We're all doomed, we're going to die.

Elmer Gantry

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Firstly, let me say that I am not trying to dig my head into the sand and say nothings happening because something obviously is.

The question is, what?

The NASA article itself shows that they only have hard data (sattelite photography) on the last 30 years. Is it a cyclic thing? Ever heard of a hundred year storm?

If what I have been told by climatoligists for the last couple of years is true, I should be wading to work by now. Instead, the same stretch of coastline I have lived on for the last 35 years is the same as it is in the pics of us on the beach as kids. The tide mark is in pretty much the same spot as ever.

My point is, I find it disappointing that humans have to have the tripe scared out of them to stop being selfish and destructive (and even then it only works on 30 odd percent of the population).
 

Guy-jin

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In other words scientists know what's going on to the point where they can say with a large degree of certainty we're warming the Earth by emitting huge amounts of CO2. The only controversy left in the science world (apart from the hacks) is what the effects on things like the weather will be, how fast it will happen and who it will impact worst.

And ironically, in spite of what a lot of people seem to believe, scientists have actually been exceptionally conservative in their predictions, so much so that their predictions of the consequences of global warming to this point have been drastically underestimated.

Firstly, let me say that I am not trying to dig my head into the sand and say nothings happening because something obviously is.

The question is, what?

The NASA article itself shows that they only have hard data (sattelite photography) on the last 30 years. Is it a cyclic thing? Ever heard of a hundred year storm?

Actually, the evidence says quite clearly that it's not a natural result of a cycle. Check the articles I linked, and keep in mind they're just a couple I had on hand, and a small portion of a vast library of evidence showing that the warming and CO2 increases are dramatically higher than anything in history. Again, I think it's being very naive to think it's a coincidence that these changes coincide with humanity's population increase and industrialization.

If what I have been told by climatoligists for the last couple of years is true, I should be wading to work by now. Instead, the same stretch of coastline I have lived on for the last 35 years is the same as it is in the pics of us on the beach as kids. The tide mark is in pretty much the same spot as ever.
Climatologists have been drastically underestimating how severely global warming would affect the planet. The ice is melting far faster than they predicted, for example.

Also, the tide mark is not in the same spot as ever, and that's before
land-based ice has really started melting to a great degree, which is what actually causes rising sea levels. Of course, ice in the water itself doesn't cause the sea level to rise when it melts, but it does brace the land-based ice, and once it's gone, that will most assuredly slip into the ocean raise the sea levels. Oh, and that has happened before in history... and it initiated an almost instantaneous ice age in Europe when it did.

Honestly, I just don't see doubting it as acceptable at this point.



And the people who brought up Pascal's Wager are dead on (but for the fact that we know for a certainty that global warming is being caused by humans, of course). Even if this warming trend weren't due to humanity (and it is, beyond a shadow of a doubt) the consequences of doing something to prevent in that case fall far short of the consequences of doing nothing if we are causing it (which we are, by the way).
 

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Rubi, please! Saying things like that encourages people to throw up their hands and do nothing! Guy-jin's point is not that we are doomed but that we can, should, and (I believe) eventually will DO something about it.
 

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Yes, we get too complacent without adversity, but that DOES mean we must rise to the challenge.

And "doomed" I suppose could refer to the fact that some number of years from now each and every one of us will die. However, I'd prefer to avoid leaving the kind of legacy that means NO one else gets to live either.
 

eaglespga88

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JPL.NASA.GOV: News Releases

^more from NASA

And, the founder of the weather channel's argument below. (I side with him, hes the real expert with no political agenda)

" COMMENTS ABOUT GLOBAL WARMING

By John Coleman

jcoleman@kusi.com

it is the greatest scam in history. I am amazed, appalled and highly offended by it. Global Warming; It is a SCAM.

Some dastardly scientists with environmental and political motives manipulated long term scientific data back in the late 1990's to create an allusion of rapid global warming. Other scientists of the same environmental wacko type jumped into the circle to support and broaden the "research" to further enhance the totally slanted, bogus global warming claims. Their friends in government steered huge research grants their way to keep the movement going. Soon they claimed to be a consensus.

Environmental extremist, notable politicians among them then teamed up with movie, media and other liberal, environmentalist journalists to create this wild "scientific" scenario of the civilization threatening environmental consequences from Global Warming unless we adhere to their radical agenda.

Now their ridicules manipulated science has been accepted as fact and become a cornerstone issue for CNN, CBS, NBC, the Democratic Political Party, the Governor of California, school teachers and, in many cases, well informed but very gullible environmental conscientious citizens. Only one reporter at ABC has been allowed to counter the Global Warming frenzy with one 15 minutes documentary segment.

I do not oppose environmentalism. I do not oppose the political positions of either party.

However, Global Warming, i.e. Climate Change, is not about environmentalism or politics. It is not a religion. It is not something you "believe in." It is science; the science of meteorology. This is my field of life-long expertise. And I am telling you Global Warming is a nonevent, a manufactured crisis and a total scam. I say this knowing you probably won't believe me, a mere TV weatherman, challenging a Nobel Prize, Academy Award and Emmy Award winning former Vice President of United States. So be it.

I suspect you might like to say to me, "John, look the research that supports the case for global warming was done by research scientists; people with PH D's in Meteorology. They are employed by major universities and important research institutions. Their work has been reviewed by other scientists with PH D's. They have to know a lot more about it than you do. Come on, John, get with it. The experts say our pollution has created an strong and increasing greenhouse effect and a rapid, out of control global warming is underway that will sky rocket temperatures, destroy agriculture, melt the ice caps, flood the coastlines and end life as we know it. How can you dissent from this crisis? You must be a bit nutty.

Allow me, please, to explain how I think this all came about. Our universities have become somewhat isolated from the rest of us. There is a culture and attitudes and values and pressures on campus that are very different. I know this group well. My father and my older brother were both PHD-University types. I was raised in the university culture. Any person who spends a decade at a university obtaining a PHD in Meteorology and become a research scientist, more likely than not, becomes a part of that single minded culture. They all look askance at the rest of us, certain of their superiority. They respect government and disrespect business, particularly big business. They are environmentalists above all else.

And, there is something else. These scientists know that if they do research and results are in no way alarming, their research will gather dust on the shelf and their research careers will languish. But if they do research that sounds alarms, they will become well known and respected and receive scholarly awards and, very importantly, more research dollars will come flooding their way.

So when these researchers did climate change studies in the late 90's they were eager to produce findings that would be important and be widely noticed and trigger more research funding. It was easy for them to manipulate the data to come up with the results they wanted to make headlines and at the same time drive their environmental agendas. Then their like minded PHD colleagues reviewed their work and hastened to endorse it without question.

There were a few who didn't fit the mold. They did ask questions and raised objections. They did research with contradictory results. The environmental elitists berated them brushed their studies aside.

I have learned since the Ice Age is coming scare in the 1970's to always be a skeptic about research. In the case of global warming, I didn't accept media accounts. Instead I read dozens of the scientific papers. I have talked with numerous scientists. I have studied. I have thought about it. I know I am correct when I assure you there is no run away climate change. The impact of humans on climate is not catastrophic. Our planet is not in peril. It is all a scam, the result of bad science.

I am not alone in this assessment. There are hundreds of other meteorologists, many of them PH D's, who are as certain as I am that this global warming frenzy is based on bad science and is not valid.

I am incensed by the incredible media glamour, the politically correct silliness and rude dismal of counter arguments by the high priest of Global Warming.

In time, a decade or two, the outrageous scam will be obvious. As the temperature rises, polar ice cap melting, coastal flooding and super storm pattern all fail to occur as predicted everyone will come to realize we have been duped.

The sky is not falling. And, natural cycles and drifts in climate are as much if not more responsible for any climate changes underway.

I strongly believe that the next twenty years are equally as likely to see a cooling trend as they are to see a warming trend. "
 

Guy-jin

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What, precisely, did you think that this article said? You may want to read it again if you think it's supporting the stance that global warming "is a hoax."

And, the founder of the weather channel's argument below. (I side with him, hes the real expert with no political agenda)


This man now works as a broadcast meteorologist on local San Diego TV.

A meteorologist.

He's basing his opinion on something, but it's not on his expertise, which is not climatology. You're free to agree with him, but realize fully that the majority of climatologists do not, and that scientific evidence is contrary to what he claimed it was in his blog article.

Again, Pascal's Wager applies even if you, for some mind-boggling reason, still deny that global warming is caused by humans and has an adverse effect on the planet.

I'm really unclear why such a staggering number of people are in denial over this issue. The writing's on the wall.
 

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Judging from what Eagle has shared above, John Colman seems to have decided to model his tactics after those of a certain blonde whose name I prefer not to utter or type. Additionally, if he wants to be considered credible, one has to presume he'd spend a little more time making sure he'd edited for grammatical errors as well as presenting us with some references to support his position.
 

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Well, fuck me, the United Nations just took over the banks with their socialist agendas and the tin foil hats DO block the socialists from reading our minds! I think the satirists might even have exploded a satire bomb on your doorstep!

Come here, I can show you places effected within our lifetime by global warming. Would you like to see baked salt flats extending for hundreds of miles that didn't exist 20 years ago? How about areas where the sea level is actually rising? Or areas where penguins and seals no longer go because its too hot? Areas where it doesn't rain any more? They all exist within the state I live.

Hell, lets all take a nice sail through the lands north of Canada that used to be ice.

JPL.NASA.GOV: News Releases

^more from NASA

And, the founder of the weather channel's argument below. (I side with him, hes the real expert with no political agenda)

" COMMENTS ABOUT GLOBAL WARMING

By John Coleman

jcoleman@kusi.com

it is the greatest scam in history. I am amazed, appalled and highly offended by it. Global Warming; It is a SCAM.

Some dastardly scientists with environmental and political motives manipulated long term scientific data back in the late 1990's to create an allusion of rapid global warming. Other scientists of the same environmental wacko type jumped into the circle to support and broaden the "research" to further enhance the totally slanted, bogus global warming claims. Their friends in government steered huge research grants their way to keep the movement going. Soon they claimed to be a consensus.

Environmental extremist, notable politicians among them then teamed up with movie, media and other liberal, environmentalist journalists to create this wild "scientific" scenario of the civilization threatening environmental consequences from Global Warming unless we adhere to their radical agenda.

Now their ridicules manipulated science has been accepted as fact and become a cornerstone issue for CNN, CBS, NBC, the Democratic Political Party, the Governor of California, school teachers and, in many cases, well informed but very gullible environmental conscientious citizens. Only one reporter at ABC has been allowed to counter the Global Warming frenzy with one 15 minutes documentary segment.

I do not oppose environmentalism. I do not oppose the political positions of either party.

However, Global Warming, i.e. Climate Change, is not about environmentalism or politics. It is not a religion. It is not something you "believe in." It is science; the science of meteorology. This is my field of life-long expertise. And I am telling you Global Warming is a nonevent, a manufactured crisis and a total scam. I say this knowing you probably won't believe me, a mere TV weatherman, challenging a Nobel Prize, Academy Award and Emmy Award winning former Vice President of United States. So be it.

I suspect you might like to say to me, "John, look the research that supports the case for global warming was done by research scientists; people with PH D's in Meteorology. They are employed by major universities and important research institutions. Their work has been reviewed by other scientists with PH D's. They have to know a lot more about it than you do. Come on, John, get with it. The experts say our pollution has created an strong and increasing greenhouse effect and a rapid, out of control global warming is underway that will sky rocket temperatures, destroy agriculture, melt the ice caps, flood the coastlines and end life as we know it. How can you dissent from this crisis? You must be a bit nutty.

Allow me, please, to explain how I think this all came about. Our universities have become somewhat isolated from the rest of us. There is a culture and attitudes and values and pressures on campus that are very different. I know this group well. My father and my older brother were both PHD-University types. I was raised in the university culture. Any person who spends a decade at a university obtaining a PHD in Meteorology and become a research scientist, more likely than not, becomes a part of that single minded culture. They all look askance at the rest of us, certain of their superiority. They respect government and disrespect business, particularly big business. They are environmentalists above all else.

And, there is something else. These scientists know that if they do research and results are in no way alarming, their research will gather dust on the shelf and their research careers will languish. But if they do research that sounds alarms, they will become well known and respected and receive scholarly awards and, very importantly, more research dollars will come flooding their way.

So when these researchers did climate change studies in the late 90's they were eager to produce findings that would be important and be widely noticed and trigger more research funding. It was easy for them to manipulate the data to come up with the results they wanted to make headlines and at the same time drive their environmental agendas. Then their like minded PHD colleagues reviewed their work and hastened to endorse it without question.

There were a few who didn't fit the mold. They did ask questions and raised objections. They did research with contradictory results. The environmental elitists berated them brushed their studies aside.

I have learned since the Ice Age is coming scare in the 1970's to always be a skeptic about research. In the case of global warming, I didn't accept media accounts. Instead I read dozens of the scientific papers. I have talked with numerous scientists. I have studied. I have thought about it. I know I am correct when I assure you there is no run away climate change. The impact of humans on climate is not catastrophic. Our planet is not in peril. It is all a scam, the result of bad science.

I am not alone in this assessment. There are hundreds of other meteorologists, many of them PH D's, who are as certain as I am that this global warming frenzy is based on bad science and is not valid.

I am incensed by the incredible media glamour, the politically correct silliness and rude dismal of counter arguments by the high priest of Global Warming.

In time, a decade or two, the outrageous scam will be obvious. As the temperature rises, polar ice cap melting, coastal flooding and super storm pattern all fail to occur as predicted everyone will come to realize we have been duped.

The sky is not falling. And, natural cycles and drifts in climate are as much if not more responsible for any climate changes underway.

I strongly believe that the next twenty years are equally as likely to see a cooling trend as they are to see a warming trend. "
 

SpeedoGuy

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However, Global Warming, i.e. Climate Change, is not about environmentalism or politics. It is not a religion. It is not something you "believe in." It is science; the science of meteorology. This is my field of life-long expertise. And I am telling you Global Warming is a nonevent, a manufactured crisis and a total scam. I say this knowing you probably won't believe me, a mere TV weatherman, challenging a Nobel Prize, Academy Award and Emmy Award winning former Vice President of United States. So be it.

er, no.

Meteorology is my also field of life-long employment. 22+ years in the profession.

There's a difference between day-to-day weather forecasting and climate science. They share some common factors but they're not the same science. Experience at one doesn't imply skill and reliability at the other.
 

SteveHd

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What bothers me is so many folks who are 99% sure of a theory that they themselves have little knowledge of. OTOH, many PhD-types have profound doubt. I don't think anyone really knows. I think all of the "experts" are guessing. The honest ones will admit they're guessing.

Experts can be wrong. I remember experts in the mid-70s predicting that the world would run out of petroleum by ~2000. Did someone think to say "oops"?

The politics of "climate change" now has a life of its own, partly due to Al Gore. I can see it reaching a point where the science doesn't matter, only the political agendas. It's not quite there yet but that's how it appears to be going.

In the meantime, I'm tuning it out as much as I can. My condo is a few feet from the high-tide line. If there's a sudden rise, I'll report back.:smile:
 

Elmer Gantry

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Remember "The Population Bomb"?

I was being taught in high school that we were heading for another ice age, complete with ice core evidence and climate modelling. I still have the text books as I found it hilarious that from middle high school to university, the mantra had swapped from cooling to warming.

Anyone checked on the hole in the ozone layer lately?
 

D_Gunther Snotpole

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Anyone checked on the hole in the ozone layer lately?

It seems that there's been an improvement, but why?
Scientists determined that the emission of freons and halons was causing the thinning of the ozone layer.
The world actually took this seriously, achieved the Montreal Protocol in 1987, limiting the use of freons and halons ... and voila, the problem has substantially receded.
This is a case of the scientists getting it right, public policy being appropriately adjusted, and a problem being solved.
It doesn't suggest that we should not listen to the near consensus among scientists on the much larger and more complicated question of what we might do about climate change.
Quite the contrary.
I am struck by the fact that the several reports of the UN's Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) have made relatively conservative ... not alarmist ... predictions of how the Earth will continue to warm up -- and actual events have tended to exceed those cautious predictions.
Things seem to be cascading.
And we are not managing to do much to stem our emissions of carbon.
During the 1990s, our emissions increased by 1.1 percent per year.
Since 2000, they are increasing at three times that rate.
And China and India are just beginning to achieve large numbers of middle class people who will fall in love with the internal combustion engine.
I believe that one degree or another of disaster is looming, even if we completely stop all emissions of carbon tonight at midnight.
But it's far more likely that carbon emissions will continue to increase, even rapidly, for many decades.
 

Elmer Gantry

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Have any of you ever used a CFC based refridgerant before? It was once used to treat football injuries on the spot as well as muscle strain in thoroughbred race horses.

What happens when you release it? Does it rise or fall?
 

SpeedoGuy

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What happens when you release it? Does it rise or fall?

Are you implying the CFCs can't possibly rise because they are used as a cold treatment? Whether they initially rise, fall or remain at nuetral buoyancy is beside the point. CFCs are incredibly long lived when released in the free atmosphere and over time they migrate in weather patterns and disperse all over the globe. When they arrive in the stratosphere they are capable of reacting with ozone molecules thousands of times before dissipating or precipitating out. They are very potent ozone depletion agents.