Veiled Racism in America, on LPSG

[jeff black]

What's the problem with this board today??

One person states an opinion, and it turns into a crap fest. I don't understand racism or respect it. What is the purpose of attacking anyone becasue of their pigmentation, accent, or physical features? People are just people, not peices of trash to kick around when we are in a bad mood.

For Fuck Sakes people, This is a SUPPORT GROUP. Everyone needs to get over whatever their egos are saying. You think the comment is directed to you? Then say something to them in private.

We are educated people, I would think that each of us is better than this,

This is a battle of the "gays vs the blacks vs the whites vs the straights."
Pathetic, this should have been a great conversation about the injustice of Racism in ANY FORM. Join together people, and fight against the grand issue, as apposed to any personal little details. I dont' want to specifically address the specific people, as it is not my idea of requirement. If you are in doubt of my feelings, PM me, and we can discuss this.

You Members are all great people. Seriously, leave the petty fights for the playground.

All the best,
Jeff

STRONZO, this is not a personal attack on you, I swear. You know I respect you. I think that everyone is entitled to their opinion.

 

[AlteredEgo]

I was pleased to see this thread re-opened and am stepping back to be able to post without anger which I find warps the true message of what I have to say. Please everyone, stay on topic so the thread will remain open. I have much to say but am on my way to Brooklyn and won't be home until late.

*Translation:
Whiners: Quit yer bitchin'
Enablers: Stop talking to whiners.

 

[madame_zora]

It would appear mods can say anything unkind they like. If indeed they have no "special privileges"... I'll say only this about the emasculating Madame Z-

Well here ya go folks:

Watch out. Don't lift Jana's dominatrix skirt. You won't find what you expect there. It'll be a rather insignificant member with botox filled balls.

Jana? Get a grip.

Sorry Bronx, this needs to be addressed. I'll keep it brief.

Stronzo, please remember I keep PMs and the mods keep messages. Since you have joined, you started immediately sending me PMs whining about "horrible straight men". At first I spent a lot of time explaining why each one wasn't horrible, until the last one when I just told you to shut the fuck up. Since then, you've whacked out on me. I can post the letters to prove this, or you can just shut up. Before you whine about that, I'll remind you that YOU threatened to post MY PMs first. I don't mind, I'm not ashamed of what I say. How about you?

 

[GoneA]

GoneA, I think that's the biggest part of the problem, until members of the "majority" on any issue begin taking up the causes of "minorites", they don't get heard. Like it or not, white males end up in the "majority" on most issues, and until white males decide they are willing to sacrifice some portion of the position of priveledge they've been alloted, nothing will change.

Yes MMZ, I think you've really hit the nail on the head. It all boils down to issues of power, and those with the power are, in essence, the majority. Ultimately, to experience a mass change of attitude and perception, they have to have a "change of heart."

One thing I always resepcted about ChimeraTX was that he didn't shrink away from his racist doctrines, nor did he deny his position of priveledge. He came out and said that he would not be eager to give up a position of advantage, but the real demons are not the ones that are so "in your face"- they're the ones with smiling eyes and hearts in denial (Hypochristian mantra- "Oh, I love you, but Jesus says you're going to Hell! Have a nice day, and God Bless!).

While I can safely conclude that ChimeraTX lived underneath a nice, smooth rock his entire existence, I did respect him (if you really wanna dignify my sentiments with such a term) because he wasn't closeted! At least I knew where I stood with him. Your right MMZ, the worst kind of racism is the one executed covertly. You're never really getting anywhere with them.

 

[Lex]

There are lots of issues in this thread. I hope that we can all overcome them to have a discussion.

Yes, Stronzo was singled out, and while unfortunate, his response has been (to quote another member who is NOT black) "the reaction you sometimes gets from white people when they are called racist." When someone calls me unfair or despotic or say that I have "changed"--I don't say "FUCK YOU"--I say--go back and read all my posts and PROVE it. If they can then they can. They can't.

Because I noted some personal observations about overt and subliminal racism in a thread you perceive those statements are support for the thread starter, when I was simply adding my own insight to the discussion.

Back to said discussion:

The underlying premise of this thread is that we ALL sometimes say things, imply things that we (un)intentionally mean as racist or bigoted or mysognynistic. The key here is veiled racism as intentional or NOT. Still racism, nonetheless.

And in those cases, it is the viewpoint of the OFFENDED person which must be carefully considered.

It's like the arguments against Hip-Hop.

Some people say:"It's nonsense, it's noise. Why can't those kids find something else to talk about."

When the REAL Question is: "Why is it that poor (urban/rural) kids in America (white or black) feel compelled to talk about the same issues? Could it be that they face similar issues across location? Coulod there be issues in the urban/rural landscape that require attention?"

It is much easier to think the problem is with the perception of the picture than with the picture painter.

 

[b.c.]

Racism, without doubt, is alive and well in America. But i think (like most things of it's kind) it has evolved into a newer, more subtle, yet more virulent form of being.

In the 60's and 70's it was easier to attack it head on. Racists and racism were more easily identifiable, in part because it and they were all too eager to identify themselves as such. No searching through subtexts, and hidden agendas, and "buzz words" and such. It stood proudly before us, proclaiming to all its right to exist.

As Zora indicated, such "beings" still exist within our society today. But for many more, racism has evolved into more subtle forms, so much so that many people affected with the "disease" don't even know they have it.

For example, now when someone points out a possible instance of racism, they get accused of "playing the race card". The race CARD?? Since when has race (and racism) become a card? (And if so, were they not the cards dealt?)

The purpose of the term (which undoubtedly came from some conservative think tank, along with other gems like "bleeding heart liberal", "read my lips", "make my day", and "a thousand points of light") is, of course, to disarm the allegation of racism. By turning the charge into a "card" the accused can turn the tables, make the accuser the villian for being so "crass" as to bring up the issue in the first place.

In fact, the idea that "racism" is a card, played for the benefit of the "holder", has gained a significant foothold in the American psyche, absolving all inclined to racism from any guilt (not that there was much to begin with).

Free of such guilt or worry many of these individuals have therefore come to believe they are not in fact racists at all. They're perfectly normal. It's the accuser who has the problem.

To often tho, in mixed company, they slip up and give themselves away by starting a sentence with, "I'm not a racist, but..." Whenever I hear that, I know a "gem" is sure to follow.

So having lulled ourselves then into this "perfect slumber" only to wake up this morning to Bronxy's topic, "Veiled Racism in America..." must have been like being hit with...well, with a bombshell. Like a glass of cold water thrown in the face.

But now that we are "awake" perhaps we can discuss it in a rational and sensible manner.

 

[Matthew]

While I can safely conclude that ChimeraTX lived underneath a nice, smooth rock his entire existence, I did respect him ... because he wasn't closeted!

OK, that was funny.

 

[B_Stronzo]

There are lots of issues in this thread. I hope that we can all overcome them to have a discussion.

As do I Lex.

Yes, Stronzo was singled out, and while unfortunate, his response has been (to quote another member who is NOT black) "the reaction you sometimes gets from white people when they are called racist." When someone calls me unfair or despotic or say that I have "changed"--I don't say "FUCK YOU"--I say--go back and read all my posts and PROVE it. If they can then they can. They can't.

My response, Lex, was indeed that of a white person being called a 'racist' by another poster. Your response to being called a "despot" is that you've 'changed'. I can only assume you were one in the first place.

Again, I'm no racist. But equally I'm no apologist for my own race either. Let's be clear on that. What went on here was its own form of persecution and Madame_zora's and alex8's 'whining' remarks notwithstanding , I'll only say this: I am a "racist" in only the sense doctor Rock suggests .. to paraphrase "I don't like the human race" by in large. And indeed the more I observe it I don't hold out great hope for us as a species.

Now to the topic at hand:

I agree more with what Shelby has said and the sooner people look at us as the family of man rather than "us and them" the better off we'll be. There's a double standard that allows people like me to be called "racist" since we're perceived as white and monied and educated. Is it fair? No. Is it expected? Yes.

In the larger picture I have the perspective of a gay white male. And though I sense a rather "anti-male" theme in certain posters generally on this board I'm not going to throw the baby out with the bath water and condemn all "white men" as one poster has. Why, somehow, is that acceptable where other 'bigotry' is not? Curious phenomenon that.

I think Shelby's questions on the bottom of the first page of this thread are very appropriate and illustrate the extreme degree to which the pendulum has swung.

I believe there's legitimate racism today which is directed at black and Hispanic Americans. I believe further that it is comparable to what we're seeing directed at gay folks now (though only in its infancy). That said, I have about as little respect for 'whining' queens as I do any other minority who 'whines'.

Isn't "whine" a lovely dismissive word?

I simply address each prejudice as it comes toward me, and that marginalization (no matter what its focus) is without bias. Count on it.

 

[vinny_spiruccino]

Well Damn...

OK, though I''m known mostly for being light & flirty, and many may believe I have no substance, this one hits close to home...

My mother was very young when I was born, and the two of us (my dad was never around) lived with her mother, my grandmother until I was maybe 4 or 5. During that time, my mom put herself through nursing school in hopes to make a little money and be able to live independantly. She got her first job offer at a commumity hospital in South East DC. If you're from DC, you know where this is going... SE is NOTORIOUSLY "the hood".

My grandmother was a very religious woman; mom wasn't. Gramma's BIG fear was that we'd move to the big city & my days in Sunday School would come to an end - partly because mom wasn't so churchy, and partly because the new job required mom to work weekends. She picked up the phone, & rang an old friend who had moved to DC many years prior & was raising 4 grand daughters of her own, on social security. After explaining my situation, her friend "Mom Lee" agreed to provide daycare for my mom while she worked weekends. That, along with assurances to gramps that I'd still be in church on Sunday... 2 birds, 1 stone, so to speak.

Gramma & Mom Lee knew each other from years earlier, from attending the same church as young girls. The church had been burned down because they allowed "race mixing" - Mom Lee was Black. Her family began attending a different church after, & once in DC, she belonged to a church close to home in her all Black neighborhood. This became my home for the weekends, & her Black church - my church too.

Once while outside playing in the neighborhood, I overheard some of the other kids freely using the "N" word, and thinking nothing of it, I threw it out a few times as well. I was really little, & had no idea what I was saying & REALLY didn't understand the butt kicking I took over it. I went home, all banged up & crying, to find Mom Lee in the kitchen (her cooking would make you WEEP) and told her what had happened. She gathered me up on her lap, wiped my nose, and tried her best to explain why the neighborhood kids got so upset when I used that word. I didn't quite understand, but remember asking (since we were on the topic) how come she was brown & I was "peach".

She told me that long long ago, everyone was brown all over. God had seperated land from water, so the land where all the brown people lived was very dry. Finally, they came upon a lake and being hot & thirsty started running right into it. As they splashed, the brown washed off. Pretty soon, the lake started to dry up. By the time the last of the brown people got to it, there was only enough water for them to wet the soles of their feet & the palms of the hands, which is why people who are brown today have lighter palms/soles of feet. She showed me love and human kindness that transcended the obvious differences, and taught me some of my life's most valuable messages.

Having had this experience, I can see the dilemna faced by many Black young people in urban settings today. How easy is it to excel in schools infested by drugs, rats, & roaches? Who would pay for higher education of a young person whose family has lived in poverty for generations? Get a scholarship maybe? Flip burgers? The point is that these young people have to work so much harder to acheive the same results that their well-to-do counterparts obtain so easily.

As for me - I choose to judge an individual as just that - an individual. I really don't care what you look like, what your religion is, or what language you speak. If you are a decent human being, then I'm fine sharing the world with you.

 

[jeff black]

As for me - I choose to judge an individual as just that - an individual. I really don't care what you look like, what your religion is, or what language you speak. If you are a decent human being, then I'm fine sharing the world with you.

Well Said Vinny. You summed up my opinion right there.:biggrin1:

 

[Ethyl]

Yes MMZ, I think you've really hit the nail on the head. It all boils down to issues of power, and those with the power are, in essence, the majority. Ultimately, to experience a mass change of attitude and perception, they have to have a "change of heart."



While I can safely conclude that ChimeraTX lived underneath a nice, smooth rock his entire existence, I did respect him (if you really wanna dignify my sentiments with such a term) because he wasn't closeted! At least I knew where I stood with him. Your right MMZ, the worst kind of racism is the one executed covertly. You're never really getting anywhere with them.

Yep . . what he said.

 

[Honey_Grrrl83]

I definately agree that racism is still a huge problem that we need to address in our society,I grew up in all white areas and went to all white schools and as a result I met many people who had awful,negative things to say about other races,when I was in the sixth grade there was this girl in my class,her name was Nicole and she was the kindest,most sincere girl on earth but noone wanted anything to do with her because she was black,even the little clique I was in made fun of her,as a result I broke away from said little group and became her friend,as a result I was called "N***** lover" and other abusive things,I didn't care though,as a result Nicole and I are still friends.
Even though I live in a supposedly more cosmopolitan area now my boyfriend and I still get the occassional weird look when we are together because he is East Indian and I am white,it doesn't matter that he was born and raised here,but neither one of us cares,we aren't going to let society tell us who we can and can't love,I really don't care what color or race anyone is,if they are a good decent person then that is what should count,sometimes I think the world is still stuck in the Victorian era

 

[Shelby]

I went back through this thread paying special attention to the initial post. It now seems to me that some (but not all) of the minority members are suffering from a persecution complex.

If I'm reading it right you feel overt displays of racism are preferable to none because a white who doesn't show them is a closeted bigot. And if they say they're not it makes them liars and cowards.

And subsequent posters posit that the mere act of questioning the degree of racism that exists makes one a racist.

Hats off Jesse, you win.

I feel like Winston Smith.

 

[B_Stronzo]

Well Damn...

As for me - I choose to judge an individual as just that - an individual. I really don't care what you look like, what your religion is, or what language you speak. If you are a decent human being, then I'm fine sharing the world with you.

The recounting of your story was actual visual Vinny. Thanks for your perspective. I mean it too.

Beyond that this last part I've referenced in my quote from you is precisely how I feel about our species regardless of background.

 

[Lex]

Shelby--Wow, did you make that diagnosis all on your own? Was that with or without your degree in Psychotherapy for Internet KeyStrokes?

I can only speak for me, and I don't feel persecuted. I simply respect people who stand beind their beliefs or words, regardless of whether I agree with them (broken record Lex, I know).

I wonder how many minorities who don't have brown-skinned avatars you just offended by assuming that you can tell who they are all by reading this thread?

*I* think some people (regardless of race) are bigoted and even THEY are not aware of it. It's socialized, you know.

 

[Webster]

I think that it would help for all of us to discuss any incident of discrimination on a case by case basis rather than saving up a life time of unfairness/hatred and then painting everyone with the same brush.

I feel that if all of us had no picture in the avatar/gallery/profile that we would not be having this discussion about LPSG members.

I loved Lex until I thought he became too "heavy handed" as a moderator.
I loved Bronxbombshell until she attacked me on several occasions.

The thing is, I was raised to ignore the obvious differences in people.
And, I don't think that it's unreasonable to expect ALL PEOPLE to give me a chance before you scream racism.

I am not the enemy.

Don't expect the worst from me because you aren't going to get it.

 

[Freddie53]

Well Lex you pointed out one of the new thiings I was going to add.

All the same
I'll state it this way. If we pick 100 people at random using social security card numbers from the computer, there willl be a percentage of that 100 who are assholes, and percent that are sliglyly assholes, then there will be some that are seemingly good, but are always so good, and then there are the saints.

I don't know the percentage, but I would wager that it is about the same foR men, women, rich, poor, black white, Hispanic and all the other minority groups. That would be true for straigh, bi and gay people as well.
Wasn't it Dr. King who said that he had a dream that all people would just people by their character and not by the color of their skin? Today we need to add, culture, religion economic status, gender, sexual orientatoin and a host of other areas to Dr. King's list.


PREJUDICE


There is not a person alive that has not been discriminated against for something. Do that make it right. Not no but HELL NO. But it still is there.

In my case I was the young male teaxcher in an all women's staff at an elementary school. This was not pleasing ot some of the ladies. So after a few days, a sign appeared on the oen and only teacher restroom door that said, 'Ladies only." Pissed me off big time. Long before I retired I was asked to promise to play for the woman who put that sign on the door. She never admitted it. I never approached her about it. And she became one of the best friends I have ever known.

Morale: I can't contorl the behavior of other people. If they want to "shit in their pants' in public, they are the ones who will have diaper rash.

But my behavior I can control. I can see that I don't show any signs of sowing predudice such as racism. And when I do, I can in some way make it OK.

I didn't want a "I'm sorry for the sign. I wanted a change in behavior. I got it.

About thread closings. I know you all want answers. It is a case by caes situation. And sometimes one or two make the decision and sometimes we have several in on it. WE are all volunteers.

I will share that sometimes, perhaps a thread needs to be stopped for a short recess to let feelings cool off so people don't say things they wish they could put back into their mouths. But once on the board and it has been read. It is done. I would suggest maybe a 30 minute break if feelings get way too emotional, maybe an hour. I am thinking out loud here. Don't anyone take this an an official suggestion.

This is your board. If a member wants to continue this thought please start a new thread in ETC. and honor Bronz's request by not startnig a new debate on something that is not in her opening comments.

Vinny, I really respected your comments. The least racist and prejudiced people I have known have been people much like you. They have lived in both worlds and NO one told them about racism and prejudices. In general, these two things are taught. They are not part of our natural nature.

 

[GoneA]

I can only speak for me, and I don't feel persecuted. I simply respect people who stand beind their beliefs or words, regardless of whether I agree with them (broken record Lex, I know).

However Lex, broken record or not, it bears constant repeating. No, I don't not think that all the members of any one particular race are racist. That would be just as stupid as assuming no one in this world is racist.

The word of the day here is (and no Sesame Street jokes, Alex): rationality. Just like we can discern racism among certain individuals, we have to equally be able to tell when people are impartial or non-racist.

 

[madame_zora]

However Lex, broken record or not, it bears constant repeating. No, I don't not think that all the members of any one particular race are racist. That would be just as stupid as assuming no one in this world is racist.

The word of the day here is (and no Sesame Street jokes, Alex): rationality. Just like we can discern racism among certain individuals, we have to equally be able to tell when people are impartial or non-racist.

At the risk of turning this into an ass-kissing contest, rationality is the word of the day.

Not only is no whole group of people racist, or free of it, acknowledging where the balance of power lies is NOT condeming all members of that group of wrongdoing. I never said all white men are bad, hell it was primarily white men who VOTED in the civil rights movements in the 60's. Acknowledging facts is just the first step in making corrections.

I actually have some sympathy for what is being asked of the people who currently do hold the positions of power, more is actually being asked of them. Still, right is right nomatter how hard it is to make ourselves see it. Eventually prejudice will come tumbling down, as any false philosophy must, when the foundation is revealed to be faulty and cracking. How quickly we reveal the flaws in the logic will largely determine how long we'll have to live with it.

 

[b.c.]

I went back through this thread paying special attention to the initial post. It now seems to me that some (but not all) of the minority members are suffering from a persecution complex.

If I'm reading it right you feel overt displays of racism are preferable to none because a white who doesn't show them is a closeted bigot. And if they say they're not it makes them liars and cowards.

And subsequent posters posit that the mere act of questioning the degree of racism that exists makes one a racist.

Hats off Jesse, you win.

I feel like Winston Smith.

Well it doesn't come as any surprise that you would characterize minority members who are astute or aware enough of racism as "suffering from a persecution complex". I would suggest it is perhaps a question of being able to face the facts. Nor has anyone here said that all whites are either "closeted bigots" or "liars and cowards".

More diversion...more shifting of blame.

Not surprising coming from one who wrote a lengthy diatribe about "mooslems" in another topic, or who characterized the people of the gulf south affected by the storm as "mostly lifelong moochers complaining about Uncle Sam (me) not doing enough to take care of their lazy asses." (your exact words). And you keep mentioning Jesse. Why??

At least I can say that (from my observation from what has been said here on this board, in response to this topic, and to others), that the majority of the members here on LPSG seem to be of higher character than that, and have displayed remarkable insight and understanding as to the complexities of the issues. And I for one appreciate that.