Well lookee what the Catholics are doin now

[Michael18m]

Originally posted by Dr Rock+Sep 17 2005, 08:03 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Dr Rock &#064; Sep 17 2005, 08:03 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-Michael18m@Sep 17 2005, 06:29 PM
Thats simplistic rubbish, I believe in all aspects to do with such things as the Virgin, the Saints and the after world etc, what I do disagree with is some of the stuff which is modern and in relation to certain issues handed down by the Vactican which is policy that can change, not dogma

then don&#39;t associate yourself with a political body whose policies you don&#39;t agree with&#33; that&#39;s not an issue of simplicity vs complexity; it&#39;s just basic common sense.

If everyone had the idea just to walk away from everything then what sort of world would we live in ?

a far more agreeable and far less annoying one.

[post=344149]Quoted post[/post]​

[/b][/quote]

I don&#39;t associate myself with the politics of the church at all if I as an individual take a stand and say they are wrong. you see the problem lies in this simple fact, it is they in their policy who is anti catholic, its not that I&#39;m getting it wrong.

Catholism teachs to hate the sin but to love the sinner, now they by doing this are anti catholic because if a priest is celabate, how can he sin ?

his sexual preference if he wasn&#39;t a Priest isn&#39;t a issue, after all they ask Gay men not to have sex now and its okay, so its they who are making an arse of themselves and to an extent non Catholics who do not realise what they are telling them is not the teachings of the Church but the opinion of certain people in Rome.

So your point to walk away is wrong, I will continue to tell them they are not following the teachings the say they guard.

If normal working class Catholics don&#39;t, thats how you get a Church that will never evolve.

I also don&#39;t need a lesson in politics, I come from a family that isn&#39;t right wing in the American or European sense, unlike here, you can be left wing and a Catholic.

Also if everyone walks away you get a New Orleans, people can never take enough responsability for good or for helping others, instead of leaving them to die or feel removed from society.

 

[B_DoubleMeatWhopper]

Exactly so. Just as one can be a patriotic American without getting caught up in politics, one can be a devout Catholic without getting caught up in the Church&#39;s politics. And as far as that goes, the politics of the modern Catholic Church is not the web of mediaeval intrigue that people infer from watching period movies. Dr. Rock and warmsunshine have demonstrated time and again that they know nothing about the workings of the Catholic Church and nothing about her dogmata and doctrines, so take their criticisms against that which they don&#39;t understand for what they&#39;re worth. The Church is an institution which will long outlive their grumbling condemnations. I have no intentions of walking away from a spiritual organisation that&#39;s been good to me. I concentrate on the good and do what I can to challenge the bad.

 

[surferboy]

Guess you guys didn&#39;t pick up on the humor of a dude named Cardinal Sin becomming Pope. In all honestly, I&#39;d have loved a Middle Eastern or African Pope.

 

[Michael18m]

Originally posted by surferboy@Sep 17 2005, 09:20 PM
Guess you guys didn&#39;t pick up on the humor of a dude named Cardinal Sin becomming Pope. In all honestly, I&#39;d have loved a Middle Eastern or African Pope.

[post=344170]Quoted post[/post]​

ah okay, was just there was a real one who only died last year. who lead peaceful revolution in his country etc.

 

[Dr Rock]

Originally posted by SUMYUNGUY+Sep 17 2005, 08:18 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SUMYUNGUY &#064; Sep 17 2005, 08:18 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'>Thats the stupidest comment I&#39;ve heard from you yet, and thats really saying alot.

[post=344151]Quoted post[/post]​

[/b]

thanks&#33; it matters&#33; go drink meth and piss on a bonfire&#33;

Originally posted by Michael18m@Sep 17 2005, 08:18 PM
what they are telling them is not the teachings of the Church but the opinion of certain people in Rome.

... who happen to be responsible for the teachings of the church. if you don&#39;t believe the vatican runs the catholic church, who do you think IS running it? god?

<!--QuoteBegin-DoubleMeatWhopper@Sep 17 2005, 08:39 PM
Dr. Rock and warmsunshine have demonstrated time and again that they know nothing about the workings of the Catholic Church and nothing about her dogmata and doctrines[/quote]
... and as I&#39;ve stated time and again, I don&#39;t NEED to. I know enough from where I AM standing to realize that nothing I DON&#39;T know about the church could mitigate or excuse it.

The Church is an institution which will long outlive their grumbling condemnations.

[post=344155]Quoted post[/post]​

oh, now that&#39;s an unfeasibly absolute statement to make. you know what they say about tempting fate

 

[Michael18m]

what they are telling them is not the teachings of the Church but the opinion of certain people in Rome.

... who happen to be responsible for the teachings of the church. if you don&#39;t believe the vatican runs the catholic church, who do you think IS running it? god?

[post=344178]Quoted post[/post]​

[/quote]

Your obviously only reading what you want, the catholic teachings on this is clear, its their interpretation that is wrong, now the people who are putting these measures into places did not come up with these laws considering much of it was done in 1969 and their only 2 cardinals jpii didn&#39;t appoint.

So I&#39;ll say it yet again, what they are wanting to do does not tie in with what Catholics are taught in regards to homosexuality, just because a cardinal writes a paper or offers a opinion it does not make it part of the "laws" of the Catholic church.

You said you dont need to know, when you obviously do when you have commented on a thread were 2 practicing catholics can tell you this new policy is out of line with teachings of the church, its just starting to make you look a bit daft when your just coming across as a bigot to be honest we has his own agenda.

 

[Dr Rock]

of course I have my "own agenda"; everyone does. and I make no secret or denial about the fact that I have no comprehension or understanding of organized religion or why anyone would ever want to subscribe to one. I just can&#39;t see in this instance what makes one pope or cardinal any more or less valid in their "interpretation" of the church&#39;s tenets than the next one. it seems to me that people who identify as catholics but dissent from the policies of their own supposed leaders are just trying to have the whole thing both ways.

 

[jonb]

Any organization will have corruption. The difficulty is that the Vatican hasn&#39;t realized just how to sniff out pedophiles.

One important reason this tactic won&#39;t work is, heterosexuals are more likely to molest children of either sex. Pedophiles who prefer boys over girls are usually only attracted to children, and usually only boys at that.

Heterosexual pedophiles also target younger children, which is probably worse on the kids.

 

[B_DoubleMeatWhopper]

Originally posted by Dr Rock+Sep 17 2005, 04:42 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Dr Rock &#064; Sep 17 2005, 04:42 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-DoubleMeatWhopper@Sep 17 2005, 08:39 PM
Dr. Rock and warmsunshine have demonstrated time and again that they know nothing about the workings of the Catholic Church and nothing about her dogmata and doctrines

... and as I&#39;ve stated time and again, I don&#39;t NEED to. I know enough from where I AM standing to realize that nothing I DON&#39;T know about the church could mitigate or excuse it.
[/b][/quote]

"I don&#39;t like it&#33; It&#39;s not good&#33; I don&#39;t know anything about what it is or what it does or why, but I know it&#39;s bad so I don&#39;t like it&#33;"

It&#39;s kind of hard to claim you don&#39;t like the taste of something you&#39;ve never even sampled.

 

[Dr Rock]

the reason I don&#39;t like it is because it&#39;s only too obvious what it is, what it does, and why.

 

[B_DoubleMeatWhopper]

Originally posted by Dr Rock@Sep 17 2005, 11:17 PM
the reason I don&#39;t like it is because it&#39;s only too obvious what it is, what it does, and why.

[post=344264]Quoted post[/post]​

Apparently not, since you obviously don&#39;t know anything about it beyond rumour.

 

[Freddie53]

Originally posted by DoubleMeatWhopper+Sep 17 2005, 11:20 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DoubleMeatWhopper &#064; Sep 17 2005, 11:20 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-Dr Rock@Sep 17 2005, 11:17 PM
the reason I don&#39;t like it is because it&#39;s only too obvious what it is, what it does, and why.

[post=344264]Quoted post[/post]​

Apparently not, since you obviously don&#39;t know anything about it beyond rumour.

[post=344265]Quoted post[/post]​

[/b][/quote]
Christianity is an organized religion. It is made up of people. Any organization with people involved is going to have some wrong interpretations, some fake people who are involved for the wrong reasons and greed, and sometime corruption. But let&#39;s look at the overarching effect of Christianity on the world compared to the other religions.

It is in the Christian dominated societies where women have rights, people have freedoms, and generally there is economic properity compared to the rest of the world. Sure there are exceptions. But that is generally true. The countries that have been officially atheists have had practically no personal freedoms and many have been tortured and killed. The Muslim world has a horrible track record when it comes to the rights of women. How long would a gay guy or lesbian last in most fundamental Muslim countries?

In many ways Buddhists have a good track record in personal rights and that is good. And I know that there are some good Muslims as well as Jews.

This is about Catholicism. Catholicism is a branch of Christianity. It is the main trunk from which all the mainline Protestant denominations trace their lineage to. I consider Jacinto to be a Christian brother even though we have never met. He knows Jesus and I know Jesus. That makes us brothers in the eyes of God.

Do I agree with every thing the Catholic Church does and every position of the Catholic Church? No. Neither do I agree with every thing the United Methodist Church does and every position it takes. I work in a Methodist Church and am happy there. The Catholic Church in mh town has all the musicians they need right now.

But I find a certain calm in every Catholic Church I have been in. And every priest, monk or nun I have personally met has been very kind and very modest and so sincere. I know I haven&#39;t met all of them, not in a church with over one billion members, but I can only go on who and what I have seen.

Ask yourself. Is the world today better off or worse off because of Christianity, particularly the Roman Catholic Church. The answer is quite stunning in those early years. Without the orgnization and structure of the Catholic Church, nearly every thing we know about ancient Greece and Rome would have been lost. And without the leadership of the Catholic Church for its first thousand years of existance, it, the Roman Catholic Church was the stabilizing force in Europe and much of the time the only organization keeping order.

Without the Roman Catholic Church and later the Protestant Churches that grew out of it, Europe very well, might not have ever reached the level of civilization and prosperity that Europe and also America enjoy.

All of Western Civilization owes a debt of gratitute to the almost 2000 year history of the Roman Catholic Church. And without the Roman Catholic Church, Christianity in any form probably would not have survived and prospered in Europe. So those of us that aren&#39;t members of the Roman Catholic Church need to remember that without the Catholic Church we wouldn&#39;t have a church either.

As for me I believe in "the apostolic and holy catholic church." It transcends earthly organizations. All Christians are members on one church spiritually. The word apostolic means going back to the apostles and the word catholic means universal. If you believe in the Apostles&#39; Creed and the Nicene Creed, then you are basically catholic with a small c. The Roman Church is simply the the western root of all churches that affirm those creeds. The Orthodox Church is the eastern root of the Christian faith.

As for Jacinto, he appears to be a wonderful person, outstanding teacher and has a wonderful sense of life and his relationship to God. And Jacinto appears to be more than willing to engage in dialogue with others.

Dr. Rock, I&#39;m afraid that you quite often aren&#39;t willing to even listen to the other side. Engaging in dialogue with someone that you don&#39;t presently agree with seems to be a foreign concept to you. That is sad. You may be 100 percent right about everything. I&#39;m willing to concede that is possible I might be wrong. I have faith, which is believing in something in which you can&#39;t see, that the God I worship which is the same God that Jacinto worships is in fact real and when he is finished with his creation sometime in the future, everything will be perfect and all imperfections will be made whole.

I also believe in a merciful God who loves all his children including those who aren&#39;t Christians. I passioinately believe all that means Buddhists, Jews, Mustlims, non believers, and Christians and all of human kind are invited into God&#39;s house which Christians refer to as heaven. I don&#39;t know about those who tell God they don&#39;t want to enter the pearly gates. I jsut know that EVERYONE is invited and none are turned away who wish to live with Father God in heaven.

There has been much bashing of Catholics lately. All of you who are Roman Catholic I consider you brothers and sisters in the body and church of God. May the "little problems" that concern some of you go away and the church stay on its historic path that leads to glory in heaven.

 

[Dr Rock]

Originally posted by DoubleMeatWhopper+Sep 18 2005, 04:20 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DoubleMeatWhopper &#064; Sep 18 2005, 04:20 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-Dr Rock@Sep 17 2005, 11:17 PM
the reason I don&#39;t like it is because it&#39;s only too obvious what it is, what it does, and why.

[post=344264]Quoted post[/post]​

Apparently not, since you obviously don&#39;t know anything about it beyond rumour.

[post=344265]Quoted post[/post]​

[/b][/quote]
you seem to be disregarding observation. I don&#39;t need to know about the internal structures and politics of the catholic church to see that is wrong, any more than I need to contract full-blown smallpox to know that it&#39;s fatal.

 

[madame_zora]

It is impossible for edicts that come down from the highest position NOT to taint the movement, in any given situation. Regardless of any personal opinion I may have, I was dismayed to see THIS particular man appointed Pope, because I felt he would take the movement of Catholicism backward rather than forward, and it seems to be the case. No doubt there are plenty of practising Catholics who do not support this move, but I doubt they will publicly slam him for doing it, which is a shame. He was supposed to be a lame-duck Pope, I wish he would just sit down and shut up.

 

[Michael18m]

Originally posted by Dr Rock+Sep 18 2005, 01:35 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Dr Rock &#064; Sep 18 2005, 01:35 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'>

Originally posted by DoubleMeatWhopper@Sep 18 2005, 04:20 AM
<!--QuoteBegin-Dr Rock

@Sep 17 2005, 11:17 PM
the reason I don&#39;t like it is because it&#39;s only too obvious what it is, what it does, and why.

[post=344264]Quoted post[/post]​

Apparently not, since you obviously don&#39;t know anything about it beyond rumour.

[post=344265]Quoted post[/post]​

you seem to be disregarding observation. I don&#39;t need to know about the internal structures and politics of the catholic church to see that is wrong, any more than I need to contract full-blown smallpox to know that it&#39;s fatal.

[post=344335]Quoted post[/post]​

[/b][/quote]

you do need to know when something is the actual teachings of the church and when its the actions of a group within catholism who have voice due to who is Pope, this is very much the later, and even the Pope isn&#39;t daft enough to make this Papal law which tells you everything, they want to do this by the side door.

This is not what the Church teaches in relation to homsexuality so its very easy for Catholics like myself to voice our dismay at how certain people including this Pope are behaving in relation to this issue. This is not a canon law or Catholic dogma, this is stupid and offensive idea that causes anger, and I disagree Madame_Zora, its actually actions like this that make people voice their opinion, unfortunatly it will not be given the press attention when people do so, but at a local level I&#39;m sure, I and alot of people will tell their priest how they feel about this and alot of them will feel the same way.

 

[D_Barbi_Queue]

Originally posted by KinkGuy@Sep 16 2005, 01:23 AM
Didn&#39;t you know?
ALL homo&#39;s are pedophiles.
Case closed.

[post=343699]Quoted post[/post]​

THAT&#39;s the thing that pisses me off about this. Not all homosexuals are pedophiles and not all pedophiles are homosexual. Why do some people have a single tracked mind when it comes to this? One of my good friends just had a brother that came out of the closet. Now her husband is leary of having that brother watch their kids when he had no problem with it before.

 

[Michael18m]

Originally posted by TexAssgirl+Sep 18 2005, 08:54 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TexAssgirl &#064; Sep 18 2005, 08:54 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-KinkGuy@Sep 16 2005, 01:23 AM
Didn&#39;t you know? 
ALL homo&#39;s are pedophiles. 
Case closed.

[post=343699]Quoted post[/post]​

THAT&#39;s the thing that pisses me off about this. Not all homosexuals are pedophiles and not all pedophiles are homosexual. Why do some people have a single tracked mind when it comes to this? One of my good friends just had a brother that came out of the closet. Now her husband is leary of having that brother watch their kids when he had no problem with it before.

[post=344416]Quoted post[/post]​

[/b][/quote]

Sounds terrible to say it, but many people are simply thicko&#39;s and tend to believe nonsense of any sort about other humans, instead of engaging their brains.

 

[KinkGuy]

Originally posted by TexAssgirl@Sep 18 2005, 02:54 PM
[One of my good friends just had a brother that came out of the closet.  Now her husband is leary of having that brother watch their kids when he had no problem with it before.

[post=344416]Quoted post[/post]​

Welcome to politically based christianity in America, circa 2005. Or should that read "christian based politics?"



THAT should get me flamed, banned or killed.

 

[Dr Rock]

Originally posted by Michael18m@Sep 18 2005, 08:24 PM
you do need to know when something is the actual teachings of the church and when its the actions of a group within catholism who have voice due to who is Pope

?? so the pope doesn&#39;t represent the catholic church now? if catholics don&#39;t believe what the pope says, why don&#39;t they get rid of him? you&#39;re arguing in circles&#33;

 

[D_Barbi_Queue]

And why doesn&#39;t England get rid of the queen if she doesn&#39;t rule the land or make the laws?

Edit: I DO realize that the Pope has more say so in the Catholic religion than the Queen does over England, but my point was that not every grand position makes 100% sense.