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Discussion in 'Politics' started by superbot, Dec 9, 2011.
...for allowing one of the EU's biggest contributers to have it's say.Bravo!!
Just posted this in the other thread, and I'll say it again here:
It seems that the Cameron was expected to sign up to harmonised fiscal policies for Britain, not just the EZ17 - which was never on the agenda anyway.
Seems odd that a summit to save the euro has required more loss of sovereignty from almost all EU members, yet provided very little progress in solving the debt or growth problems. Admittedly, there'll be closer economic integration among the 17 (and the others) - but I'm still unsure as to why Britain was expected to sign upto this in the first place, since we're not even part of the Euro crisis. Will be interesting to see what the Czechs and Swedes do.
It's also annoying that many Europeans are blaming us for trying to scuttle the EU, when we're doing no such thing. We're all in favour of new measures for closer harmonisation among the Eurozone, we're also in favour of rescuing the Euro. We are not trying to stop the 17 moving forwards - we just don't want to be a part of that aspect ourselves. So what's the problem?
Try focusing on Europe's own responsibility for their sovereign debt crisis, and stop blaming the UK. Also, address the need for the ECB to act as lender of last resort, issue eurobonds, and have the ECB intervene to help the struggling nations. None of these show any sign of happening as yet - apart from a meagre .25% cut in interest rates which is hardly going to solve everything.
This seems almost unbelievable.
Are you sure of this, joll?
The UK would have the loss of sovereignty that goes with being an EZ member, without the benefits, small as they now seem.
It was all fairly predictable,the response from Europe, about us being bad Europeans.As you say the crisis facing the Euro isn't even our problem despite the UK contributing (financially) to its on going debacle.
The French and Germans are being just about as predictable as only they can be,cosying up to one another in self interest.Christ, they spent the better part of the 20th century doing just that, only to end up throttling each other in two world wars.
Will be interesting to see how events unfold!
Certainly seems like it - altho it's hard trying to piece the info together.
Saving the euro is in our interest, but subjecting ourselves to much closer scrutiny and tax harmonisation (in addition to damaging financial transaction taxes) is not what we had in mind.
well done cameron? Mmmhh dont know... He keeped the british nationalism high and deklared british intrests higher then europes... He got what he want. He didnt had to change the eu contracts. So still every eu desition has to be confirmed by all countries and not by only 80% of all countries... Congrats!
But what is the price?
The ez can make desitions now by their own and the ez will as less care for british intrests as cameron did it at this meeting... Also the ez is 75% of the eu gdp... That means the ez makes now the desitions for the eu and britain has nothing to say anymore...
Why should the ez try to make rules for the eu from now on? We make our own rules and who wanna trade with us has to follow our rules...
So yes well done cameron... Well done for the ez
He didn't declare British interests higher than European ones. He was fully supportive of attempts to shore up the eurozone - specifically in terms of EZ integration (plus other measures the eurozone seems strangely reluctant to enact). We merely stated that we didn't want to be part of further financial integration, which is necessary only for the eurozone.
You'd also do well to remember that the UK is one of Germany's biggest export markets - especially since many ez nations are not able to afford your goods at present.
you will buy our goods no matter if you are in the ez or not... So what?
All i say is that britain lost a lot of its influence and has to do what the ez wants... you lose cause of cameron political power. I never talked about to lose economical power. So why should i worry about our exports to britain? And britain is WAY under 10%... You are not so importent for germany
it wasnt only about financiel integration... The main point for new eu treaties was that not 100% of all countries has to confirm new treaties but "only" 80%. This would make future desitions way more easier... And it was cameron that wants a veto for britain... And this behavior is shit...
Who's to say we wouldn't agree with future ones? It's this particular area we want to stand back from.
And the behaviour is not in the slightest bit 'shit'. It would be foolish of us to sign up to stuff that we don't think is necessary. Integration is essential for the eurozone - but we never hinted we'd be part of it.
sure is it shit... Its not about further integration mainly it was about how the eu makes desitions in the future... For everyone it was okay that only 80% of confirmation is needed... But not for britain... The britains wants a veto when it comes to financial laws... Are you so spezial and better then everyone else that you deserve a veto?
If everyone would act like britain we would have now only 80% that have to confirm but 27 different areas with a veto. Cause every nation has "spezial intrests"
This isnt the way you make good working desitions...
The only thing that britain cares for is to keep the finance market as unregulated as possible but a unregulated finance market destabilase the whole world economy and britain doesnt care...
Yes this behaviour is shit! In the last 100years you learned nothing... This british nationalistic thinking was one reason for the first world war and with this thinking you try to lead the world in the next desaster. But it wount work this time... Now its an united europe that stands against britain and the price of lost political power that britain will have to pay will be huge
Whaaat?! Look in the mirror, dude. And it's never a good idea to involve the world wars in debates such as this.
Dude - it's a treaty about financial measures to save the euro and to stop the crisis happening again. We just decided to stay out of it, as it wasn't appropriate for us. The whole of Europe isn't 'standing against us'; you're just getting on with eurozone matters by yourselves; well fine.
We're still involved in the other EU institutions and decision-making, thanks.
Sorry Joll, but Perados is right in that most of the financial mess that amplified the problems of the EZ has been imported from the US through the troian horse of the City.
Bravo Angela, I will write her a letter once more!
that is my last name and me mum is from london, maybe i am a relative. *ducks*
Cameron has handled this entire issue like an amateur.
I have already said that he does not impress me. He is vain and stupid. What sort of moron goes into negotiations with a sine qua non demand? It may impress the wretched little tory shits in parliament who make Jason look like a Europhile, but it set him up in these negotiations to look like a fool. And that is precisely what he looks like now.
Merkozy were able to present Cameron as a selfish twat looking to make ground on UK issues on the back of the crisis that faces Europe, which does affect the UK. These negotiations needed everyone to be seen to be working together, Cameron insisted on unilateral concessions before anyone was seen to be working towards the solution. Now the UK is not even at the table.
Next time, David dear boy, take a grown up to the negotiations with you.
I think Cameron is perceived here as a typical baby-face representative of privileged classes that rule the UK while keeping a good portion of the country as CHAVs etc. Democracy "mon cul" (please excuse the vulgarity).
There was no way we could've signed up to it, Drift. Cameron was as keen as anyone find a solution for the euro (which has yet to be found, btw) and to allow the ez17 to integrate fully. But expecting Britain to sign up to much closer fiscal integration ourselves (unless I'm missing something?) was never part of the deal.
Even Clegg admits our 'demands' were reasonable and for the single market, not Britain alone. Read Niall Ferguson in today's Times (if you can bear to buy a Murdoch rag. :wink: ).
I disagree Euro. Sure, the banking crisis in the US (and UK) was a big problem and kicked off the whole financial mess of the past few years (altho Germany's banks were in an even worse state than the US', apparently).
However, the position the eurozone now finds itself in, is to a great extent self-inflicted:
The euro was never going to work without a single economic government (which we all know by now, and which was also known when the project was embarked upon), and was in part designed to create this very situation, where closer union was unavoidable in order to keep the euro together - the differing economic conditions of the countries were too divergent to manage without full fiscal union, and large transfers from North to South.
Weighting euro policy in Germany's favour to allow an artificially low exchange rate for German exports, meant there was no way of stopping the economies of Ireland and Greece et al, from overheating (exacerbated by reckless behaviour). So the PIIGS were able to borrow at unacceptably low rates to buy German goods.
Being trapped in the euro meant struggling countries didn't have the flexibility to withstand the storm (by changing interest rates, devaluing, QE, etc). Added to Germany's obsession with low inflation which further stifled growth.
Remains to be seen whether the ECB will, even now, intervene in a way that's necessary and adequate (issuing eurobonds, acting as lender of last resort, further lowering interest rates - altho the last one is probably likely).
I can't understand the non-euro 9 joining in (if indeed they all do) - they're locking themselves into a depressive austerity club, much closer budget scrutiny, loss of sovereignty, with little or nothing to show for it. Cameron could never have signed Britain up to it - a referendum would have been a certainty, as would the ensuing No vote.
All we're doing is following a more Swiss-style model.
PS: Give my love to Ange, when you write to her. :smile:
The EZ is currently struggling with two problems; Government budget deficits and a struggling economy. With the exception of the PIGS the governments budget deficits is more of a political problem than an economic one, and whilst austerity drives to balance the Government budget can have severe effects on the economy, it is not the primary problem.
The primary problem is CDS have crippled economies, and it was US banks trading through the city as the FSA was weaker than it's American Counterpart that caused this crisis in the first place.
The reason Cameron said no (I don't believe the EZ would try to force tighter fiscal policy for Britain when we aren't in the EZ) is because the EZ wanted to introduce a Tobin tax and increase financial regulation throughout the Europe - effecting London. Cameron did not find this acceptable, so he has put the interests of the finacial and political elite above creating a sustainable and balanced economy.
Originally posted by Perados
". . .the ez makes now the desitions for the eu and britain has nothing to say anymore"
Not True. Britain is still a Member of the EU. We still have a voice in any other debate. We simply refused to sign a Treaty. Would that John Major had done the same at Maastrict and Gordon Brown at Lisbon.
joll the official reason for britain to declare austria and with this also germany the war was to "protect" croatia and the right of every people to create their own state... But when you take a closer look you will notice that it was the fear to lose the monopol of indian/east asian goods... Cause germany build together with the osman empire a railway from berlin to the coast of the indian ocean... Pure nationalistic thinking like now...
And yes britain is still a member of the eu... But that doesnt matter anymore. From now on it will look like that the ez makes a desition for them self and offers it then to the eu... If not all eu countries confirm the ez will make it by them self by intergoverment treaties and offers every eu nation to join. With this way we dont need a yes from all eu countries any more... As you see from now on its the ez who makes the rules. And britain doesnt have a voice in the ez... If you wanna trade with the ez you will have to follow our rules... You lost a lot of political power... Now you can desite, join the euro to keep the influence or not. Then you could also leave the eu...
Like cameron sayd. The only british intrests in the eu are to sell british products on the eu market... THATS A VERY SIMPLE AND EGOISTIC THINKING
And again it wasnt just about to find rules for a closer fiscal europe... If britain would have sayd we dont wanna join this, everyone would be fine with that...
But it was also about to change the rules of how the eu makes desitions. Till now only if 100% of all members confirm. It was planed that in future only 80% have to confirm... And britain sayd okay but britain deserves a veto right... Loool???