We Didn't Give Enough Money! Oral Roberts Died!

nudeyorker

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Jason, in the two most recent threads you have created with a religious thread running through them you have shown yourself to be as closed minded, bigoted and intolerant as those you criticize.
I have written before that I tend to avoid religious threads as much as I avoid the discussion in general as my beliefs are personal and debating my beliefs against those of others shows a general lack of respect for their choices.
I don't like or dislike this man who died, I am completely indifferent to him and his beliefs as I am toward many issues that others go to war over. My own feelings boil down very simply...There are missing puzzle pieces everywhere in life that I don't understand or agree with and they are not my business unless they touch me and impact my life.
I have had two PM's today from people about your two threads wondering what you had hoped to accomplish by creating them. I'm still scratching my head.
 

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and they are not my business unless they touch me and impact my life.

I think that answers the question, at least partly. Oral Roberts' preaching was incredibly bigoted and thus, by promoting intolerance, did have a negative impact on many peoples' lives.
 

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Jason, in the two most recent threads you have created with a religious thread running through them you have shown yourself to be as closed minded, bigoted and intolerant as those you criticize.
Huh?
Definitions of bigoted on the Web:

  • blindly and obstinately attached to some creed or opinion and intolerant toward others; "a bigoted person"; "an outrageously bigoted point of view"
    wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn
  • A bigot is a person who is intolerant of or takes offense to the opinions, lifestyles or identities differing from his or her own, and bigotry is the corresponding attitude or mindset. ...
    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bigoted
  • Being a bigot; biased; strongly prejudiced; forming opinions without just cause
    en.wiktionary.org/wiki/bigoted
  • bigot - one who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; one who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion ...
    en.wiktionary.org/wiki/bigot
I fail to see how anything in Jason's post exhibits any of these traits. Being unbigoted does not mean thinking well of everybody or refraining from criticism of religious figures who may be regarded by some as sacred animals.
 

nudeyorker

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I think that answers the question, at least partly. Oral Roberts' preaching was incredibly bigoted and thus, by promoting intolerance, did have a negative impact on many peoples' lives.

Yes but so do so many others in so many other ways than just being anti-gay. At some point you just have to say "You go to your church and I'll go to mine." and get on with your life.
 

nudeyorker

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Huh?
I fail to see how anything in Jason's post exhibits any of these traits. Being unbigoted does not mean thinking well of everybody or refraining from criticism of religious figures who may be regarded by some as sacred animals.

Thanks for the links. I have a Juris Doctorate form any ivy league school, I'm well aware of the definition of a bigot.
 

Northland

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No. "Let it go," is not what the man deserves. He chose to lead a public life in the spotlight, he chose to spew his hatred in the guise of love all over the airwaves and via the brainwashing of young people through a university he founded. He used his charisma and talent for organizing to do things I think Jesus would literally have cried over. He gave us no quarter in his 70+ years of preaching, why should we do the same for him? He was a reprehensible person who continually used the power of media to give himself a public forum to preach hatred, intolerance, and beg for money under the alleged threat of death by God (can you imagine someone saying, "God will kill me if you don't send me money??") and somehow a person who does that is deserving of some modicum of respect? Oral Roberts earned no respect from me in life so I feel no need to show him any in death. Were I a Christian I would be mortified at what Roberts has done to the gospel of Jesus. That I am gay gives me more than enough reason to be delighted that he's finally silenced though I'm certain he'll be around in re-runs long after I'm gone.
Jason, why are you investing so much energy in what can all be seen as unmitigated hate. I am aware that Roberts was not a nice man and spoke a doctrine which often times was filled with words which were against humanity. The sad truth is that he believed the things he said and felt he had to proceed in the way that he did. You rail against his hatred; yet, your own is no better- hate is hate no matter what reason you choose to take for abusing it.

In my post, I indicated that he gave a sense of peace and a form of guidance to an Aunt of mine. I also indicated that she did not favor his stance towards homosexuality. I don't believe she cared much for the man, as much as the strength she found from his positive teachings-which he did have. She was homebound and could not go out and get to a church, so, she took what was available and went forward spirtitually. I have a feeling she was not alone in that. There are those who did the buffet option with what he said. They took the parts which they could accept, and received a sense of peace through it. They saw where he preached against various things and people and realized that was not something which they felt or believed that their Lord Jesus Christ, would have endorsed. This is the same as happens in many religious institutions- people find a sense of peace, they find a guidance for their living; but, they also see where the institution has wandered from the path spoken of in the book they (institution leaders/church elders) quote from and don't practice the discrimination.

The selecting aspect is not that far removed from what I mentioned in a post the other day with regard to Buddhism. Buddhism has several sects/schools and what you find in one may be far less pronounced in another- perhaps to the point of total elimination. Selecting goes on in many religious institutions, people can tell good from bad, if they can't it's more often than not, a few chipped edges in their brain which fail to allow reason and common sense to pass through.

Additionally, I gave the section of an old post from prepstudinsc (which I've further reduced here):

"To only focus on the negative at a time of loss is immature and petty."

Take what he did and said, and focus your energy in a positive manner towards an end of letting people know just how unjust and decidedly bigoted many of Roberts' ideas and statements were. You have the ability to be a better man than Roberts by not going down the road of anger and hate.


I sense you won't let go of your hatred, as many others won't, because it's better to examine the sty in the eye of another than to remove the log from our own eye (that's a wording of a Biblical quotation from somewhere in the New Testament). In other words, "two wrongs don't make a right".
 

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No. "Let it go," is not what the man deserves. He chose to lead a public life in the spotlight, he chose to spew his hatred in the guise of love all over the airwaves and via the brainwashing of young people through a university he founded. He used his charisma and talent for organizing to do things I think Jesus would literally have cried over. He gave us no quarter in his 70+ years of preaching, why should we do the same for him? He was a reprehensible person who continually used the power of media to give himself a public forum to preach hatred, intolerance, and beg for money under the alleged threat of death by God (can you imagine someone saying, "God will kill me if you don't send me money??") and somehow a person who does that is deserving of some modicum of respect? Oral Roberts earned no respect from me in life so I feel no need to show him any in death. Were I a Christian I would be mortified at what Roberts has done to the gospel of Jesus. That I am gay gives me more than enough reason to be delighted that he's finally silenced though I'm certain he'll be around in re-runs long after I'm gone.

I can't see anything wrong with this eloquent post. Bigotry is discrimation for what a person is. What a person does is fair game.

Anyone who preaches the denial of rights and intolerance of specific groups of people deserves criticism.

The fact that someone of enormous influence, who is able to muster respect by espousing goodness and care and through this is able to use national media to peddle hatred is toxic and deserves the criticism.

If he was a complete neonazi few people would take the poison.
 
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nudeyorker

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Nobody cares what degrees you've got if you can't offer an argument to support your claims.

I think my first post in this dreary thread supports my claims. But clearly it would appear that if I don't agree with you or Jason I'm wrong. Go back and review the meaning of bigot.
 

bigbull29

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No. "Let it go," is not what the man deserves. He chose to lead a public life in the spotlight, he chose to spew his hatred in the guise of love all over the airwaves and via the brainwashing of young people through a university he founded. He used his charisma and talent for organizing to do things I think Jesus would literally have cried over. He gave us no quarter in his 70+ years of preaching, why should we do the same for him? He was a reprehensible person who continually used the power of media to give himself a public forum to preach hatred, intolerance, and beg for money under the alleged threat of death by God (can you imagine someone saying, "God will kill me if you don't send me money??") and somehow a person who does that is deserving of some modicum of respect? Oral Roberts earned no respect from me in life so I feel no need to show him any in death. Were I a Christian I would be mortified at what Roberts has done to the gospel of Jesus. That I am gay gives me more than enough reason to be delighted that he's finally silenced though I'm certain he'll be around in re-runs long after I'm gone.

If sincere, he was most misguided in his beliefs, In fact, I wouldn't even call him a Christian (nor would I call Jerry Falwell one, either). But that's my feeling towards many people who profess to be Christians.
 

jason_els

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Jason, in the two most recent threads you have created with a religious thread running through them you have shown yourself to be as closed minded, bigoted and intolerant as those you criticize.
I have written before that I tend to avoid religious threads as much as I avoid the discussion in general as my beliefs are personal and debating my beliefs against those of others shows a general lack of respect for their choices.
I don't like or dislike this man who died, I am completely indifferent to him and his beliefs as I am toward many issues that others go to war over. My own feelings boil down very simply...There are missing puzzle pieces everywhere in life that I don't understand or agree with and they are not my business unless they touch me and impact my life.
I have had two PM's today from people about your two threads wondering what you had hoped to accomplish by creating them. I'm still scratching my head.

If you mean I am bigoted against those who preach hatred and intolerance, then yeah, I'm, "...close minded, bigoted, and intolerant..." I'm happy to tolerate anyone's personal choice. If someone decides to believe that gays are going to Hell and have no place in their church then goody for them. What I am not going to tolerate is when someone decides that the rest of society has to abide by their moral law. I am aware of what various religious organizations across many faiths have to say about homosexuality, the rights of women, abortion, the teaching of evolution, the practice of pagan religions, prayer in schools, and a host of other controversial issues. As you are a member of the ACLU I'm sure you do too.

The fact is that Mr. Roberts has impacted your life by using his pulpit to influence the minds of his followers to urge them to fight against the very things which you, as an ACLU member, fight for. He and his ilk are the very font of intolerance and bigotry. I have never protested a church, never tried to force other people to be gay, never tried to legislate against the rights of straight people, never lobbied to have religious teachings taught under the guise of science in schools, never discriminated against the legal rights of women, and believe that pagans have a complete and free right to worship as they wish. I have not even said, because I do not believe it, that Roberts doesn't have a right to say what he did no matter how wrong I find it. I have even stated that it's important to criticize specifically, not broadly, lest we offend those who are not involved in bigotry. How is that, "close minded, bigoted, and intolerant?"

I haven't received any PMs about this post and don't know why you have. I hope that if people have questions or problems about it they would contact me directly.

I think that answers the question, at least partly. Oral Roberts' preaching was incredibly bigoted and thus, by promoting intolerance, did have a negative impact on many peoples' lives.

Yes but so do so many others in so many other ways than just being anti-gay. At some point you just have to say "You go to your church and I'll go to mine." and get on with your life.

And if he left it in church then I wouldn't have a problem with it. When you go out in public and use your religious position to effect the politics of the people outside the church then you open yourself and your views to free and public debate because you're seeking to influence those outside of your church. There is no free pass once you leave the religious realm and enter the political realm of secular society because that means these people are using their religion to influence OUR lives: those of everyone outside of the church. As soon as that happens then we have every right to speak and act against those policies with which we disagree. I'm surprised you don't see that.
 
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nudeyorker

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I see more than you think I see Jason. I am not agreeing or disagreeing with you but merely the manner and the agenda in which you and Mr. Robert's stand on your soap box and preach are very alike.
 

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When I was 16, my grandmother 'forced' me to read a book called, if I recall correctly, The Missing Dimension of Sex (or possibly The 6th Dimension of Sex) by Oral Roberts. I dutifully read it and it told me that masturbation was wrong and it caused permanent "disorientation." It told me that homosexuality was wrong and that homosexuals deserved less rights, including the right to go to heaven

After I read it, I threw it into the garbage.
 
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jason_els

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I see more than you think I see Jason. I am not agreeing or disagreeing with you but merely the manner and the agenda in which you and Mr. Robert's stand on your soap box and preach are very alike.

Repeat that when I can bilk millions of dollars out of people by telling them to deny rights to others for the sake of God's love.
 

nudeyorker

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Jason I'm jumping off this thread because it's taking a drunken gait down crazy lane. Why can't you just let some old fucked up crazy man die? When you get off your ass an actually do something to support your indignation of how unfair everything is in the world and do something to change it I'll be in the front row cheering you.
 

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When I was 16, my grandmother 'forced' me to read a book called, if I recall correctly, The Missing Dimension of Sex (or possibly The 6th Dimension of Sex) by Oral Roberts. I dutifully read it and it told me that masturbation was wrong and it caused permanent "disorientation." It told me that homosexuality was wrong and that homosexuals deserved less rights, including the right to go to heaven

After I read it, I threw it into the garbage.
Disorientation? That explains my walking around in circles all these years.

What chaps my ass is that people like Oral Roberts are the ones who claim to value human life. We are all equal in God's eyes. Our basic rights are the same for each of us. It is impossible for any of us to rise above or sink below the level of human being.
 

behrstar

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Jason I'm jumping off this thread because it's taking a drunken gait down crazy lane. Why can't you just let some old fucked up crazy man die? When you get off your ass an actually do something to support your indignation of how unfair everything is in the world and do something to change it I'll be in the front row cheering you.

Because said "Old fucked up crazy man" was a public figure who manipulated people through religion and spread lies and hatred. Oh, sure, he made some people feel good too, and they can elevate him in death all they want, praise Jesus!

I will celebrate the death of Roberts, just as I was glad to see Falwell die. maybe they will do no more harm.
 
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When I was 16, my grandmother 'forced' me to read a book called, if I recall correctly, The Missing Dimension of Sex (or possibly The 6th Dimension of Sex) by Oral Roberts. I dutifully read it and it told me that masturbation was wrong and it caused permanent "disorientation." It told me that homosexuality was wrong and that homosexuals deserved less rights, including the right to go to heaven

After I read it, I threw it into the garbage.


I would have burned it. LOL :cool: