Vegan vs. Meat Eater

[D_Hyacinth Harrytwat]

That's interesting. I hadn't thought about that. "Millions" sounds rather high but it's plausible given the amount acreage and the extensive mechanization. That somewhat knocks the wind out of the sails of those who insist meat shouldn't be consumed because it "harms" animals.

But there is far more energy put into raising animals, ie cattle, for slaughter, than to grow crops. Think about third world nations. Having meat is a luxury. Animals require far more clean water and far more grain to produce one pound of food than if we just ate the grain ourselves.

 

[The Dragon]

Education is key. Agree or disagree with PETA and their practices, their videos can't be denied. See how the typical chicken is raised, watch a live dolphin dragged from a truck on chains or see how the side effect of milk production is the veal industry. It made me think twice at the grocery store.

Modern humans have been around for 200,000 years but current industrial farming practices have only been around for... less than 100 years?

With all due respect devildix, Bbucko was responding to my comments on shark finning, NOT PETA.
Peta are a bunch of crack pot fundamentalists who are even against pet ownership.
Trying to use comments on other issues to prove a point on a unrelated topic is lazy.

 

[Bbucko]

With all due respect devildix, Bbucko was responding to my comments on shark finning, NOT PETA.
Peta are a bunch of crack pot fundamentalists who are even against pet ownership.
Trying to use comments on other issues to prove a point on a unrelated topic is lazy.

My concerns were for the impact of removing such an enormous predator from the ecosystem and thinking what a terrible waste of food.

Individual sharks mean nothing to me whatsoever unless they threaten me.

 

[Not_Punny]

As one of the few resident "vegans" of LPSG, I have to speak out!!

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First of all, I am more macrobiotic than vegan = I don't eat dairy or meat, but I eat fish 1 - 3 times a week. (I also have leather shoes and purses)

If anyone wants to look at my gallery, I am not fat. I am also not sickly thin, although I do sometimes have to work at maintaining my muscle mass. I also have the blood panel and arteries of a very healthy teenager.

- - - - -

Second of all, if man really was supposed to be an omnivore, then why does an omnivorous diet make him FAT?

Or was obesity part of the "master plan"?

- - - - -

Thirdly, dairy is questionable for humans. But if you want to eat food that is designed to make little calves gain weight quickly, then go for it. But don't whine about being fat or having cardiovascular disease.

- - - - - -

Fourthly, although I don't eat it, I do cook meat for my kids and for guests. It smells good but (to me) tastes gross.

So I cook by smell. Fish, which I do eat, doesn't have the same "dead, decayed" taste as chicken, beef, port and lamb.

- - - - - -

Fifthly, I am not against animal farming. I am, however, against inhumane conditions, and am thankful that public awareness is being raised on the subject. The conditions in which livestock are raised are sometimes truly shocking.

However, some farms are more humane than others, and I'd be willing to pay a higher dollar amount for humanely raised meat, just as I do for humanely raised eggs (which I also cook for other people).

 

[HazelGod]

Second of all, if man really was supposed to be an omnivore, then why does an omnivorous diet make him FAT?

Or was obesity part of the "master plan"?

A diet doesn't make one fat...the caloric content of the diet and its relationship to the body's overall activity (or lack thereof) does. You're making the mistake of judging the question only against first-world cultures. If you expand your analysis to include tribal and aboriginal peoples, I think you might change your beliefs on this point.

 

[Not_Punny]

A diet doesn't make one fat...the caloric content of the diet and its relationship to the body's overall activity (or lack thereof) does. You're making the mistake of judging the question only against first-world cultures. If you expand your analysis to include tribal and aboriginal peoples, I think you might change your beliefs on this point.

I've studied lots of diets. It's a point of fascination for me.

And, no, it's not just calories. Our bodies ALSO have hormone responses to the micro constituents of food. And many of us have intolerances to different food groups. For example, studies show that people truly can and do gain weight drinking "zero" calorie soft drinks.

But all that aside, I'm using the word "omnivore" in the American sense. Tribes and aboriginals are "omnivores" in a completely different way than Americans.

You can't MIX everything up the way that Americans do. You can't eat grains AND meat together. And you simply CAN'T eat tons of dairy.

 

[WifeOfBath]

If anyone wants to look at my gallery, I am not fat. I am also not sickly thin, although I do sometimes have to work at maintaining my muscle mass. I also have the blood panel and arteries of a very healthy teenager.

This is debatable. I've often thought that you could use to gain a little weight when I looked at your gallery-- however since you live in LA the standard is a bit different than elsewhere. With that said, you're obviously a very attractive woman, but in my experience you are on the extreme end of thinness, especially for a woman over 30.

Blood panels aren't always indicative of overall health-- Blood pressure and cholesterol specifically are so driven by genetics that it doesn't mean that someone with elevated BP or high cholesterol eats unhealthily. I could eat cheeseburgers and fries every day and my cholesterol would still be very low and my BP about 100/60.

Your diet obviously works for what you want, but I don't think it's the solution for everyone. Neither is your relative health on that diet indicative of its superiority. To each his own.

 

[HazelGod]

I've studied lots of diets. It's a point of fascination for me.

And, no, it's not just calories. Our bodies ALSO have hormone responses to the micro constituents of food. And many of us have intolerances to different food groups.

As the husband of someone with coeliac sprue, believe me when I tell you that I'm hyper-aware of dietary minutiae. It's become a point of fascination out of necessity. I was speaking purely in the simplest terms before, as that's will have the largest impact on your body.

I'm using the word "omnivore" in the American sense. Tribes and aboriginals are "omnivores" in a completely different way than Americans.

That's all well and good, but when you say things like this...

if man really was supposed to be an omnivore, then why does an omnivorous diet make him FAT?

Or was obesity part of the "master plan"?

...that doesn't really limit the scope to Americans, does it? It logically reads as though you're discussing all of mankind as a species. From a biological design standpoint, homo sapiens sapiens is definitely an omnivorous animal.

You can't MIX everything up the way that Americans do. You can't eat grains AND meat together. And you simply CAN'T eat tons of dairy.

I disagree. You eat TONS of anything and don't move your ass, you'll become obese...that's not rocket science. The problem, IMO, with most fat-assed westerners is that there's no scarcity of resources; and because food is ever plentiful, they eat out of habit rather than necessity. I don't understand that aspect of this culture...people dole themselves enormous portions and fear to leave anything uneaten. Combine that with the largely sedentary lifestyles and voila! ...instant lardass. As for mixing foods, I do it all the time...meats, poultry, fish, grains, legumes, dairy, green vegetables...and I'm hardly what anyone would call a fatboy.

 

[Yorkie]

I've never seen an obese vegetarian/vegan.

Then you aren't looking hard enough. :biggrin1:I have a friend who was a vegetarian for 3 years and while already overweight, became positively obese on a vegetarian diet. All of us in her social circle marveled at her ability to make vegetables unhealthy and fattening. I think she lived on cheese fries, and fried mozzarella sticks.

I should have known! Trust America to have obese vegetarians. :smile:
Granted,if someone lives on chips,cheesecake,chocolate and beer they will resemble Humpty Dumpty but I don't know anyone like that.
I consider a vegetarian diet to mean variety.Didn't your friend ever eat any greens?

 

[D_Hyacinth Harrytwat]

This is debatable. I've often thought that you could use to gain a little weight when I looked at your gallery-- however since you live in LA the standard is a bit different than elsewhere. With that said, you're obviously a very attractive woman, but in my experience you are on the extreme end of thinness, especially for a woman over 30.

Blood panels aren't always indicative of overall health-- Blood pressure and cholesterol specifically are so driven by genetics that it doesn't mean that someone with elevated BP or high cholesterol eats unhealthily. I could eat cheeseburgers and fries every day and my cholesterol would still be very low and my BP about 100/60.

Your diet obviously works for what you want, but I don't think it's the solution for everyone. Neither is your relative health on that diet indicative of its superiority. To each his own.

Blood pressure and cholesterol really are driven by genetics, so if you're in danger of having high levels of LDL cholesterol, it is recommended that you cut out animal.

Also, I think that punny's structure and shape are also due to her genetics. Her and I eat basically the same things, but I'm a big girl who gains muscle just as fast as a man does. I can also pack on the fat like nobody's business, but I can't pack on fat when I'm eating vegetarian. In the end, the question is, is she happy with her body? Does she feel good?

But yes, in the end - To each his own. We're not here for long.

 

[Not_Punny]

This is debatable. I've often thought that you could use to gain a little weight when I looked at your gallery-- however since you live in LA the standard is a bit different than elsewhere. With that said, you're obviously a very attractive woman, but in my experience you are on the extreme end of thinness, especially for a woman over 30.

Blood panels aren't always indicative of overall health-- Blood pressure and cholesterol specifically are so driven by genetics that it doesn't mean that someone with elevated BP or high cholesterol eats unhealthily. I could eat cheeseburgers and fries every day and my cholesterol would still be very low and my BP about 100/60.

Your diet obviously works for what you want, but I don't think it's the solution for everyone. Neither is your relative health on that diet indicative of its superiority. To each his own.

LOL -- you're right on many counts.

However, I'm the only one of my siblings who is slim (they got chunky when they hit their mid thirties), and both my mom and dad had heart disease... so I'd say diet is a major factor in my health/weight.

There are many factors that dictate health, but many things CAN be controlled by food choices and exercise.

 

[Not_Punny]

LOL -- time to roll up my sleeves...

As the husband of someone with coeliac sprue, believe me when I tell you that I'm hyper-aware of dietary minutiae. It's become a point of fascination out of necessity. I was speaking purely in the simplest terms before, as that's will have the largest impact on your body.
.

I don't disagree with you, and I think we're both talking about the same coin (oh... did somebody mention my pending application to the Sesteritous Society...:biggrin1

That's all well and good, but when you say things like this...
...that doesn't really limit the scope to Americans, does it? It logically reads as though you're discussing all of mankind as a species. From a biological design standpoint, homo sapiens sapiens is definitely an omnivorous animal.
.

OKOKOK, you win! I should have been more accurate!! SAD (Standard American Diet) is what I should have said.

And I myself am "vegan" only in the general sense. Strictly speaking I'm pretty much omnivorous because I do eat fish at least once a week. However, "meat" (fish) only constitutes maybe 1% of my total intake. Dairy is the only "food group" that I avoid like the plague.

However, unlike most "vegetarians", I truly DO eat a lot of vegetables.

I disagree. You eat TONS of anything and don't move your ass, you'll become obese...that's not rocket science. The problem, IMO, with most fat-assed westerners is that there's no scarcity of resources; and because food is ever plentiful, they eat out of habit rather than necessity. I don't understand that aspect of this culture...people dole themselves enormous portions and fear to leave anything uneaten. Combine that with the largely sedentary lifestyles and voila! ...instant lardass. As for mixing foods, I do it all the time...meats, poultry, fish, grains, legumes, dairy, green vegetables...and I'm hardly what anyone would call a fatboy.

Apparently there is a "stretch" mechanism in our stomach that signals our brain when we've had "enough."

Problem is, Americans eat foods that are very DENSE in calories, so when they finally get the signal, "enough", their calorie intake is a disaster.

I eat mountains of food -- I just know WHAT to eat to keep my nutrition high and my calories low.

 

[jack99821]

A thought occurred to me, and after doing a quick search on "omnivore" I'm still left with a fairly vague explanation. Would an omnivore have to eat both meat and plants to be considered an omnivore?

Carnivores who sometimes eat grass aren't called omnivores, and herbivores who have some meat intake aren't either. It seems like the question boils down to what is required for survival. Those carnivores and herbivores couldn't survive on plants and meat (respectively) alone.

Humans can't survive on meat alone, but we have plenty of vegetarians running around. That seems to indicate we're just herbivores who eat meat by choice.
So I'll say I'm an herbivore who eats meat (for the protein, among other things) by choice.

 

[HyperHulk]

I like meat. 90% of the meat I eat is turkey, chicken, eggs, tuna and salmon. The other 10% is hamburger and steak. I feel a bit bad knowing how a lot of meat is produced, but I'm not willing to become a vege-anything to give up meat. I also love cheese but have tried to change from milk to soy milk.

I have gone vegan for 2 separate 2 week stints when I was doing a detox diet program. I was actually amazed that I could go that long without meet and I ate pretty well and was always full. Nowadays there are so many vegetarian "meat" substitutes that you could easily have variations on your favorite meals. However you need access to these options, extra time to plan your meals and extra money--vegetarian/vegan/organic seems to cost quite a bit.

I admire vegans/vegetarians but they are awfully hard to cook for when you have a dinner party. I always worry that I don't have enough food for them or that I've included something that the are against--it's stressful.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[mista geechee]

I don't think the term omnivore means you are required to eat meat. I just think it means you are capable of getting nutrients from both.

For example , if you are stranted in the wilderness and are in danger of starving , you can eat the liver of an animal (preferably a mammal) for almost instant energy since it's full of vitamins and irons and what not. Any plants that do the same?

 

[cocktoberfest]

With all due respect devildix, Bbucko was responding to my comments on shark finning, NOT PETA.
Peta are a bunch of crack pot fundamentalists who are even against pet ownership.
Trying to use comments on other issues to prove a point on a unrelated topic is lazy.

Apologies Dragonfly20 and BBucko. I wasn't trying to hijack or misrepresent... just taking a tangent and sharing my personal opinion in this "vegan vs. meat eater" discussion.

 

[Bbucko]

Apologies Dragonfly20 and BBucko. I wasn't trying to hijack or misrepresent... just taking a tangent and sharing my personal opinion in this "vegan vs. meat eater" discussion.

Which opinion is that?

 

[ZOS23xy]

well after seeing the documentary on the CCD (Colony Collapse Disorder) It seems vegans will become a dying breed just like the bees. If the bees keep disappearing then so will all the fruits and vegetables. I guess you have to eat meat to survive. That or grass,wheat and corn and other grains which are pollinated by wind. And it seems that is not just limited to bees. Other insects that pollinate are dwindling as well. Some bee keeper have report up to 80 percent loss in there hives over the last year. Japan or maybe it was China already has been hand pollinating its fruit trees. US predicts hand pollination of corps could add 10 billion dollars to the cost of food production in the United State, I think I got the facts right I'm trying to remember from the show last night.

Dang it I really like tomatoes on my burger too.

You are talking about domesticated honeybees. Herein where I live, plants are pollinated by anything that can do it. There are wasps, hornets, sweat bees, butterflies, some forms of flies and others I may have missed.
Reliance on the bees is over stated.