Were Freud/Kinsey right ?

Discussion in 'New Member Introductions' started by lacsap1, Feb 28, 2004.

  1. lacsap1

    lacsap1 New Member

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    As I noticed several times, there that still some people on LPSG who are sceptic about there sexual feelings;
    like, "I'm straight but like to see big cocks, I'm a bi?"
    When I read ties messages I'm always thinking about the psychoanalysis by Freud, in 1896, to a scientific theory of the human mind and personality, and is a therapeutic method of investigating unconscious mental processes:

    Freud claimed that infants are initially bisexual beings and that all new-born children have the same drives and aims. They are subsequently organized into masculine and feminine dispositions as a result of the constraints of society, most importantly those of reproduction. For Freud, the human personality is the product of the relationship between inner biologically determined drives and urges, and the external constraints of the physical world and society, which in effect is a repression of desires (Strachey, 1973:155). As small children, both sexes have activities broadly organized into oral, anal and phallic phases, and sexuality at this stage is predominantly active. It is only through the intervention of cultural complexes that both boy and girl undergo changes in the aims and activities associated with this phallic phase.

    Forty years after sex researcher Alfred Kinsey told us that the world is not made up of two different kinds of people, gay and straight. Kinsey was not the first or the last to observe that "homosexual" is a label society has invented to stigmatize and control the behavior. He repeatedly condemned the practice of labelling people homosexual. The classification of sexual behavior as heterosexual, or homosexual, is, therefore, unfortunate if it suggests that only different types of persons seek out or accept each kind of sexual activity. There is nothing known in the anatomy or physiology of sexual response and orgasm which distinguishes heterosexual, or homosexual reactions. It would clarify our thinking if the terms could be dropped completely out of our vocabulary.

    37 per cent of the total male population has at least some overt homosexual experience to the point of orgasm between adolescence and old age. This accounts for nearly 2 males out of every 5 that one may meet.

    50 per cent of the males who remain single until age 35 have had overt homosexual experience to the point of orgasm, since the onset of adolescence.

    58 per cent of the males who belong to the group that goes into high school but not beyond, 50 per cent of the grade school level, and 47 per cent of the college level have had homosexual experience to the point of orgasm if they remain single to the age of 35.

    63 per cent of all males never have overt homosexual experience to the point of orgasm after the onset of adolescence.

    50 per cent of all males (approximately) have neither overt nor psychic experience in the homosexual after the onset of adolescence.

    13 per cent of the males (approximately) react erotically to other males without having overt homosexual contacts after the onset of adolescence.

    30 per cent of all males have at least incidental homosexual experience or reactions (i.e., rate 1-6) over at least a three-year period between the ages of 16 and 55. This accounts for one male out of every three in the population who is past the early years of adolescence.

    25 per cent of the male population has more than incidental homosexual experience or reaction (i.e., rates 2-6) for at least three years between the ages of 16 and 55. In terms of averages, one male out of approximately every four has had or will have such distinct and continued homosexual experience.

    18 per cent of the males have at least as much of the homosexual as the heterosexual in their histories (i.e. rate 3-6) for at least three years between the ages of 16 and 55. This is more than one in six of the white male population.

    13 per cent of the population has more of the homosexual than the heterosexual (i.e., rates 4-6) for at least three years between the ages of 16 and 55. This is one in eight of the white male population.

    10 per cent of the males are more or less exclusively homosexual (i.e., rate 5 or 6) for at least three years between the ages of 16 and 55. This is one male in ten in the white population.

    8 per cent of the males are exclusively homosexual (i.e. rate a 6) for at least three years between the ages of 16 and 55. This is one male in every 13.

    4 per cent of the white males are exclusively homosexual throughout their lives, after the onset of adolescence.

    Kinsey felt that the high incidence of homosexual activity among males of high school education was of particular importance. These are the males who most often condemn the homosexual, most often ridicule and express disgust for such activity, and most often punish other males for their homosexuality. And yet, this is the group which has the largest amount of homosexual activity... As a group these males may strenuously deny that their sexual contacts have anything to do with homosexuality; but the full and complete record indicates that many of them have stronger psychic reactions to other males than they care to admit. When they no longer find themselves being paid for such contacts, many of them begin paying other males for the privilege of sexual relations.

    If all persons with any trace of homosexual history, or those who were predominantly homosexual, were eliminated from the population today, there is no reason for believing that the incidence of the homosexual in the next generation would be materially reduced. The homosexual has been a significant part of human sexual activity since the dawn of history, primarily because it is an expression of capacities that are basic in the human animal.

    So please stop this "labelling" !!



    "It may be an academically interesting puzzle as to why we are gay...but it is much more interesting and important to find out why people are homophobic." -Prof. Peter Nardi, GLAAD/LA
     
  2. B_DoubleMeatWhopper

    B_DoubleMeatWhopper New Member

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    I have no desire to eschew labelling. To use the label GAY to refer to myself is a lot more expedient than explaining to someone where I fit on the Kinsey scale. When you get right down to it, if someone refers to himself as a 2, for example, on the Kinsey scale, how is that any less of a label than using the word straight? I'm gay, and I no qualms with bearing that label. If I don't quite fit into someone's preconceptions about what gay means, that doesn't make the label any less valid for me. When I tell someone I'm gay, they get the general gist of what I mean without the need to get into a philosophical discussion about Freud and Kinsey's theories concerning sexuality.
     
  3. lacsap1

    lacsap1 New Member

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    DMW,

    I'm happy to hear that you're completly excepting the way you stand in society concerning sexual orientation.
    Like myself, I believe it's very important be proud of yourself and not be affraid what society may thing about any preference.

    That also the reason I showed the Freud & Kinsey scall, not to label you in the scall but to comfort all of thoose (young) people finding there way around sexual orientation. That it is okay that many of them have stronger psychic reactions to other males than they care to admit. I started my topic by telling that I still feel that several (young) people on LPSG are sceptic about there sexual feelings, like topics "I'm straight but like to see big cocks, I'm a bi?", and more like ties posts.

    So what, I would like to say.

    By showing the scientific scall I hope that people will see that they shouldn't worry to much about being straight-, bi- or homosexual and are just comfortable by any sexual feeling they will have.





    "Only now, especially after the story of my marriage, have I finally begun to understand that there is nothing more fruitless than not wanting to be that which I am by nature." -Tchaikovsky, composer.
     
  4. Imported

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    Javierdude22: [quote author=lacsap1 link=board=meetgreet;num=1078018594;start=0#2 date=02/29/04 at 13:16:37]DMW,

    So what, I would like to say.

    By showing the scientific scall I hope that people will see that they shouldn't worry to much about being straight-, bi- or homosexual and are just comfortable by any sexual feeling they will have.
    [/quote]

    Somebody called me?

    Hm...wel...as a person struggling (probbaly till my dying day) with his sexuality, I can tell you that -So what- doesnt really cut it for most people. People of course are extremely different and come with extremely different kinds of baggage. I have friends who are liberal to the fullest, and who have even more liberal parents. They told their folk they were not very straight and they jumped for joy as if they won the lottery, proudly telling their friends she has a girlfriend now.

    I am happy for her, to the fullest. But she, anda few others are the lucky ones that have supporting parents and surroundings.

    Then there are the people that feel little tie to their surroundings and show them the finger when they disapporove of their way of life. The easy riders so to speak. -Im not seeing them anymore, and I dont care- is what you frequently hear. I dont believe they dont care, but if it makes them a happier person, more power to them.

    Again, I think this is a very small percentile.

    Then there is the enormously large percentile who feel shame, because they do not want to be different. A human trait shared by many others. Society has condemned sexuality in any form for thousand of years, let alone a sexuality that doesnt conform to the majority!

    Then there is a bunch of stereotypes you have to fight yourself through. Hope and see if you can hit them out of the heads of your folks and peers, your relations with them might change if you cannot.

    Lastly, the hopes and dreams of your mom and dad, we are not the only ones having to knock a few heads, they deal as much as their kids with having to -tell- people, and fight stereotypes. That is why oftentimes they react so fiercely, they are just as scared.

    What Im trying to say is, for some, and most people it is a battle. A battle which can take you into depths you had never known before, and change your life and the relationships in it.

    Damn, my internetcafe is closing, maybe later more.

    Jav
     
  5. lacsap1

    lacsap1 New Member

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    Jav, not especially calling you.....

    But before you think about how to come out to your family, what's most important is that you feel a strong sense of acceptance from yourself, about your sexuality and your reasons for coming out. As you begin to acknowledge to yourself that you are lesbian, gay or bisexual, it is very common to experience guilt, shame, doubt and confusion. Centuries of negative social messages, discrimination and violence are not eradicated overnight. Even in a climate where gays, lesbians and other members of the queer community have begun to fight back and demand rights, recognition and protection under the law, social attitudes and belief systems continue to discriminate.

    As you begin to feel the first inklings of Pride and entitlement to be who you are, you can't help feeling that family, friends and the rest of the heterosexual world will see you as different. One of the things we know is that prejudice and discrimination do change over time and it is usually exposure to that which is different that helps to change negative attitudes. When it comes to family members and in particular parents, finding out they have a les/bi/gay child, it is those historically negative ideas about homosexuality that first concern them. Before you tell the world, you need personal time to come to terms with your new selfunderstanding. It's also helpful to have support from others who have gone through this process. Keep in mind there is likely at least one other gay, lesbian or bisexual in your family tree, either from previous generations or who is currently alive.
    Many people who've come out also find that their relationship with their parents eventually improves because of the increased openness and honesty that comes with sharing this knowledge. Many also experience a great sense of relief in knowing that they no longer need to keep their true identity a secret.

    I know it isn't easy but you must be proud and honest about yourself what ever your sexual orientation will be.



    ========================================
    "It is not the homosexual who is perverse, but the society in which he lives." -Rosa Von Praunheim
     
  6. Imported

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    Javierdude22: [quote author=lacsap1 link=board=meetgreet;num=1078018594;start=0#4 date=02/29/04 at 16:04:11]Jav, not especially calling you.....
    [/quote]

    I know...my middle name is sarcasm..



    I know what you mean Pascal, it is s speech any group of people discriminated against can hold. Not meant demeaning btw.

    I guess I was explaining why some kids feel uneasy to get out there with their sexuality. And why such is speech, in itsself very true, is mismatched with reality.
     
  7. Imported

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    oldokie2001: I believe the studies of identical twins clearly show that homosexuality is basically genetic, but there can be environmental influences. However, we can't think of homosexuality as result of a single "gay" gene. Instead it is probably similar to the genetic control of skin color, and I believe there are something like eight genes that account for all the variations from white to black. If there are multiple genes involved in sexuality, we can account for Kensey's classification of sexuality ranging from exclusively hetersexual all the way to exculsively homosexual.
     
  8. B_DoubleMeatWhopper

    B_DoubleMeatWhopper New Member

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    The latest study I heard about suggests that homosexuality is encoded in twelve different genes. Of course, that's just theory for now.
     
  9. Imported

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    quitehairy: As far as I know "homosexuality" is a 19th century European invention (discription).
    A lot of people from other cultures concidder they do not fit in while being font of the same sex.
     
  10. lacsap1

    lacsap1 New Member

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    Correct,

    Before, the word "sodomy" was used, called by a Catholic missionary, now a saint, Father Peter Damien around 1050. By sodomy, he meant masturbation and anal intercourse between men, a sin he condemned as the most perverse of sexual sins in his long letter to the Pope, entitled "the Book of Gomorrah." He emphasized that God designed sex exclusively for procreation and that the enjoyment of the sexual act outside this divine purpose was unnatural and therefore summarily grievously and wickedly sinful."

    The term ’homosexuality’ as it is used and understood today is not applicable to the old Greeks for the reason that, most Greeks were bisexual and erotic love between two adult men, was generally considered "normal". The Greek male was expected not only to marry and raise children, but also to be available for friendship and love with worthy youths, not to the exclusion of marriage but as its necessary complement. lover. A man in the old greece should be attracted both to lovely women and to youths was seen as natural and normal. It was also accepted that some men would lean more towards one, and some towards the other. The Greek ideal of beauty was embodied by the young man.

    The term homosexuality was first coined in 1869 by Karl Maria Kertbeny in an anonymous pamphlet advocating the repeal of Prussia's sodomy laws. It was listed in 1886 in Richard von Krafft-Ebing's detailed study on deviant sexual practices.

    So as researchers like Dr S. Freud and Dr Alfred C. Kinsey stated: Most people have some attraction to either sex, although usually one sex is preferred. Freud and Kinsey and more followers therefore consider only a minority (5-10%) to be fully heterosexual or homosexual. Conversely, only an even smaller minority can be considered "fully" bisexual, if that term is defined as having no preference for one sex over another.

    It's strange to see how the "norm" can change to not "normal" ....


    =======================================
    "Without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible." -Frank Zappa
     
  11. Imported

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    quitehairy: I ment in a lot of cultures one isn't heterosexual, bisexual or homosexual.
     
  12. B_DoubleMeatWhopper

    B_DoubleMeatWhopper New Member

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    [quote author=quitehairy link=board=meetgreet;num=1078018594;start=0#10 date=03/01/04 at 14:37:21]I ment in a lot of cultures one isn't heterosexual, bisexual or homosexual.[/quote]

    The peoples of such cultures may not use those words, but they certainly feel sexual attraction towards others, and the objects of their attraction are male or female (or, in rare instances, hermaphroditic). To say, "Yeah, he's sexually attracted to men only, and all of his relationships have been with other men, and the only sexual encounters he's ever engaged in have all been with other men; but he's not homosexual because his culture doesn't use such a designation..." Sorry, that's not a semantically sound claim. Just because a culture doesn't use specific labels for people's sexuality doesn't mean that such sexualities don't exist among them.
     
  13. jonb

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    Well, technically, sodomy refers to oral or anal intercourse, regardless of the sex of the partners.

    I'm skeptical of the genetic determinist argument about homosexuality, personally. More likely, there would be a degree of genetic and environmental traits. Hormone washes in utero might have an effect, for example. Certainly overpopulation would; Kinsey noted that most homosexual contacts were in urban areas.

    Either way, humans use sex for social purposes as well; during sex, you're imprinted with the image of your partner.
     
  14. Imported

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    ORCABOMBER: I think that maybe the scale could be broadened, I mean, we're attemping to "digitise" (I mean, discretely catergorise) a behaviour which is not described numerically.

    I feel that I'm closer to a 1.5 as the closest analogue, simply because I've been there and not "done that", in fact, the idea makes me puke. I can enjoy the sight, but wont touch.

    Yeah, sex is used for social purposes and I think what we often forget is that sexual behavour is part of our personality as well as our behavour.

    As an extreme example:

    I remind myself to look both ways when crossing the road and there's a nice girl on the other side of the road (or I might get mowed down).

    If I was on the other side of the "spectrum", you might assume I'd do that for guys. BUT would I be arrogant enough to look and stare long enough to be in a situation where I forget to notice the number 15 bus?

    Could you expect a gay "me" to act like a "straight" me or even a "bi" me? of course not. But it's not the sexuality that defines our personality, I believe, it's our personality that helps forge a great deal of our sexuality or at the very least, how we cope with it.
     
  15. Imported

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    quitehairy: [quote author=DoubleMeatWhopper link=board=meetgreet;num=1078018594;start=0#11 date=03/01/04 at 20:17:23]

    Just because a culture doesn't use specific labels for people's sexuality doesn't mean that such sexualities don't exist among them.    [/quote]
    And it doesn't mean such sexualities do exist among them.
    They might use other labels.
     
  16. lacsap1

    lacsap1 New Member

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    Essentially all conservative Christian thinkers who have written or spoken about homosexuality maintain that sexual orientation is not determined by one's genes. Religious conservatives often point to studies of identical twins who were separated at birth and raised independently. If one is gay, then the other twin is found to be gay only about 55% of the time. They reason that: since identical twins have the same genetic structure, then if homosexual orientation were determined by genes, 100% of the other twins would be gay. Thus they conclude that homosexual orientation is not genetic.

    The rejection of a genetic cause of homosexuality by essentially all conservative Christians and some others seem to be based upon a faulty knowledge of the inner workings of genetics. Genes have a property called penetrance, which is a measure of their effectiveness, or power. Consider the gene for Huntington's Disease. It has two alleles (varieties). One is a very rare allele will causes the person to fall victim to the disease. The other, much more common, variety prevents the disease. This particular gene is 100% penetrant. If you were born with the allele that causes the disease, then you are certain to develop the disease later in life. The penetrance of the gene which causes Type 1 (early onset) diabetes is only 30%. So, if one identical twin has the allele that causes diabetes, then the other twin will have the same allele. Both will have a 30% chance of developing the disorder. Both twins will have the identical allele, but it may or may not be triggered by something in the environment, and cause diabetes. Similarly, if one identical twin develops schizophrenia, the other twin has over a 60% chance of also developing the disorder. If one twin develops bipolar affective disorder, the other twin's chances are about 60%.

    One theory that fits the available observations is that the penetrance of the "gay gene(s)" is approximately 67%. That causes half of the males with the gene(s) become gay. "There could be hundreds of millions of straight men walking around with this gay allele but who are straight simply because it didn't penetrate" In the case of the "gay gene(s)" perhaps 10% or more of all males have the allele that causes homosexuality, but in many cases is the allele not "triggered".

    Assuming that the penetrance of the "gay gene" or "gay genes" is 67%, then one would expect that if one fraternal twin was gay that the other would also be gay about 22% of the time. This number also agrees with studies of families with twins.

    Nobody knows what triggers the allele. It might be some event happening in the womb, like an abnormal amount or irregular timing of hormones. It might be some event during early childhood. Either way, it is outside the control of the individual and his family of origin.


    ========================================
    "Many people cling to the idea that homosexuality is a choice, because otherwise the bible would seem illogical. Why would God decree as immoral something that was out of one's control? One couldn't imagine a biblical passage suggesting people are immoral because they are tall or blonde or brown-skinned." -Robert L. Steinbeck
     
  17. jonb

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    Well, DMW and QH, in some parts of the world, it's common for the passive partner to simply put on a dress and be treated as a woman. In fact, this is hard to associate with anything, but we can correlate the attitudes toward the passive partner with attitudes toward women.

    In other parts of the world, there are age differences. Age differences seem to be associated with vitalistic attitudes about semen making boys into men, coupled with some degree of misogyny. Class differences, OTOH, seem to be associated with feudal economics.

    Lesbianism is a whole other can of worms, and hasn't been studied cross-culturally as thoroughly as male homosexuality. It appears that there are fewer heirarchies in lesbianism, the only one remaining being a transgender.

    Of course, most societies see this whole gay/straight thing as only a minor element of human sexuality.
     
  18. Imported

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    ORCABOMBER: Lesbians seem to be treated differently by society anyway, even lesbian paedophiles are treated better, heck, straight ones are in the UK. ???

    Seems that it's always men that have the big deal out of it.

    Lacsap, I'm one of the "don''t believe we're all our genes" and I'm studying genetics. I don't argue against you, just that it's too easy to say "oh, because I have this gene, this is my fate". I tend to use the example of 'Teleporter-phobia'. Teleporters don't exist, so how could a specific set of genes determine a condition that doesn't exist, but may well do in the future?

    I don't like the idea of a "gay" gene, because it makes it sound foreign or something that isn't a part of "straight" people. I don't know the research, to be sure, but I would have thought similar genes or biological processes conrol our sexuality?
     
  19. jonb

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    Similar genes, in that they are in the same positions on the human genome and affected by the same environmental factors. But a genetic cause means that there are differences in the DNA, perhaps as small as nucleotides. At the same time, some heterosexuals may have the gay gene, and some homosexuals may not.

    The debate then would be exactly which evolutionary terms would favor homosexuality; I'd say it falls into the 'altruism' bucket, sacrificing your own evolutionary potential to help the rest of the population. But then again, my ancestors employed transvestites (who married members of the same anatomical sex) as educators and matchmakers, so I might be a bit biased.
     
  20. Imported

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    ORCABOMBER: Good point actually, altough I don't know if there even HAS to be a purpose. I'm one of those people who tends to think "shit happens".
     
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