzled.  I occasionally got the feeling Europeans think of Americans as a bunch of ignorant hotheads who are respected only for their economic and military power. At other times I got the feeling that other nations look to our lead while tolerantly overlooking our mistakes and faults. I guess both could be true at different times and places.

In any case, when abroad I try to act as a quiet ambassador of goodwill, patience and respect in order to counteract the "ugly American" stereotype.

SG
 

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Messieurs,
The last 7 Concordes of the Air France are still in use. Till November... Monstro, don't worry, your ticket is right in my hands, already !(...more about the Concorde, later ;))
 
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aj2181: [quote author=SpeedoGuy link=board=99;num=1063130392;start=20#30 date=09/13/03 at 23:50:56]I think public opinion about Bush here in the US is pretty evenly divided right now.

Since 2004 is an election year, the Republicans will have to enact some kind of powerful media blitz to cast a positive spin on the occupation of Iraq. Or maybe there will be a major distraction to divert the electorate's attention elsewhere.


[/quote]


I was waiting to see how this topic progressed before I dared to enter it.

Speedo, Your right on the mark.

The thing is, the election is still a ways away. The whole earth could turn upside down between now and election day. It's hard to tell what us prickly Americans will do on the big day. It all comes down to turn out. If the fat cat republicans muster enough fat white men to the polls Bush may just win, fair and square this time.

The country is perfectly divided right down the middle. Half Liberal, half Conservitive. That makes for volitile politics.

Ok now to the foreign policy. The Bush White House knows exaclty what its doing. I'm not convinced Dub'ya is a total meat head. I think he does have a brain up there and I think it's playing it's part in spinning it's web. They are definitly the best white house at keeping secrets. That place has less leaks than the Hoover Dam. They are playing their game, and they have been winning. They have out manuvered the Democrats. It's sad to say that the Dem. party doesn't have a strong enough candidate. I think it's time for many of them to step away from the plate and let the top tree go for it.

If the E-U keeps growing and coming closer together the U.S. will find it'self the second place winner in the worlds economic race. The E-U nations when runnin on all four cylinders will be the worlds largest economy. Interdependency will keep the U.S. from going by the way side. I my opinion the U.S. should start treating Europe as an equal because not to long from now they will be our superior.

I find the Bush policies detestable. Need I say more? :mad:
 
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longtimelurker: [quote author=aj2181 link=board=99;num=1063130392;start=20#32 date=09/14/03 at 02:48:38]
The country is perfectly divided right down the middle. Half Liberal, half Conservitive. That makes for volitile politics.
([/quote]

I think having a split halfway is far better than the situation we have here - our opposition is so hopelessly lost right now that Blair can get away with anything he wants to right now with no repurcussions (I personally wonder whether he would be so blazé about Iraq if he didn't have about 100 majority in parliament). In the headlines here at the moment the government are being investigated by independant enquiries regarding the case for war and their role in the recent suicide of a leading weapons inspector. Neither have come back with very positive results, but Blair is now getting poll results higher than before the war! It's a similar problem to what you're stating with the Democrats - after John Major resigned the main opposition here (Tories) have just been too split to put together a decent attack, giving Blair free leave to do whatever he wants.

[quote author=aj2181 link=board=99;num=1063130392;start=20#32 date=09/14/03 at 02:48:38]
Ok now to the foreign policy. The Bush White House knows exaclty what its doing. I'm not convinced Dub'ya is a total meat head. I think he does have a brain up there and I think it's playing it's part in spinning it's web. They are definitly the best white house at keeping secrets. That place has less leaks than the Hoover Dam. They are playing their game, and they have been winning. They have out manuvered the Democrats. It's sad to say that the Dem. party doesn't have a strong enough candidate. I think it's time for many of them to step away from the plate and let the top tree go for it.

If the E-U keeps growing and coming closer together the U.S. will find it'self the second place winner in the worlds economic race. The E-U nations when runnin on all four cylinders will be the worlds largest economy. Interdependency will keep the U.S. from going by the way side. I my opinion the U.S. should start treating Europe as an equal because not to long from now they will be our superior.

I find the Bush policies detestable. Need I say more? :mad:[/quote]

I don't think you have to worry too much about a completely united EU at the moment - there are far too many disagreements and countries acting the prima donna for much progress to be made at the present time. And perhaps it's a bit of a relief at the moment - the current EU president (the Italian PM - Berlesconi) is even worse than Bush when it comes to putting his foot in it - I mean in the few months he's been president he has already accused a German EU representative of being like a worker in a Nazi concentration camp and more recently defended Mussolini, saying that he was just a 'passive' dictator!

Personally, I'd have thought in economics terms China is a lot more likely to take the economic throne in the near future - esp. with 7% growth PA compared to 0-2% everywhere else.
 

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Berlusconi is an idiot, literally. It is the first time I say such a blunt and respect-lacking thing about a politician. He has no nuances, he's corrupt like hell. As much as I am concerned, he has NO legitimacy to represent Europe: in fact, nobody elected him. Berlusconi is one of the worst products Italy exported, next to Mussollini. I hope his mass-media empire will be sold ($7 bn.), leaving him with less power upon the Italian affairs. (Ugh, Mitterrand used to admire this guy in the 1980s... up to a point, though.)

Speaking about elections : do you know that the French, asked in 1999, "who would they vote for a possible European president", pointed Helmut Kohl by 57% votes ? Amazing. This is indeed a "European" sentiment.

I am one of those who doubt China's capacity of being a superpower... but on that, a bit later !...
 
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longtimelurker: But one of the most interesting things I've seen on Berlusconi is that he is presiding over the longest running parliament in Italy since WW2! (Granted, it's only 2 years, but then that's the Italians for you  ;)).

But I'd imagine that even if he sold his empire, $7bn can still buy you a hell of a lot of power!

As for China, I'll see what you have to say, as I'll have to admit that you tend to be far more politically informed than myself. Even if they lack political power, however, surely their sheer economic bulk and huge population will make them an extremely difficult country to ignore?
 
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aj2181: Well I wish all you Europeans would get your acts together and oppose us more! when yall go your own way with some being stubborn and others being pushovers it's not a wonder Dubya can do what he wants.
 

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Well, China...
Next to Japan and US, was a subject of my last year graduation paper. Its history, its psychology, its predictable future, its relation with Europe. I will not detail the fascinating mental complex of the present-day (aware) Chinese - mixture of superiority, vulnerability and humiliation that craves revenge - ; I will say it does explain the motivations of the Chinese government, it does define its relation to the West (China makes enough distinction between Europe and US, so that it behaves in one way with the EU15 and in another with Washington DC). Seeking to use Western technology, expertise, investment and market access, China tries to mobilise its own vast resources so as to make itself either an Equal of the West, or the Superior, if possible.
(The paradox of such a belief : China would be nothing but a half-Occidental power ; it's naïve to imagine it will preserve its specificity, when an occidental-type economy is definitely going to change its society, its customs, etc. If China wants to claim the Chinese superiority over the West, she should abandon everything Occidental - thus, everything that's foreign - and prove the world this superiority by its own Chinese means. Of course, this will never happen.)

Getting to the Chinese economy. I'm afraid I am one of those who contest the general trend of imagining China a future superpower. :) Its main deficit is the lack of the middle class (whose beginnings were crushed by Mao). Second : a great part of China's economics are based on piracy of Western-products and the lack of copyright laws. Indeed, OMG, China's annual growth was 8% since 1979 ! A shocking growth in 24 years ! BUT !
Let us not be tricked by numbers. And, to clear the picture, let me also say that Bosnia's annual growth was 17%. But it's the departure level that matters, not the number in itself. If one begins at -55... We're talking in the same way about the "4 ASEAN Dragons" and their amazing economic results : but not to many noticed that the GDP of the 4 states put together barely reached the level of the Netherlands (at least in 1995 ; in 1997, the crisis followed...) The same numbers will display another amazing reality : China is the second economy in the world, measured by purchasing power parity (waaaay before Japan, and this in 2001) ; it's the 7th in terms of current exchange rates. But, when one looks at the GDP/capita... the 150th place in the global ranking. That means a very low level of consumption, and this - we all know - is certainly not stimulating the economy.

Only 1% of United Kingdom's exports are directed to China. 2% for the US. China's share of world trade is less than that of the Netherlands (or of the Belgium and Luxembourg put together). There is no hint of economic superpower as imagined by a lot of post-Spenglerian westerners. China is economically weak. The skyscrapers in Peking, Shanghai, Canton and Hong Kong are Potemkin-villages, façades. The interior of the country is suffocated by poor communications, poverty in rural areas, underdevelopment. A further liberalisation of the economical regime makes Beijing wonder if the state will not collapse or break in 3 : a developed eastern, maritime, China ; a rural mid-China and a Muslim-western China (centred on Ürmüqi). God knows which are the virtues found by China in such an impossible-to-handle system (communist debilitating rule and economical liberalisation :eek:), for there aren't any !

We forget the Chinese inflation. We forget this country has little framework to sustain the economical expansion, we forget the state-owned properties that are grossly inefficient and suck budget funds ; 50% of these enterprises are loss-making, absorb 75% of the domestic credit, while 20% of these loans are non-performant. These are Chinese figures ; Westerns estimate higher. If China survived the turmoil of the 1997 crisis it was exactly because it's a closed economy, for all changes in the last 24 years. And so, the greatest result of the last 5 years was the agricultural reform : China is now able to feed its people. (Exports ? Not in this century ; excepting rice and bamboo.) I would add the 100 million floating population from the rural areas to the urban - it needs (new) roots.

As about a "Chinese century"... I personally don't see it possible due to some of the aforementioned statements. China is not a military superpower and will never be ; so rapid are the current advances in US military technology that - honestly ! - China has to run in order to stand still. All China did was reinforce traditional military means - which are both old and obsolete.

Superpower on equal status with the US : a Beijing delicious fantasy perfumed with Ming reveries.
 

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Ah, a short comment on Europe

It does have the assets and the capacity to become a superpower. Its economic space is larger than US's. (Slower because of the welfare-state, but I spoke about the welfare state here in another thread). The rest (foreign affairs and military capacity) is a matter of will.
In fact, Europe has no idea what type of relation she wants with the US. We want US in ? Out ? Next ? Away ? Imagine that EU Mediterranean states would demand the evacuation of the US military bases. The entire edifice of US domination in the Mediterranean would collapse. Imagine that UK would not lease anymore to the US the Diego Garcia islands in the Indian Ocean. Much of the military hegemony of the US is sustained by exterior factors. (Okinawa for Asia via Japan, etc.) Therefore, it is, in fact, fragile.

US are maybe not aware about Europe's indirect, soft or out-of-sight power. Partly because Europe doesn't express it. Partly because Europe has no idea she's so powerful. But Europe does not want to be a sort of America and I said it out loud in an article I wrote for the « Financial Times » in January 2000 (web-published on February 3rd) during the 2000 Davos World Economic Forum (« Does Europe need an American-style Constitution ? »)*.


* - I have no clue if it still can be found in FT's archives after 3 years and a half, because I was notified through email it was moved to a new location ; I don't use the same email address now, the former was deleted, etc. The article it's not lost, I have a printed copy. ;D
 
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Javierdude22: [quote author=Raal Lexx link=board=99;num=1063130392;start=20#38 date=09/15/03 at 01:14:49]Ah, a short comment on Europe

It does have the assets and the capacity to become a superpower. Its economic space is larger than US's. (Slower because of the welfare-state, but I spoke about the welfare state here in another thread). The rest (foreign affairs and military capacity) is a matter of will.

US are maybe not aware about Europe's indirect, soft or out-of-sight power. Partly because Europe doesn't express it. Partly because Europe has no idea she's so powerful. But Europe does not want to be a sort of America and I said it out loud in an article I wrote for the « Financial Times » in January 2000 (web-published on February 3rd) during the 2000 Davos World Economic Forum (« Does Europe need an American-style Constitution ? »)*.
[/quote]

I agree on China not becoming a super power on a short term basis. Every aspect it is now thought of to have economic potential is still a sign that it is in fact a developing nation - a huge and young population and cheap labour. Indeed it's economic growth has been spectacular, but like Raal said, where do you start from? Upto the Asia Crisis almost every South East Asian country had a stunning economic growth, but it turned out to be based on a weak foundation. China has it's next revolution ahead, the fall of it's communist regime, and it will cause major problems and set the country back quite some years. History has taught us that I think.

On Europe. Europe could, could become an economic superpower, we are a power already, just not very super yet :). And I think it would be healthy if we would become one, to have some kind of balance, but I think that we are still far from it. We have a lot of financial and territorial power indeed, financial since our investments fund the US budget deficit.

But in a mix of culture and politics, we are still crippling this possibility. A lot of work still need to be done to unite us and to make us feel more like Europeans instead of French, Dutch, or Swedes. The Swedes made that very clear yesterday when they voted NEJ (or NO) in a referendum to introduce the Euro in Sweden to replace the Krone. Sweden will vote on this again no earlier than 2010, Denmark also voted no a couple of years back. I have to say that I think it sucks. If we keep stumbling like this we will get nowhere. I could add France and Germany into this not very Euro like baviour, whose budget deficits go towards the 4% (for three years in a row now) when it was agreed upon to keep it under the 3% so we could have a strong Euro. Holland has a lotta trouble getting it's budget together as well, but we did it, as much as we have to bleed for it.....and I do mean bleed. Cause as much as I believe in a government investing in economic recessions, there is also something to say for less interest payments (meaning you can spend more on e.g. education.) Ok...now I'm rambling.

In overall, we gotta get our acts together.