We're overdue a Mid East thread

stretcher74

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dong20, I'm glad that you mentioned "the Klan". Because there's a big difference between how USA dealt with the KKK and how the Islamic world deals with their radical groups.

As you may know, the FBI heavily infiltrated the KKK and some of the tactics are illegal today. The FBI essentially destroyed KKK. It still exists, but a shell of what it was, and the FBI still watches them. Books have been written about how it was done. Today I'd say most Americans would approve of what the FBI did, perhaps even approve of the now illegal stuff.

Timothy McVeigh is an example of an American terrorist. He built and set off the bomb in Oklahoma City. But he had to face consequences: some medicine known as lethal injection. He got what he deserved. I'd say most Americans would concur.

When I look at the Islamic world and how they're handling their radicals, I see mostly apathy. Particularly from in the public. And that's being polite ... very polite. Someday they may get ballsy enough to go after their own radicals in a big way. Saudi Arabia has started to, but it's only a start. Until the Islamic world goes after their radicals, I will hold a low opinion of them, collectively. By "go after" I mean aggressive official action with majority backing from their public. I don't expect to see that anytime soon.

Imagine a whole society on super-welfare. That's Saudi Arabia. Nobody has earned anything, ever. It's all been handed to them by an accident of birth, geography and politics.They have an air force with F16s but nobody to fly them if they are attacked. When one of the royal princes makes a foray into actively managing and learning investment it makes world headlines. The handouts are handled by the members of the most bloodthirsty of the turn of the century clans (House of Saud) to an ever growing and more ungrateful populace. It's a nation of dependent,savage forever man-children at the heart and soul of what it means to be a muslim. You can go to University in Saudi Arabia and instead of learning about the world or science, you learn about contempt for all who make things or do good in this world and why your profane religion makes you worthy of divine handouts from the hand of the Murder-Rape and plunder god of Mohammed forever.

Cheers !
 

B_big dirigible

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Finest kind. If you feel that way, why chime in?
So how does noticing that it's little more than an animated corpse disqualify me from commenting?
So the entire US population is a crazed rascist mob based on the activities of say the Klan? I know that's not what you meant but it wouldn't be much of a leap for the idiots among us to construe it that way.
You admit to deliberate misunderstanding, and expect me to ... what? I'm not going to reduce my posts to one-syllable words for those lacking central nervous systems.
Either way, even in war it's a non argument, at least until ordnance is able to target, with absolute reliability enemy combatants alone.
Which will never happen. Do you believe that because of that there will be no wars?
Until then, in war the innocent will die alongside the slightly less innocent and it's often almost impossble to tell them apart. After all, it's comparatively seldom that the truly guilty get truly 'hands on'.
Which was exactly what I said.

But note that guilt doesn't generally come into it. Wars are not automatically "war crimes", and if no crime is involved, how would the concept of "guilt" apply?
Assuming of course you even care enough to make the distinction in the first place. Your argument seems to suggest that your see merit in not doing so?
Is there an accusation buried in this incoherence? I can't tell.
Certainly, the Muslims I work with and know as friends don't appear to feel that Sharia law or Pork or doing such terrible things as not hiding oneself from head to toe constitute issues worthy of such actions, or even any action at all. Neither, so far as I'm able to tell, do they pose any immediate threat to national security. Of course neither do I, but naturally that could change.
Neither do the ones I happen to know. But I doubt that any of them are dumb enough to tell me even if I asked, so in reality I don't know what fantasies they harbor. None of our locals went berserk, rioted, or set fires during the hype over the Danish cartoons, either. But that's not evidence that quite a few elsewhere didn't do any such things. I see no good justification for drawing generalizations about the state of Islam worldwide from the behavior of samples of adherents in the US.
The only way to make your argument even remotely plausible is to conclude to that is that everyone is your (potential) enemy, all that's needed is the right trigger. I do think there's some truth in that, and there is precedent but only under the most unusual circumstances. Beyond that, well, it's mostly tosh.
Again, you lack coherence. I recognize nothing that I wrote in your little summary here.
Have you taken a poll?
Yes, I have. So far, it's 100% refusal to forget any slight of the past among Americans of relatively recent Balkan extraction. It's a very striking result.
Some people look back, some look forward, sadly too many don't seem to look anywhere at all. The better one's lot the less likely they are to blame the actions of others, even if they occured centuries ago. I would have thought that was obvious.
And what are you trying to say here? There are many obvious things, but being obvious isn't enough to affect belief or behavior.
 

dong20

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Dong, my wariness, or call it paranioa with respect to muslims is based on both research and 20+ years of experience. My experience is that many muslims are often polite, courteous and careful when clearly in the massive minority but that they rapidly become intolerable and massively intolerant as members of a pluralistic society as their numbers increase. Once critical mass is reached the moderates overwhelmingly go along with or allow whatever the more radical members of the religion propose.

Well of course you are entitled to your view but you seem to be missing the fact my post (or any others here) wasn't seeking to address the relative merits of Islam, or any other ideology or religion but the risk of unilaterally condemning one based on a radical element within it. I was doing so in response to some remarks by BD with which I took issue. Of course the same applies to many organised, structured religions, ideologies or philosophies with the possible exception of Buddhism. I have never come across Buddhist fundementalism, have you?

Do I think Islamic fundementalism can be a catalyst for evil? - of course, as can Christianity or and any number of faiths that have or 'permit' radical elements, Is Islam expecially notable in this regard, well I'm not sure, but it certainly gets more attention than most which can make it appear so. But, consider for a moment how equally insanse and unfathomable the likes of the late Falwell et al may appear to Muslim eyes.

In short I don't think in the hands of everyday people Islam presents significantly more danger than any other faith. In the hands of extremists perhaps it may, at least in a modern times but recall if you will the actions of Christian extremists in even the comparatively recent past before you bite my head off and view the actions in that context.

Do I think Radical Islam presents a clear and present danger to the stabiltiy and security of the 'Christian west' - Yes, but only to a limited degree and mainly in the sense that we brought much of any danger upon ourselves by our intransigence. I also think that Christian fundementalism presents at least as great a danger by polarising opinion against not just Islam but anything that doesn't fit the 'true Chrtistian' ethic - it's becoming the faithful dog that's turned on it's master.

Do I think that that makes Islam (or Christianity) 'stupid or evil' per se - No, but then I think being a avid devotee of any religion or belief structure which seeks to delegate or abrogate personal responsibility for the cause of or responsibility for one's actions to some unproven, all knowing infallible 'entity' is highly questionable - but that's my personal view not a de facto statement of fact. Providing such devotion remains personal I have no issue with it. When it becomes radical I do.
 

dong20

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So how does noticing that it's little more than an animated corpse disqualify me from commenting?

You brought up the close to rigor state, not I.:rolleyes:

You admit to deliberate misunderstanding, and expect me to ... what? I'm not going to reduce my posts to one-syllable words for those lacking central nervous systems.

Don't be such an ass, my very wording indicated that I understood perfectly as you well know.:rolleyes: The point was made that way to underscore the underlying flaws in the premise of your argument as I see them.

Which will never happen. Do you believe that because of that there will be no wars?

I think that's what I said, but you chose to edit that bit out. And no I don't, did I suggest I did?

Which was exactly what I said.

Actually, no it wasn't, not even close. What you said was:

"We've had several statements here of the "you can't blame everyone [in some identifiable group] because of a few extremists" sort. Unfortunately, you can in some cases, the most notable being warfare. In fact in those cases you not only can, but you must. Warfare is group responsibility writ large."

The Japanese people en masse were not responsible for the actions of their government or military, any more than the US people are for the actions of Bush, if that's your argument (that you think they are) then say so. Of course that won't stop idiots on all sides blaming every last citizen of their latest 'enemy' state as evil incarnate.

But note that guilt doesn't generally come into it. Wars are not automatically "war crimes", and if no crime is involved, how would the concept of "guilt" apply?

Guilt in that sense would naturally be contingent on a crime having been commited, and of course war is not a crime by defintion. I believe that was made clear in another recent thread accusing Bush of being a War Criminal.

I could (should?) have used the word 'responsible' but I thought the meaning was clearly implicit in my statement without the need for pictures, if the all you can do is take that single word out of it's clearly intended context and meaning and make it an issue you're wasting my time here.

Is there an accusation buried in this incoherence? I can't tell.

No, it was a question. But in case of doubt, you can tell by the question mark at the end...:rolleyes:

I see no good justification for drawing generalizations about the state of Islam worldwide from the behavior of samples of adherents in the US.

Why not, you seem happy to do advocate, tacitly at least, doing exactly that. See above.^^

Yes, I have. So far, it's 100% refusal to forget any slight of the past among Americans of relatively recent Balkan extraction. It's a very striking result.

Well, if you insist.

And what are you trying to say here? There are many obvious things, but being obvious isn't enough to affect belief or behavior.

Are you just being deliberately obtuse? If you are happy and successful you will tend to be less critical of (long) past injustices that may have (or you imagined may have) impeded your route to said success, and vice versa. Next time I shall use a diagram with flow charts.
 

dong20

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dong20, I'm glad that you mentioned "the Klan". Because there's a big difference between how USA dealt with the KKK and how the Islamic world deals with their radical groups.

It was a bad example in a way but used for an express purpose...^^^^

As you may know, the FBI heavily infiltrated the KKK and some of the tactics are illegal today. The FBI essentially destroyed KKK. It still exists, but a shell of what it was, and the FBI still watches them. Books have been written about how it was done. Today I'd say most Americans would approve of what the FBI did, perhaps even approve of the now illegal stuff.

Do I think it's occasionally necessary or permissible to step outside the law for the greater good, well that's a good question. It's certainly expedient and if it acheives a good result it's hard to deny it's validity. The key element is who gets to make that call and under what is the threshold of justifiability?

Timothy McVeigh is an example of an American terrorist. He built and set off the bomb in Oklahoma City. But he had to face consequences: some medicine known as lethal injection. He got what he deserved. I'd say most Americans would concur.

Yes he was, but the merits of captial punishment are not germaine here.

When I look at the Islamic world and how they're handling their radicals, I see mostly apathy. Particularly from in the public. And that's being polite ... very polite. Someday they may get ballsy enough to go after their own radicals in a big way. Saudi Arabia has started to, but it's only a start. Until the Islamic world goes after their radicals, I will hold a low opinion of them, collectively. By "go after" I mean aggressive official action with majority backing from their public. I don't expect to see that anytime soon.

Yes,so do I. but I see the same thing in terms of Christian fundementalism, Certainly, modern day Christian fundementalism is more rhetoric than car bombs but it has been otherwise in the past, even the recent past, who can say it won't be again, especially if it feels under threat? It's very familiarity makes it more insidious, it can undermine our governments, our classrooms and our societies far more easily because of its comfortable familiarity. I mean, it's Christianity right, how dangerous can that be?

It's that double standard that I seem being conveniently overlooked. Radical Islam is an easier, more visible and palatable target not simply because it's (currently) more militant and violent but because it's not 'us'.

Dong's equation may apply here...:tongue:

P.S. - You know what I mean by 'us'?
 

dong20

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..... with the possible exception of Buddhism. I have never come across Buddhist fundementalism, have you?

I was premature, I had not really considered Buddhism properly and while it seems very much at odds with Buddhism as I understand it, which is, admittedly, not well it seems it does exist, at least of a sort.

Buddhist Fundamentalism and others....
 

SteveHd

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dong20, comparing the KKK to Islamic radicals is a closer fit than you think. The KKK was largely religion-based: pro-Christian and anti-Semitic. They used violence that today would be called terrorism. I think it's a good example, though dated.

I didn't mean to suggest that FBI broke the law as it was then. They may have, I'm not sure. I wrote "some of the tactics are illegal today". That's due to new law passed in the intervening years. Even without those "tactics" the FBI still would have emasculated the KKK. It might have taken longer.
Yes,so do I. but I see the same thing in terms of Christian fundementalism, Certainly, modern day Christian fundementalism is more rhetoric than car bombs but it has been otherwise in the past, even the recent past, who can say it won't be again, especially if it feels under threat? ...
The Christian fundies could resort to violence but if they take that step, law enforcement pounce on those responsible like flies on a dogpile! *That was slightly gross.* Just because they're Christians doesn't mean the law is going to cut them slack. Most of them know that. Eric Rudolph and the like: are dealt with.
It's that double standard that I seem being conveniently overlooked. Radical Islam is an easier, more visible and palatable target not simply because it's (currently) more militant and violent but because it's not 'us'.
I don't see a double standard. We have radicals and when they cross the line into violence we deal with them. Eric Rudolph has an unpleasent life these days. That's a key difference I see between "us" and the Islamic world.
 

vince

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OK hands up or down to the following questions-

Who amoung you posting on this thread has-
Spent any time in Lebanon?
In Israel?
The "Middle East"?
How many Muslims do you know personally?
How many fundamentalist Muslims do you know?

Based on the crap I've read on both sides of this thread I'd bet the answer would be 'no' or 'none'.

Opinions based on information gathered from "news" organizations are at best misinformed. At worst dangerous.
 

SteveHd

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Opinions based on information gathered from "news" organizations are at best misinformed. At worst dangerous.
The above text is the only part of your message worthy of a reply. The rest was "crap".

As stated elsewhere I have a very low opinion of the mainstream media. But we're stuck with it. What I do is use varied sources: some left-wing, some right-wing and compare and contrast their reports. I purposely avoid the "middle" sources and those claim or think they're unbiased. I've observed that all media can be biased but not know it nor admit it. They all can be inaccurate, especially when a story is breaking. I generally ignore breaking stories until the dust has settled.

Vince, maybe I am "misinformed" but I think I'm better informed than a typical American. If you don't like my opinions, tough shit!
 

dong20

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OK hands up or down to the following questions-

Who amoung you posting on this thread has-

Spent any time in Lebanon?
Yes
In Israel?
No (but close..Aqaba, and the Lebanese border)
The "Middle East"?
Yes, several times (including Turkey FWIW)
How many Muslims do you know personally?
At all well,about 10
How many fundamentalist Muslims do you know?
2 that I can think of

Based on the crap I've read on both sides of this thread I'd bet the answer would be 'no' or 'none'.

Well Mr. Expert, please, enlighten us crap merchants.:rolleyes:

Opinions based on information gathered from "news" organizations are at best misinformed. At worst dangerous.

Well, that applies to most opinions, however sourced I'd say. based on what you're written so far, I see no reason to make you an exception.:smile:
 

dong20

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dong20, comparing the KKK to Islamic radicals is a closer fit than you think. The KKK was largely religion-based: pro-Christian and anti-Semitic. They used violence that today would be called terrorism. I think it's a good example, though dated.

True, I suppose you have a point I didn't think that deeply when posting, at least not consciously!

I didn't mean to suggest that FBI broke the law as it was then. They may have, I'm not sure. I wrote "some of the tactics are illegal today". That's due to new law passed in the intervening years. Even without those "tactics" the FBI still would have emasculated the KKK. It might have taken longer.

I'd be surprised if they hadn't.

The Christian fundies could resort to violence but if they take that step, law enforcement pounce on those responsible like flies on a dogpile! *That was slightly gross.* Just because they're Christians doesn't mean the law is going to cut them slack. Most of them know that. Eric Rudolph and the like: are dealt with.

Hmmm, I'm unconvinced that it wouldn't take a higher threshold to invoke such stepping on, but that's as much the current, deepening theme of anti Islamic sentiments, not just in the US.


I don't see a double standard. We have radicals and when they cross the line into violence we deal with them. Eric Rudolph has an unpleasent life these days. That's a key difference I see between "us" and the Islamic world.

I see little effective difference between say Falwell et al saying that the recent shooting was "ordained by God" thus justified or some such stupidity and by doing so indirectly endorsing it, potentially inciting follow up actions by like minded Christian fundementalists* and say, Islamic fundementalists saying the same about some of their actions.

The difference as I see it is this; had an Islamic radical said the same with they would be more likely to find themselves in orange overalls PDQ. Falwell may be dead but his ideas live on and I see no actions taken to silence them...and little outrage either so yes I do see a double standard though I suppose we will have to agree to disagree on that.:biggrin1:

* Yes I know the actual killer wasn't acting in that way.
 

D_Humper E Bogart

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OK hands up or down to the following questions-

Who amoung you posting on this thread has-
Spent any time in Lebanon?
In Israel?
The "Middle East"?
How many Muslims do you know personally?
How many fundamentalist Muslims do you know?

Based on the crap I've read on both sides of this thread I'd bet the answer would be 'no' or 'none'.

Opinions based on information gathered from "news" organizations are at best misinformed. At worst dangerous.
Never been to the Mid East. Know quite a few "brown brothers" from University, my local area...etc etc. And the number of fundies in my area is pretty low. :) (I don't live in the US! Yay!)
 

dong20

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OK hands up or down to the following questions-

Who amoung you posting on this thread has-

Spent any time in Lebanon?
Yes
In Israel?
No (but close..Aqaba, and the Lebanese border)
The "Middle East"?
Yes, several times (including Turkey FWIW)
How many Muslims do you know personally?
At all well,about 10
How many fundamentalist Muslims do you know?
2 that I can think of

Based on the crap I've read on both sides of this thread I'd bet the answer would be 'no' or 'none'.

Well Mr. Expert, please, enlighten us crap merchants.:rolleyes:

Opinions based on information gathered from "news" organizations are at best misinformed. At worst dangerous.

Well, that applies to most opinions, however sourced I'd say. based on what you're written so far, I see no reason to make you an exception.:smile:

Vince, I'm still waiting to be amazed by your implied wisdom in this matter, us crap peddlers need all the help we can get.:rolleyes:
 

vince

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dear dong. Funny I was just sitting down after work to do exactly that. So please be patient a little while longer and I will respond.
 

ClaireTalon

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I have been to sandland twice professionally :)cool:), and from what I caught from my distanced point of view, it was not difficult for me to understand the screw-up in Palestine. I'm not saying every Palestinian is a dumbass, but when it comes to power, the ethics in nearly all arab countries are a little delicate. An old saying goes Me and my brother against our cousin, me and my cousin against our tribe, and me and my tribe against the world. That sums it up pretty much, the changing loyalties are strange to our western business ethics. Plus, as long as an AK-47 is considered as being at least as much an asset of masculinity as a dick, I doubt the fuse to this powder keg is ever going to be put out.

Vince, may I ask what qualifies you to stamp us as idiots?

OK hands up or down to the following questions-

Who amoung you posting on this thread has-
Spent any time in Lebanon?
In Israel?
The "Middle East"?
How many Muslims do you know personally?
How many fundamentalist Muslims do you know?

Based on the crap I've read on both sides of this thread I'd bet the answer would be 'no' or 'none'.

Opinions based on information gathered from "news" organizations are at best misinformed. At worst dangerous.
 

dong20

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I have been to sandland twice professionally :)cool:), and from what I caught from my distanced point of view, it was not difficult for me to understand the screw-up in Palestine. I'm not saying every Palestinian is a dumbass, but when it comes to power, the ethics in nearly all arab countries are a little delicate. An old saying goes Me and my brother against our cousin, me and my cousin against our tribe, and me and my tribe against the world. That sums it up pretty much, the changing loyalties are strange to our western business ethics. Plus, as long as an AK-47 is considered as being at least as much an asset of masculinity as a dick, I doubt the fuse to this powder keg is ever going to be put out.

I think you're pretty much on the mark, speaking in generalised abstract terms of course, which is all most of us who have not been embroiled in such situations up to our eyeballs from birth will probably ever be. I found my experiences in the region at once infinitely enlightening and infinitely frustrating.

Vince, may I ask what qualifies you to stamp us as idiots?

I think we're about to find out. ^^^^^:smile:
 

stretcher74

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Well of course you are entitled to your view but you seem to be missing the fact my post (or any others here) wasn't seeking to address the relative merits of Islam, or any other ideology or religion but the risk of unilaterally condemning one based on a radical element within it. I was doing so in response to some remarks by BD with which I took issue. Of course the same applies to many organised, structured religions, ideologies or philosophies with the possible exception of Buddhism. I have never come across Buddhist fundementalism, have you?

Do I think Islamic fundementalism can be a catalyst for evil? - of course, as can Christianity or and any number of faiths that have or 'permit' radical elements, Is Islam expecially notable in this regard, well I'm not sure, but it certainly gets more attention than most which can make it appear so. But, consider for a moment how equally insanse and unfathomable the likes of the late Falwell et al may appear to Muslim eyes.

In short I don't think in the hands of everyday people Islam presents significantly more danger than any other faith. In the hands of extremists perhaps it may, at least in a modern times but recall if you will the actions of Christian extremists in even the comparatively recent past before you bite my head off and view the actions in that context.

Do I think Radical Islam presents a clear and present danger to the stabiltiy and security of the 'Christian west' - Yes, but only to a limited degree and mainly in the sense that we brought much of any danger upon ourselves by our intransigence. I also think that Christian fundementalism presents at least as great a danger by polarising opinion against not just Islam but anything that doesn't fit the 'true Chrtistian' ethic - it's becoming the faithful dog that's turned on it's master.

Do I think that that makes Islam (or Christianity) 'stupid or evil' per se - No, but then I think being a avid devotee of any religion or belief structure which seeks to delegate or abrogate personal responsibility for the cause of or responsibility for one's actions to some unproven, all knowing infallible 'entity' is highly questionable - but that's my personal view not a de facto statement of fact. Providing such devotion remains personal I have no issue with it. When it becomes radical I do.

Actually there are Buddhist fundamentalists even violent ones. I'm not really getting the point of your speech. All or most religions have bad elements and most/all religions have bad actors ? Well knock me over with a feather. Speaking to the subject of whether Islam is bad or Islam is good this in kind of a non sequitor(other things are bad so this is not ?). Your next conclusion is that the radicals of Islam don't characterize the faith any more than the radicals of Christianity do. I tend to disagree.

For the record I know 30+ who I've had the fortune of interacting with in my work/travels, I and have never been to "sandland" as you call it here. From my discussions I'd classify about 1/4 as fundies and as maybe as many as 1/4 as potentially tolerant functional long term members of western-liberal society. The rest, somewhere in between often play their cards close to their chest but tend to be quite clear as to where they will side (against every human freedom,dignity and expression) as their numbers become greater ... if you take the time to ask them about it they are secretly proud to be tearing down the western civilization that feeds them.

Women are a commodity of whores. Art and culture and history and science that do not serve mullahland are all indecency. Revenge and Torture is sanctioned by a god of cruelty and finality. Submission to this is a virtue. The infidel will burn. There is a rage and arrogance inside these people belonging to the truly spoiled and babylike that cannot seem to be put out.

Perhaps you see things differently, but I think ultimately you equivocate untill there is no judgement left.
 

dong20

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Actually there are Buddhist fundamentalists even violent ones.

Yes, I know. I posted immediately afterward to say that, did you miss it or just choose to ignore it?

I'm not really getting the point of your speech. All or most religions have bad elements and most/all religions have bad actors ? Well knock me over with a feather. Speaking to the subject of whether Islam is bad or Islam is good this in kind of a non sequitor(other things are bad so this is not ?). Your next conclusion is that the radicals of Islam don't characterize the faith any more than the radicals of Christianity do. I tend to disagree.

I could say the same about the above, yes I said that there are good and bad in all religions. No, it's not revolutionary but then it wasn't meant to be. Are the extremes of Islam worse than the extremes of Chrtistianity (in all its many forms) - well have a look at the history of both and tell me what you think, I think it's nearer six of one..... than you may realise.

No, the difference between us appears to be that you appear to consider Islam as fundementally bad even stupid (your words), I don't. It wasn't a conclusion but a personal opinion, no more, or less, valid than your own, if perhaps a little less closed minded.

You can disagree with me all you want, as you undoubtably will, but to persaude me you'll need to offer some evidence beyond "Islam is stupid" for me to pay attention.

For the record I know 30+ who I've had the fortune of interacting with in my work/travels, I and have never been to "sandland" as you call it here. From my discussions I'd classify about 1/4 as fundies and as maybe as many as 1/4 as potentially tolerant functional long term members of western-liberal society. The rest, somewhere in between often play their cards close to their chest but tend to be quite clear as to where they will side (against every human freedom,dignity and expression) as their numbers become greater ... if you take the time to ask them about it they are secretly proud to be tearing down the western civilization that feeds them.

You have me confused, intentionally or not I can't say - I didn't refer to anywhere as 'sandland' that was another poster.:rolleyes:

I think that sample would apply to most random samples of people regardless of faith. Did you ever stop to ask if their attitudes may be reflecting you own evident bias? I mean it's not like you come across as having an open mind on this issue.

Women are a commodity of whores. Art and culture and history and science that do not serve mullahland are all indecency. Revenge and Torture is sanctioned by a god of cruelty and finality. Submission to this is a virtue. The infidel will burn. There is a rage and arrogance inside these people belonging to the truly spoiled and babylike that cannot seem to be put out.

Yawn. Read the bible, or the Koran for that matter then come back with something original.:rolleyes:

Perhaps you see things differently, but I think ultimately you equivocate untill there is no judgement left.

If by that you mean I don't condemn at the first opportunity on the basis of popular perception and the activities of those who don't fairly represent the majority, then yes. You may choose to dive straight in with your own version of right and wrong based on whatever moral or other criteria you deem fit to apply, that's your prerogative.
 

vince

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Dear Dong,

Crap. It's too strong a word to use for much of the discussion that been posted above. Sorry for that. Most of the posters are expressing opinions which are reasonably argued and well thought out. I may not agree with all the points, but they are readable and give food for thought. These can be debated, even heatedly, without crossing the line of civility. Apologies to those who did not post hate or engage in direct personal attacks.

Crap happens when opinions are expressed in terms of hate. Or by deliberately twisting your opponents words. (I can hear the snide comments about "political correctness" coming a mile away). Freedom of speech does not mean an individual is allowed to say whatever distorted or hateful or insulting thing they want. There are limits.

Some examples-
Stretcher74
I should clarify. I'm anti-muslim, but that doesn't make me racist. I think the religion is stupid and evil. It's the religion and associated death-murder apocaypto-style culture that hold these regions back, not anything to do with their ethnicity. Babylon/persia are where civilization started for goodness sake. Code of Laws/rights Hanarabbi(sp), Archetecture, Writing, Agriculture, Literature, Irrigation, Art huge emipres with logistics and trade and then Islam pours out of Arabia extinguishing one culture and civilization after another ... and for advancement ... not so much at all. Like a wet blanket thrown over a lamp.

The Jews have been stubborn enough not to yield or die and this drives the infernal musulmen(sic) round the bend.


Ever heard of the Ottoman Empire? It was a Muslim empire which lasted over 600 years. With codes of laws, logistics, architecture etc etc. Jews and Christians were treated with more respect and tolarance than Europe afforded non-Christians at the time. The Ottoman Sultan gave refuge to Jews fleeing Spanish and Portuguese oppression at the end of 15th century and later in the 17th century. The Ottoman Empire was more than a refuge: it became homeland and safe haven for Jews and other oppressed people throughout its history. Christians ran the bureaucracy and served as the Grand Visir to the Sultan.

Stretcher74 again-
You can go to University in Saudi Arabia and instead of learning about the world or science, you learn about contempt for all who make things or do good in this world and why your profane religion makes you worthy of divine handouts from the hand of the Murder-Rape and plunder god of Mohammed forever.

Cheers !

" Murder-Rape and plunder god of Mohammed forever." This is pure hate.
The God named Allah is the same God Baptists in Kansas pray to. Show some respect man.

Stretcher-
Israel should carpet bomb them out of existance like Imperial Japan. The UN will pass a resolutions condeming them either way.The US should sell fucking warbonds and gather kitchen grease for the project.

Like I said before- nice final solution. Bomb'em.


Dong, I actually agreed with most of your posts. Plus you have much more balanced and rational way of presenting your point of view. But when you called Big Dirigable an ass and told someone else they write like a 10 year old, you cross the line in to crapdom. Speaking like that just makes you look small.
You snidely called me "Mr. Expert". I don't claim any expertise on the problems in the Lebonon, or the mideast. I just happen to live here and it really astounds me to hear how skewed and angry poeple can about a culture they have had virtually no contact with. Other than the media. I wish I could take Stretcher74 down to the bazaar and have tea with my friends. He may understand that we are not so different from them.

SteveHD- I am glad you try to read a balanced range of news. Good for you. But what the point of insulting the Palestinians by calling them "accomplished losers?" Do you think that a Palestinian can read that and not be insulted? Put yourself in their shoes and think about how that would make you feel. How do you like when somebody is really insulting to your nation? And just cuz they do it doesn't excuse you from being civil.

ClareTalon- Glad to hear you've been to "sandland". Sounds like it was an enlightening experience for you. By the way I don't recall stamping anyone an idiot. Did I use that word? Did I even specified who I thought was talking crap? No I didn't, and I didn't have your posts in mind at all.

OK thats all I'm writing tonight. I look forward to the flames!
Selam Alikum