US Foreign policy - international views

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longtimelurker: Hmm, didn't realise the Germans have bent the rules as well. Of course, our Francophobic press took great glee in highlighting M. Chirac's reason for non-compliance - "We don't have to abide by the rules because we're too important". Hopefully the expansion to eastern Europe will help shift the balance of power a bit further away from the Franco/German axis.

BTW, don't they get heavy fines for non-compliance?

As for Sweden, I think the vote was still reasonably close - 56/42 isn't really a whitewash. As for us, I doubt very much we'll be joining the Euro anytime soon, I imagine we are probably the most eurosceptic member of the EU (helped along by Rupert Murdoch's group of right-wing press) - just the perils of being a xenophobic little island...
 
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longtimelurker: [quote author=aj2181 link=board=99;num=1063130392;start=20#36 date=09/14/03 at 20:46:35]Well I wish all you Europeans would get your acts together and oppose us more!  when yall go your own way with some being stubborn and others being pushovers it's not a wonder Dubya can do what he wants.[/quote]

I know that comment was meant to be very tongue-in-cheek aj, but it's very easy to understate exactly how difficult setting out a united Europe is.

Take as an analogy N America - now imagine that some political thinkers believe that it would be a good idea to join Canada, the US and Mexico as one common voice to the world. The politicians of the traditionally most powerful country (the US) would have to sit back and take on the others as equal partners in policy decisions which may affect their own citizens, often deleteriously. Add to that equation the prospect of giving up the three national currencies and replacing it with a new one (no more tried and tested US Dollar, replaced with an untried and untested system).

Just those two topics would cause great problems for the protagonists if only from the strong nationalism from each country's citizens. Add on top of that Europe has suffered the brunt of two world wars between nations which are now meant to join together, that there are over 20 different languages spoken in EU member countries rather than the 3 in the N America case and not least that there are 15 different countries (soon to grow to over 20) working on their own agendas rather than just 3.

Add in all that and it is a miracle that there is even a body like the EU (and never mind the Euro) - let alone that it seems to be making progress. Many, if not most Europeans view the EU with some scepticism, believing it to be a sinister organisation sucking up their money and taking over their sovereignity - it's a bit of a freak of nature that we just happen to have three Europhiles contributing to this thread, as believe me, this is not what it's really like over here!
 
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Javierdude22: [quote author=longtimelurker link=board=99;num=1063130392;start=40#41 date=09/15/03 at 13:04:59]
Add in all that and it is a miracle that there is even a body like the EU (and never mind the Euro) - let alone that it seems to be making progress. Many, if not most Europeans view the EU with some scepticism, believing it to be a sinister organisation sucking up their money and taking over their sovereignity

- it's a bit of a freak of nature that we just happen to have three Europhiles contributing to this thread, as believe me, this is not what it's really like over here![/quote]

LTL - I am not really a Europhile actually. I am very proud to be part of the European general culture, the way we acquired it through the centuries, and it's vast and intwined history.

However, I am even more proud to be Dutch and Spanish. I recognize the fact that the EU has done a lot of good things for Spain. Thing is that I do feel more Dutch, and I do not think that the EU did enough, for Holland. I stated earlier that our government and general political culture lacks a good set of balls and my agony on this topic stems from that. We are the biggest contributor to the EU budget as a percentage of our GDP. And even besides that, the second nominally!!...We are the always the best kid in school since we have the second lowest budget deficit in the EU, while France defies every agreement we made when introducing the Euro, with sometimes astounding impudence.

Now it sounds like I am a total EU skeptic, but I'm not. I ám a Euro skeptic by the terms on which it was introduced here, and can totally understand the Brittish, Danish and Swedish stance. I have yet to see a benefit for consumers. The EU though, to me is quite important, but again, I do not think it works the way it is, and will become. The contributions are too skewed, input per country not even, and all foreign stands are taken by Germany and France. But then again, it is impossible to become unanimous when you have 15 members, soon 20, so maybe it ís the only way it can work. I wish Britain would get into it then though, as I sometimes unconsciously think of Britain as an outsider to the EU.
 

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Longtimelurker

I agree with every word. Bravo.

My own conviction is that the tide of European integration is in the end unstoppable ... but you are quite right to point out the obstacles. Language for one.

Perversely, I think that the UK's uncomfortable and exposed position over Iraq has probably shifted some people towards Europe (notably those, including many like me whose instincts tend to be on the right, who found themselves applauding the French for the stand they took, as opposed to the supine attitude of our own government).
 
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throb919: Well-put, Lurker.

Take as an analogy N America - now imagine that some political thinkers believe that it would be a good idea to join Canada, the US and Mexico as one common voice to the world. The politicians of the traditionally most powerful country (the US) would have to sit back and take on the others as equal partners in policy decisions which may affect their own citizens, often deleteriously.
Look how the 3 North American countries got along (or didn't) on the single issue of NAFTRA! The US and Canada even pointed fingers at each other over whose fault the recent East Coast blackout was. (Yeah, we started the blame-game. As the mayor of Toronto asked, "When was the last time the US took the blame for anything?") For the sake of argument one time, I tried to "explain" the EU as if several US states were their own countries (not unlike pre-1776, except for that whole English-colonies-thing)--and it's more in line with size and population of European countries than taking on the whole NA continent. Imagine if North Carolina, South Carolina, Virginia, etc, each had their own language and currency and culture. Oh wait--they sort-of do. Especially when you go further afield. And the phrase "states rights" is ringing in my head. Never mind...!

Javier--financial concerns aside, The Netherlands lost Europe's (maybe the world's) prettiest currency in the switch to the Euro. (Loved those guilders.) At least the powers-that-be got the Dutch to design the Euro.
 

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I'm a europhile Europhile. At least in what I am concerned, 99.99% of the European frontiers are in our heads. I always considered the languages one of the least important obstacles in the way of European unity. I think the greatest obstacle remains the lack of understanding towards the European unification process. :( I developed this here (the third message on the page) : http://www.lpsg.org/cgi-bin/YaBB.cgi?board=99;action=display;num=1056475318;start=22

Some other comments a bit later ;)
 
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longtimelurker: [quote author=Javierdude23 link=board=99;num=1063130392;start=40#42 date=09/15/03 at 13:47:17]

LTL - I am not really a Europhile actually. I am very proud to be part of the European general culture, the way we acquired it through the centuries, and it's vast and intwined history.
[/quote]

Sorry Javier - I can see that a lot better in the other thread. Still, I don't see you are a true eurosceptic as I would understand one to be (quite a few Brits would like nothing better than to see the UK withdraw from the EU entirely). Kinda reminds me of press comments at the time of the asassination of your far-right presidential candidate a year or so back: 'a far-right Dutch politician is probably more left-wing than our most left-wing politicians here'...
 
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throb919: [quote author=longtimelurker link=board=99;num=1063130392;start=40#46 date=09/16/03 at 11:57:20]Kinda reminds me of press comments at the time of the assassination of your far-right presidential candidate a year or so back: 'a far-right Dutch politician is probably more left-wing than our most left-wing politicians here'...[/quote]
Good point, LTL! Where else but The Netherlands could a flamboyant, openly gay, thrived-on-controversary individual such as Pim Fortuyn be considered "far-right"? (I live in an environment where for years, anyone left of Jesse Helms was labeled "radical liberal.") Imagine: using the country's acceptance of homosexuality as justification for anti-Islamic views; the first stumbling block in that argument (for the rest of the world) is "the country's acceptance..." I do think some of his thoughts on immigration had merit. I'm all about "Give us your tired, your poor, your huddled masses" as the US is a country of immigrants; but we don't have a very good handle on the situation now either.

(Javier--get up off the floor. Yes, there is the occasional American who knows an iota about Dutch politics...!)
 
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aj2181: Yes my comments were to some extent tongue-in-cheek. I'm prone to bitchyness when it comes to Politics.

So with that in mind I'll issue this preempitve statement of my intentions when posting on this and other topics that are prone to bring out my hidden bitch.

I apologize to anyone I may offend for any nasty and or otherwise bitchy comments. ;)

I happen to be of the variety of Americans who love and have always loved Europe. I think all Europeans have had in their collective past some of the most extraordinary events, some of the most heartbreaking events, some of the most inlightening events.

You Europeans and your ancestors are the ancestors of those who founded this country. I cant trace my family back to England, Scotland, Prussia, The Netherlands and Belgium. I can trace my family back before there was a United States. I love both the U.S. and Europe.

That is why I favor the European Union. Not because I want yall to over-run the U.S. Because when all of you are united you will be strong, vibrant, together on a common path. Respecting your pasts, creating your future. Being together is better than being apart. Being allied is better than being at odds. Being a family of nations untied is better than being fractionalized.
 
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SpeedoGuy: [quote author=aj2181 link=board=99;num=1063130392;start=40#48 date=09/16/03 at 16:35:59].

That is why I favor the European Union. Not because I want yall to over-run the U.S. Because when all of you are united you will be strong, vibrant, together on a common path. Respecting your pasts, creating your future. Being together is better than being apart. Being allied is better than being at odds. Being a family of nations untied is better than being fractionalized.[/quote]

Well said, aj. I'm in agreement. I also wouldn't want to see a strong EU to someday run roughshod over the US but I also don't want it the other way around, either. Mutual respect, mutual cooperation. One thing I think is pretty clear, European nations closely tied economically with each other are certainly less likely to war on each other. Given the history of the 20th century, that is a good thing for us all. And besides, the single Euro currency makes travelling a lot simpler for an easily-confused Yankee like me when I visit over there. lol.

I haven't visited Europe enough to be considered a Europhile but I can't deny I find Europe's history and people and culture interesting. I've visited the UK, Ireland, France, Germany and Switzerland. I like listening to their conversations (such has been hapenning here in this forum) not because I find them quaint or amusing but because I enjoy hearing informed persepectives on diverse world events that are so often lacking here in the states. We get so much mono-media commercially oriented blather masquerading as news here that it just about drives me barmy. I'm starved to listen to a Scot respectfully discuss world events with a Frenchman and a Dutchman. And the best thing about it is there are no interruptions for some stupid ass advertisements right in the middle of it.

So keep up the good work.

Cheers to all

SG
 

Ralexx

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Well, I still see a need for Europe. (If you don't believe me, just try to eliminate from your life everything Europe offered to you in the last 50 years : peace, prosperity and - less (because nobody thought at that), a spiritual community. Thank you, America, for your Marshall Plan !)

Europe has no birthday. Does it have to ? Why, France does ? England does ? If you'll tell me US have July 4th, I'll tell you that that's wrong : America - as Utopia - was an idea who's appearance preceded by centuries the creation of the political state. Europe was born the moment one thought about unifying the Christian lands of the continent "Europa"
Europe has no clear frontiers. C'mon ! Is THAT so important ? Don't tell me : you cannot sleep at night thinking about where Europe ends, LOL ! Well, to me, it's obvious that Europe's limits varied always, especially in the east, where the frontier changed every time Europe and respectively Asia were successively powerful. I don't know why is it hard to conceive the identity as "changing". (It will be only now that these European frontiers will finally freeze, as they follow well-defined state-borders. But one forgets the cultural frontiers ;) ) After all, unifying Europe is not unifying states, it's unifying peoples. There's the key : Europe is a space for peoples and persons, not for governmental manoeuvres. If you feel it's rather the last one, take action. (No one offers a chance to a European identity, but wonders why Europe is weak and "no one loves it". Did you try ? I remember having a dispute with a Danish pal last year : "why would I assume another cultural identity than mine ?" "did you try ?", I asked him. "No". Aha! well...) I say it again : unifying Europe is not unifying states, it's unifying peoples. It's not erasing cultures, it's not destroying national identities ; it's giving them flexibility and another frame. This frame and this flexibility proved its value in the last 50 years.  

That we're too diverse to unite ? ~ chuckling ~ It's an imaginary obstacle, it's the last refuge for the nationalists (I thought this race is perishing !). This "diversity as obstacle" is just a joke for a historian or a cultural critic. The differences between the Gascons, the Burgunds and the Normands, between Oldenburg Frisons and the Bavarians, between the Piemontans and the Calabrians did not obstruct France, Germany and respectively Italy to unify.
Even more, for all this diversity, you'll continuously see a German reading Dante, a French reading Kazantzakis : for the simple fact we have the same passions, ideas, torments. For all this diversity, once more, you'll continuously see a Portuguese listening to Mozart, a Polish listening to Beethoven. (We understand the same music and we have the same musical principles - in fact, I think that's our true and deep common European language, abstract and concealed.) When I have such consistent proofs of life, the nationalist points of view gradually reached a level where I see them both nonsensical (half-irrational) and fraudulent.
You'll feel how Europeans you are when leaving Europe. Visit Asia, Africa, even America. Seen from inside or from too close, Europe gives the impression she doesn't exist - it's like the story of the biologist who wanted to study an elephant by microscope. All he saw were grey colours and some crevasses, so he concluded elephants do not exist.

A European identity is not the identity offered by the European Union. The missing point is "un-birth" (allow me to put it in this way) of a European mystique, of a credo in this Continent. Because what makes the metaphysical unity of this Continent is its culture and its art, which are the ultimate expression of the Europeans. If your roots will be in Culture, Europe is so easy to understand ! European culture is a fatherland in itself (at least for me). Europe ? E = mc² ! Europe = a continental mass multiplied by intensive culture (culture²) ! That's a hell of an equation :D and tells so much to me !

More I hear opinions of a certain temperate scepticism, more I realise where the true problem of the European Union lies. As ever result of the compromise between national interests, the EU's institutions, as I see them, excluded one of the most important principles : the subsidiarity. Instead of being involved in the grand lines of the Continental unity (foreign affairs, currency, defence, etc.), EU's recommendations and directives touch the everyday life, where the national state should do its business : the ISOs and the agricultural quotas, the diameter of an apple (!), the "regularly" accepted curving of a banana (!, Christ !), the decibels' levels allowed for a tondeuse (damn ; how do you call in English those machines you cut the lawn's grass with ? :p). Who's fault ? National states', who never considered abandoning their prerogatives. That's why EU became annoying for the EU population. "Brussels tells me what to do, what to eat, etc." Hm, that's because the "beloved" states didn't allow it to do its real transnational business.  

As ever « in the name of Europe »,
Raal
 

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A short comment on Britain, if I may... I hope everyone is realistic enough : getting out of the EU now would mean an awful downfall. For the UK, not for the EU. (Anyone can remember the triple rejection of the British candidature in the 1960s by the former-EEC.) Thatcherite ideas ! « I want my money back ! » goes next to « We, the British, have more in common with the Americans » (naturally, that's why, ever since the 1950s, United Kingdom is seen as the 51st American state) and with « the EU will fail. » (It didn't fail in 50 years, Margaret honey !). Britain's population comes from "the" Continent, its language is Germanic (thus from "the abhorred" Continent), its entire history is a Euro-centred one, the name of its currency "liura estrelinga" is Latin, its culture and its art and its architecture are totally European. But Margaret thinks she can deny evidence ; and there are even supporters who grant her the Ubuesque credit of telling the truth because there are 20 miles of insignificant sea between them and the "bloody" Continent. (Of course you end up seeing newspaper threads like this one in the « Times » I read in February 1998 : "Blizzard on the Channel. Europe cut off from Britain." :D :D :D ! Europe - a Continent, 34 states, 34 capitals, 450 millions inhabitants - cut off from an island. :D) Oh please, my dear Brits, forget this woman and her ideas, you can do better than that ! (And don't sell Buckingham Palace to Coca Cola Co. ! :p ) Nobody asked United Kingdom to devotedly embrace the Euro-unity ideas, but God knows a bit of distinction and positive judgement would be reasonable : the European Devil isn't that dark & black. ;)
 
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throb919: Alors, Raal! Je ne peux dire rien après ça...sauf peut-être << lawnmower >> ! ;-)
 

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C'est ça, alors, la meilleure réponse :D ! Tondeuse = lawnmower ! Thank you, Throb ! :D
 

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Radu,

I agree with much of what you say. But just to risk one slight disagreement .. the original of that quote was (I think):

"Fog in the Channel. Continent isolated." And it was a spoof headline from way before 1998.

We Brits can laugh at ourselves, given a bit of practice.
 

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:D That's true, Max ; an uncle of mine (from UK - Manchester) told me these headlines appear often in UK :). (I don't know what does he understand by "often", but...) He mentioned me the same thing happening in the '70s, the '80s. But I recollected this particular one from 1998 because BSkyB (in press review) also made some funny comments...

PS - OMG !! I miss so much BSkyB ! (I've got only EuroNews here...) There was this delightful, vivacious red-headed... what was her name... ?... oh, and the weather-guy (Adam ... ) with his humour... oooh, good-old days when I was (physically) closer to UK...
 
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longtimelurker: [quote author=Max link=board=99;num=1063130392;start=40#54 date=09/17/03 at 11:23:10]
We Brits can laugh at ourselves, given a bit of practice.

[/quote]

Hmm, I always thought self-depreciation was our main form of humour!

Wow - my first thread is a 'hot topic'! <beams with pride> ;D

Even so... Raal, I still have to say that I still feel that we are quite a bit more 'americanised' culturally than mainland Europe. The way in which I see this is that you have the US and mainland Europe on either end of the spectrum with the UK and Canada somewhere in-between (the Canadians and even my fellow Brits here may disagree with me on this...). Maybe the common language, maybe that Britain was the last ruling power there before the war of independance, or perhaps just political choices following the two world wars, who knows?

The comments of Thatcher on the UK being more closely linked with the US than the EU economically was at the time based on sound economic evidence, however (just don't ask me to go into details!) - hence why we had to pull out of the ERM so dramatically, leaving us with 11%+ interest rates etc. Having said that, I cannot honestly say where we lie now, as I'm a scientist, not an economist.

And hey, SG, I'm English - I just happen to be studying in Scotland at the moment! :)
 
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SpeedoGuy: [quote author=Raal Lexx link=board=99;num=1063130392;start=40#50 date=09/17/03 at 01:37:45]. Thank you, America, for your Marshall Plan !)[/quote]

Your welcome. It was worth saving.

[quote author=longtimelurker link=board=99;num=1063130392;start=40#56 date=09/17/03 at 12:11:07]

And hey, SG, I'm English - I just happen to be studying in Scotland at the moment!  :)[/quote]

Beg pardon for the faux pas! What science are you studying?

SG
 
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longtimelurker: [quote author=SpeedoGuy link=board=99;num=1063130392;start=40#57 date=09/17/03 at 20:10:04]

Your welcome. It was worth saving.


Beg pardon for the faux pas! What science are you studying?

SG
[/quote]

Hey, no offence taken! I'm currently studying for my PhD in Medicinal Chemistry - cure for cancer here I come!
 

Ralexx

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[quote author=longtimelurker link=board=99;num=1063130392;start=40#56 date=09/17/03 at 12:11:07] Raal, I still have to say that I still feel that we are quite a bit more 'americanised' culturally than mainland Europe. [/quote]

This is something I would love to hear more about. "Americanised" - but do you feel...well, free, do you feel yourselves in this American skin ? How is such an Americanisation regarded by the society ? Do you feel it's a choice or it simply happens ?

I'd be most grateful for your reply.  :)