We're overdue a Mid East thread

stretcher74

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> " Murder-Rape and plunder god of Mohammed forever." This is pure hate.

Not hate, fact.

Murder,Rape and Plunder all neatly laid out in the Koran in black and white chicken-scribble. It's in the old testament too, but at least there's that long haired hippie to tone it down a little.

It's these books that are hate literature.
 

stretcher74

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history depends where you're standing, here is another view:

shall we run a rapid eye over the History that Mr. Doudou would like to control or rather cancel?

It was in 635 AD, that is three years after Mohammed's death, that the armies of the Crescent Moon invaded Christian Syria and Christian Palestine. It was in 638 that they took Jerusalem and the Holy Sepulchure. It was in 640 that after conquering Persia and Armenia and Mesopotamia, present-day Iraq, they invaded Christian Egypt and overran Christian Maghreb. That is, the present Tunisia and Algeria and Morocco. It was in 668 that for the first time they attacked Constantinople and laid a siege that would last five years. It was in 711 that after crossing the Strait of Gibralter they landed in the most Catholic Iberian Peninsula, took possession of Portugal and Spain where despite the Pelayos and the Cid Campeadors and the other warriors engaged in the Reconquest they remained for noless than eight centuries. And whoever believes in the myth of *peaceful coexistence that marked the relationships between the conquered and the conquerors* should reread the stories of the burned convents and monestaries, of the profaned churches, of the raped nuns, of the Christian or Jewish women abducted to be locked away in their harems. He should ponder on the crucifixioins of Cordoba, the hangings of Grenada, the beheadings of Toledo and Barcelona, of Seville and Zamora. (The beheadings of Seville, ordered by Mutamid: the king who used those severed heads, heads of Jews and Christians, to adorn his palace. The beheadings of Zamora, ordered by Almanzor: the vizier who was called the-patron-of-the-philosophers, the greatest leader Islamic Spain has ever produced). Christ! Invoking the name of Jesus meant instant execution. Crucifixion, of course, or decapitation or hanging or impalement. Ringing a bell, the same. Wearing green, the colour exclusive to Islam, also. And when a Muslim passed by, every Jew and Christian was obliged to step aside. To bow. And mind to the Jew or the Christian who dared react to the insults of a Muslim. As for the much-flaunted detail that the infidel-dogs were not obliged to convert to Islam, not even encouraged to do so, do you know why they were not? Because those who converted to Islam did not pay taxes. Those who refused, on the contrary, did.

From Spain, in 721 AD, they passed into the no less Catholic France. Led by Abd al-Rahman, the Governor of Andalusia, they crossed the Pyrenees and took Narbonne. There they massacred the entire male population, enslaved all the women and children, then proceeded towards Carcassonne. From Carcassonne they were to Nimes where they slaughtered nuns and friars. From Nimes they went to Lyons and Dijon where they pillaged every single church... And do you know how long their advance in France lasted? Eleven years. In waves. In 731 a wave of three hundred and eighty thousand infantry and sixteen thousand cavalry reached Bordeaux which surrendered at once. Then from Bordeaux it moved to Poitiers, from Poitiers it moved to Tours and, if in 732 Charles Martel had not won the battle of Poitiers-Tours, today the French too would dance the flamenco. In 827 they landed in Sicily, another target of their voraciousness. Massacring, beheading, impaling, crucifying as usual, they conquered Syracuse and Taormina the Messina and Palermo, and in three-quarters of a century (which is what it took to break the proud resistance of the Sicilians) they Islamized the island. They stayed for over two centuries, in Sicily: until they werre cleared out by the Normans. But in 836 they landed at Brindisi. In 840, at Bari. And they Islamized Puglia too. In 841 they landed at Ancona. Then from the Adriatic they moved back to the Tyrrhenian Sea and in the summer of 846 landed at Ostia. They sacked it, they burned it, and moving upriver from the mouth of the Tiber they reached Rome. They laid siege to it and one night they burst in. They plundered the basilicas of St. Peter and St. Paul, sacked both, and to get rid of them Pope Sergius II had to stipulate an annual tribute of twenty-five thousand pieces of silver. To prevent further attacks, his successor Leon IV had to erect the Leonine Walls.

Having left Rome, though, they descended on Campania. They stayed there for seventy years destroying Montecassino and tormenting Salerno. A city where, at one time, they amused themselves by sacrificing a nun's virginity every night. Do you know where? On the cathedral's altar. In 898 they landed in Provence. To be precise, in present-day St. Tropez. They settled there, and in 911 crossed the Alps to enter Piedmont. They occupied Turin and Casale, set fire to all the churches and libraries, killed thousands of Christians, then went to Switzerland. Here they reached the Graubunden valley and the lake of Geneva. Then, put off by the snow, did an about-turn and returned to the warm climate of Provence. In 940 they occupied Toulon where they settled and... Today it's fashionable to beat our breast over the Crusades. To blame the West for the Crusades. To see the Crusales as an injustice committed to the detriment of the poor-innocent-Muslims. But before being a series of expeditions to regain possession of the Holy Sepulchure that is of Jerusalem (which had been taken by the Muslims, remember, not by my aunt), the Crusades were the response to four centuries of invasions and occupations. They were a counter-offensive to stem Islamic expansionism in Europe. To deflect it, mors tua vita mea, towards the Orient (meaning India and Indonesia and China) then towards the whole African continent and towards Russia and Siberia where the Tartars converted to Islam were already crushing the followers of Christ. At the conclusion of the Crusades, in fact, the sons of Allah resumed their persecutions as before and more than before.

By the hand of the Turks, this time. The Turks who were about the prepare the birth to the Ottoman Empire. An empire that until 1700 would concentrate on the West all of its greed: turn Europe into its favourite battlefield. Interpreters and bearers of that greed, the famous Janissaries who still today enrich our language with the synonym of killer fanatic assassin. And do you know who the Janissaries actually were? The chosen troops of the Empire, the super-soldiers as capable of self-immolation as of fighting and massacring and sacking. Do you know where they were recruited or rather pressed into service? In the countries subjugated by the Empire. In Greece, for example, or in Bulgaria, in Romania, in Hungary, in Albania, in Serbia. Often in Italy too, along the coasts plied by their pirates. Those coasts where still today you can see the remains of the watchtowers used for spotting their arrival and warning the towns and villages. And where still resounds the echo of the scream which today is used as a mockery but at that time was a cry of terror and despair: *Mamma, li turchi! Mother, the Turks!*. They abducted those killers to be at the age of eleven or twelve, together with even younger children to punt in the seraglios of the sultans and viziers given to paedophilia, and they chose them from the best-looking and strongest of the important families' firstborns. After the conversion they shut them in the military barracks and here, forbidding them to have any kind of amorous or affectionate relations, marriage included, they indoctrinated them as not even Hitler would indoctrinate his Waffen SS. They turned them into the most formidable fighting machine the world has seen since Roman times.
 

dong20

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Ever heard of the Ottoman Empire? It was a Muslim empire which lasted over 600 years. With codes of laws, logistics, architecture etc etc. Jews and Christians were treated with more respect and tolarance than Europe afforded non-Christians at the time. The Ottoman Sultan gave refuge to Jews fleeing Spanish and Portuguese oppression at the end of 15th century and later in the 17th century. The Ottoman Empire was more than a refuge: it became homeland and safe haven for Jews and other oppressed people throughout its history. Christians ran the bureaucracy and served as the Grand Visir to the Sultan.

Historical precedent is usually used here as stick rather than a learning aid, glad to see you're not among that crowd.


Dong, I actually agreed with most of your posts. Plus you have much more balanced and rational way of presenting your point of view. But when you called Big Dirigable an ass and told someone else they write like a 10 year old, you cross the line in to crapdom. Speaking like that just makes you look small.

Well, I would say suggesting that peoples opinions are crap doesn't set you head and shoulders above that behaviour.

As for BD, that's pretty normal banter for he and I. He's smart and opinionated and he knows I know that and I respect his opinion whether I agree with it or not. I still think he's an ass at times and I'm sure he feels the same about me (that I'm an ass I mean)...As for the 10 yo comment, yes it was childish but not entirely unjustified at the time IMO.

You snidely called me "Mr. Expert". I don't claim any expertise on the problems in the Lebonon, or the mideast.

Yes I did and I reacted to you that way because you came in out of the blue with a blanket statement that most all we had written was crap yet offered nothing substantive to back that contention up, and then left. The inference that you therefore considered yourself an expert by denegrating others views seemed entirely logical.

In fairness, I'm not sure exactly how we were supposed to react, but when people I don't know get in my face and suggest I'm talking crap without explanation, I'm not usually inclined to take it lying down, would you?

Anyway, you had the decency to retract that above so let's move on.:smile:

I just happen to live here and it really astounds me to hear how skewed and angry poeple can about a culture they have had virtually no contact with. Other than the media. I wish I could take Stretcher74 down to the bazaar and have tea with my friends. He may understand that we are not so different from them.

It bugs me when people do that too but it's far from uncommon. I spent many happy afternoons drinking a variety of teas, I especially liked the apple tea I had in the khan el khalili while haggling over something or other. I never could find that 'stall' again.:rolleyes:

OK thats all I'm writing tonight. I look forward to the flames! Selam Alikum

You may need Stretcher's damp blanket.:rolleyes:
 

dreamer20

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Not hate, fact.

Murder,Rape and Plunder all neatly laid out in the in the old testament too, but at least there's that long haired hippie to tone it down a little.

It's these books that are hate literature.

Who was that hippie in the old testament to whom you referred?:smile:
 

vince

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So Stretcher you gave us all a history lesson in the mis-deeds of the conquering hordes of Muslims. It was educational. I guess your opinions formed by these histories and by present day events.

But we ALL have histories and I don't think any of them are very pretty.
For example- I grew up in Canada and the States. Our forebearers committed unspeakable acts of conquest against the native peoples who had lived there for thousands of years. Just as brutal as anything done in the name of Islam.

Read- "I saw the helpless Cherokees arrested and dragged from their homes, and driven at the bayonet point into the stockades. And in the chill of a drizzling rain on an October morning I saw them loaded like cattle or sheep into six hundred and forty-five wagons and started toward the west....On the morning of November the 17th we encountered a terrific sleet and snow storm with freezing temperatures and from that day until we reached the end of the fateful journey on March the 26th 1839, the sufferings of the Cherokees were awful. The trail of the exiles was a trail of death. They had to sleep in the wagons and on the ground without fire. And I have known as many as twenty-two of them to die in one night of pneumonia due to ill treatment, cold and exposure..."
-Private John G. Burnett
Captain Abraham McClellan's Company,
2nd Regiment, 2nd Brigade, Mounted Infantry
Cherokee Indian Removal 1838-39


Some around 10,000 people died in the forced removals of the natives from the south. That is only one example of the brutality inflected by OUR ancestors. I could go on about DeSoto's dogs of war, small pox infected blankets traded by the English to the natives, etc etc. You get the idea I think.

Does this give anyone the right to speak of us in the same way you characterize Muslims?

History is full of more examples of man's inhumanity to man. No people or nation is innocent.

In your post you said-
Interpreters and bearers of that greed, the famous Janissaries who still today enrich our language with the synonym of killer fanatic assassin.

For your information the word assassin came from the name given to a Muslim sect of Ismailis, founded in c.1090 by Hasan ibn al-Sabbah. They fought against orthodox Muslims and Christian Crusaders and committed many political murders, until their eventual defeat in the 13th century.

I don't excuse Islamic terrorists, assassins, or extreme fundamentalists for their actions. they should be brought to justice. Osama should swing from the highest tree in Afganistan. (we kinda dropped the ball on that one didn't we? the dumb ass neo-cons attacked one of Osama's sworn enemies because "Saddam tried to kill my Dad").

I think that before we go condeming one group of people for their brutal histories, we should contemplate (and teach) our own true pasts. Maybe we could all be a bit more tolerant and less fearful if that ever happened.
 

dong20

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vince said:
I think that before we go condeming one group of people for their brutal histories, we should contemplate (and teach) our own true pasts. Maybe we could all be a bit more tolerant and less fearful if that ever happened.

Yes, the past can be a helpful pointer to understanding our current behaviours and a salutory, often brutal reality check. It should never be ignored - but, ultimately it's the present and future that really matter.

The snag is that many minds remain closed to a rational appreciation of that simple reality, their attitudes remain rooted in past hatreds even if they have never experienced its effects first hand. Thus, an unwillingness on either side to dial down the rhetoric may prevail - so, to the weakest among the protagonists, their future can look bleak, even hopeless.

I see the situation in the much of the Middle East as an example of that effect. Until people are willing to let go of the past even to a degree, it's hard to see how either side can move forward at a meaningful pace. That's easy to say from here of course.

After all, it took Ireland centuries, to get to where it is now, the Balkans is another example and I think we're far from out of the woods on those and others.
 

SteveHd

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But what the point of insulting the Palestinians by calling them "accomplished losers?" Do you think that a Palestinian can read that and not be insulted?
It wasn't my intent to be insulting. In retrospect, I see it was harsh. They've made many bad mistakes that have put themselves in the predicament they're in. I'm sure the wiser ones know that.
And just cuz they do it doesn't excuse you from being civil.
Are you excused from writing [in a later post] "the dumb ass neo-cons ..."? I'm not a neo-con but I could see them being pissed off about that. They're people too. I don't call people I disagree with "dumb" nor "stupid". I might call their ideas dumb or stupid, but not the individuals. A lot of people have difficulty making that distinction.

Where is Antalya? If it's in Turkey, you're not living in the middle east. Turkey has a secular Islamic gov't which really can't be compared to those in the middle east.
 

stretcher74

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Of course the past matters. Both as it was and as it is understood in the minds of those living. Past is prologue. Tidy of you to accept the importance of the past, then disregard it when it is unsuitable for your arguments or present mood.

My brief devolution into the murderous history of those fighting under the black flags of Islam was instigated by the uncritical implication by a poster here that Sultanic Turkey had been a light of goodness and understanding to the world.

Of course there is a point at which the past is too removed or abstracted from the present to have a meaningful bearing on the present for us here. I can think of the pharohs of egypt as a good example. What matters is continunity, culture, society and civilization that continues from the past, into and shapes the present.

Some have claimed as north of 300 million killed and as many more enslaved or forcibly converted at the hand of these "Sons of Allah" over 1400 years of warfare. It's a signifigant portion of the human race. But I'm supposed to ignore this as unPC ? Dismiss that mass murder and genocide may in point of fact be a contigous, integral and ongoing part the history of Islam ? (and yes a similar history of christianity is possible)

And more: The (attas)turks are now a beacon of modernity and rationality in all this madness you say? I say bullshit. Except of course for the blood of a few million christian armenian dead on their hands circa 1916. That is the protection of respected minorities in Islamic society for you.

Surely the turks recognize and have tried to reconcile themselves with this great tragedy ? Oh that's right, just saying it in turkey gets you jailtime or killed.

I see also the native americans drafted into the cause. If you really belive that the best way to organize this continent for the betterment of the human race is as a mostly unoccupied wilderness roamed by bands of scalping half-frozen tribal huntergatherers howling at the moon and nomadic farmers who live and die to a mean age of 20-something then I have a suggestion for you. Go to your closest Indian reserve and hand over the keys to to your car, house and other possessions to the tangental relatives of some of these people and get back to the slums of europe. Quick ! Otherwise: Get off your soapbox.
 

dong20

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Of course the past matters. Both as it was and as it is understood in the minds of those living. Past is prologue. Tidy of you to accept the importance of the past, then disregard it when it is unsuitable for your arguments or present mood.

Who is doing that?

My brief devolution into the murderous history of those fighting under the black flags of Islam was instigated by the uncritical implication by a poster here that Sultanic Turkey had been a light of goodness and understanding to the world.

The Ottoman empire especially was indeed pretty barbaric when considered in a modern context, but by contemporary standards perhaps a little less so.

Some have claimed as north of 300 million killed and as many more enslaved or forcibly converted at the hand of these "Sons of Allah" over 1400 years of warfare. It's a signifigant portion of the human race. But I'm supposed to ignore this as unPC ? Dismiss that mass murder and genocide may in point of fact be a contigous, integral and ongoing part the history of Islam ? (and yes a similar history of christianity is possible)

You seem to have been quite specific about Islam but provided only a passing wave to the documented atrocities perpetrated in the name of Christianity and others, so lets fill in some blanks. Of course these figures are impossible to verify with certainty, but that's true in general terms, Islamic atrocities included.

I read 270 million but why quibble. It's not UnPC it's just history. Much if not most of it ancient history. The same applies to what follows of course but you can't dismiss that on those same grounds without undermining the premise of your own argument. So, can we assume both are valid for this purpose?

Of necessity and space limitations I am, regrettably, being selective and just trying to give a mere flavour of how benevolent the big R is. I've focussed primarily, but not exclusively on deaths resulting from events perpetrated by, largely involving or on behalf of Christians:

Ancient pagans - after about 350. Paganism was punishable by death. Christian Roman Emperor Theodosius (408-450) had children executed, simply because they had been playing in and around the remains of pagan statues.

In later times - in 782 Emperor Karl (Charlemagne) had 4500 Saxons, unwilling to convert to Christianity, beheaded. In 1234 when the peasants of Steding, Germany were unwilling to pay suffocating church taxes and between 5,000 and 11,000 men, women and children were slain for it. The Battle of Belgrad in 1456 resulted in 80,000 Turks being slaughtered.

The Crusades - well where to start, certainly about 100,000 Turks were killed in about 1098 and onwards, according to Christian chronicler Fulcher of Chartres on the fall of Antiochia - the Christians "did no other harm to the women found in (the enemy's) tents - save that they ran their lances through their bellies," Lovely.

60,000 killed in the capture of Jerusalam in July 1099 including Women and Children. The Battle of Askalon in August 1099 left about 200,000 'heathens' slaughtered according to contamporary reports - "in the name of Our Lord Jesus Christ".

Estimates for total fatalities by the fall of Akkon - Hotly debated but perhaps upwards of 2.5 million in the ME alone.

Middle Ages - very messy indeed. Heresy alone probably accounts for several hundred thousand, probably close to a million. Burning of witches, a few hundred thousand, about 80% women.

Wars - - 17th century: Catholics sacked the city of Magdeburg and approximately 30,000 Protestants were slain. In one church about fifty women were found beheaded.

In 1648 the Chmielnitzki massacres in Poland left an estimated 100,000 Jews slain.

Native peoples - though in fairness disease played a massive role in the death toll, for the most part said diseases arrived in the name of our Lord.

When the 16th century came to an ignoble end about 200,000 Spaniards had moved to the Americas where it's estimated that by then more than 60,000,000 natives were now dead. A total of perhaps 150 million Indians across both Americas were killed one way or another in the period of 1500 to 1900. As I said, while perhaps 60% died as a result of smallpox and other epidemics, that still leaves some 50 million killed directly by violence, bad treatment and slavery.

Recent times - Croatian Catholic camps, Jasenovac (run by a Franciscan Friar) for example. It's estimated that 300,000 - 600,000 died in these camps - mostly orthodox-Christian serbians and a substantial number of Jews. The Nazis even complained to Hitler about them, meanwhile the Pope turned a blind eye.

Rwanda, these is evidence that Catholic clergy were complicit, even in one case actively involved in the genocide that left close to 1 million dead. In some villages people will not enter Catholic churches because of this collaboration.

There are many incidents, far too many to list, some resulted in a few hundred dead, or a few thousand. I can't add them up, but surely close to 100 million, maybe more.

I'm not trying to demonise Christianity per se, to be honest it doesn't need any help from me, I'm just trying to cast your historical crtique of Islam into it's a better perspective. The events I related cover the last 1700 years or so.

And more: The (attas)turks are now a beacon of modernity and rationality in all this madness you say? I say bullshit. Except of course for the blood of a few million christian armenian dead on their hands circa 1916. That is the protection of respected minorities in Islamic society for you.

I think the most pessimistic figure was about 1.5 million. But yes, it was a horrific event, and not the first of it's kind. The estimated death toll for similar events perpetrated by 'Turks' is put at perhaps 5 million. Still, even that figure pales when compared to the Stalin engineered Ukranian famine of 1932-33 where an estimated 7 million died.

Surely the turks recognize and have tried to reconcile themselves with this great tragedy ? Oh that's right, just saying it in turkey gets you jailtime or killed.

Well, not quite but there is certainly a healthy state of denial, not necessarily sinister in motivation about the events of 1915. I don't want to make this about Turkey, it's neither the Middle East nor a particular hotbed of Islamic radicalisation.

Do I think Islam has a perhaps unparalleled legacy of violence? Yes. I also think the worst excesses of Christianity come close, for ferocity, blind ignorant malice and bigotry even if not sheer volume. In that sense I do believe raw numbers tend to be misleading.

Do I think that makes every Muslim alive today a party to that legacy? No, no more than I consider modern Germans parties to the Holocaust, or Modern Americans to blame for their ancestors treatment of Native Americans, Christians for the Inquisition and so on, ad infinitum.

Do I think the 'peaceful' majority in all religions could do a lot more to disown and try to curb the excesses of the extremists within them? - absolutely. But this isn't what I started this thread to discuss.

I started this thread to discuss the unfolding events in Lebanon, with a spin on western perception of them, not to start a world's worst religion throught history pissing contest. That may have its own merits for sure but, to be honest I don't think your mind is open enough to be entirely objective.

I see also the native americans drafted into the cause. If you really belive that the best way to organize this continent for the betterment of the human race is as a mostly unoccupied wilderness roamed by bands of scalping half-frozen tribal huntergatherers howling at the moon and nomadic farmers who live and die to a mean age of 20-something then I have a suggestion for you. Go to your closest Indian reserve and hand over the keys to to your car, house and other possessions to the tangental relatives of some of these people and get back to the slums of europe. Quick ! Otherwise: Get off your soapbox.

Did I really just read that....?
 

stretcher74

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Dong, my main intent in presenting some episodal history was to take back some of that history. Where I live we are bombarded with lies and fabrications about the history of Islam. We are told Islam ALWAYS means peace(even as it brutality and inhumanity) and Western Civilization means ONLY war and death. That it is always in the wrong. All the crimes of Islamic civilization are denied or justified away and any challenge to this PC orthodoxy (such as the assertion that after ~1000 years of warlike expansion the Muslims had some Crusades coming to them) is met with spitting fury.

As an aside: I think you've killed off more Indians than ever existed. Over the last 25 years the esitimates I've seen for the number of indigenous people at the time of Columbus has gone up geometrically. From 1 or 2 million when I was in school to 2 million to 10 to 20 and now most astonishingly to 100-150M. Am I to belive that a collection of tribal societies across the Americas supported a population as great at the United States didn't have as an industrial society untill the 1950s ? How on earth did they all eat ?

Certianly in North America with it's more primative subsistence hunter-gatherer tribes and lack of organized agriculture this seems nonsensical. More than a 2-4 million across the all the americas seems logistically very difficult.

But back to lebanon ...
 

SteveHd

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Since Lebanon as a topic seems to have gone flaccid, :smile: maybe we should widen the scope? Anyway I found an interesting flash animation, depicting a history of the middle east in 90 seconds. It's worth spending 90 seconds to watch.

Imperial History [of the middle east]
 

dong20

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Dong, my main intent in presenting some episodal history was to take back some of that history. Where I live we are bombarded with lies and fabrications about the history of Islam. We are told Islam ALWAYS means peace(even as it brutality and inhumanity) and Western Civilization means ONLY war and death. That it is always in the wrong. All the crimes of Islamic civilization are denied or justified away and any challenge to this PC orthodoxy (such as the assertion that after ~1000 years of warlike expansion the Muslims had some Crusades coming to them) is met with spitting fury.

Funny, I was never told that. But then I've always been one for finding things out for myself. Basically, people do shitty things to each other in the name of whatever is convenient at the time.

As an aside: I think you've killed off more Indians than ever existed. Over the last 25 years the esitimates I've seen for the number of indigenous people at the time of Columbus has gone up geometrically. From 1 or 2 million when I was in school to 2 million to 10 to 20 and now most astonishingly to 100-150M. Am I to belive that a collection of tribal societies across the Americas supported a population as great at the United States didn't have as an industrial society untill the 1950s ? How on earth did they all eat ?

It's a high figure but what you seem to have overlooked is this was over at least a 400 year period and covered South, Central and North America.:rolleyes:

A couple of examples.

According to Las Casas, 3 million died on Hispaniola alone between 1502 and 1540, and a further 12-15 million on the 'mainland' over the same period.

Within ten years of Cortez arriving in Mexico (c. 1519) the population fell from about 25 million to 7-8 million, in ten years...!!

Certianly in North America with it's more primative subsistence hunter-gatherer tribes and lack of organized agriculture this seems nonsensical. More than a 2-4 million across the all the americas seems logistically very difficult.

What would be nonsensical is seriously suggesting that the entire population of the American continent at any time in recorded history has ever been as low as 2-4 million...??

In the early 1500's the approximate population of North America was about 12 million, by the early 20th century the native Indian pupulation was down to less than half a million. I somehow doubt they all died celebate of old age and I haven't had time to look at birth rates and normal mortality rates even if they're available to estimate the 'extra' deaths. That's just North America.

Heading south, it's estimated by Father Bartolomé de las Casas (see above) that from a pre-Columbian population of about 100 million, the population 40 - 50 years later was 10-12 million. I make that about 90 million down, in 50 years.

Naturally it's difficult to be at all precise at this distance but I have no idea what process leads you to 'a logistically difficult' 2-4 million across the entire continent.

The biggest killer throughout this was smallpox. Introduced by nice friendly Europeans. Just to put the pox in perspective for you; estimated deaths from Smallpox in the 20th century are 300-500 million. Place that into a historical context with poor, abused societies over a period of 400 years and see what number you come to.

That number will of course, be in addition to the folk that were actively sought out and killed for whatever reason over the same period.

Clearly you have either some super douper rose tinted spectacles and/or there was some major window dressing going on in your history books.:smile:

But back to lebanon ...

Yes, hopefully I will soon get to revisit.
 

earllogjam

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Dong,

Are there any figures on how many Iraqis have been killed because of the war and the US occupation? We never hear that side of the story here in the States. It is always only how many US soldiers have been killed, I think it is about 3200 now.

I have heard that upwards of 150,000 Iraqis have been killed. If that is the case no wonder they want us out. It would also be interesting to know what percent of Iraqis have fled the country since the war. They probably don't have the infrastructure or the people to run the country anymore.
 

dong20

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Dong,

Are there any figures on how many Iraqis have been killed because of the war and the US occupation? We never hear that side of the story here in the States. It is always only how many US soldiers have been killed, I think it is about 3200 now.

I have heard that upwards of 150,000 Iraqis have been killed. If that is the case no wonder they want us out. It would also be interesting to know what percent of Iraqis have fled the country since the war. They probably don't have the infrastructure or the people to run the country anymore.

I've lost track Earl. Sorry, I have a deep love for South and Central America, having spent a lot of time there over the years and I'm afraid I got a bit carried away with the moment.:smile:

A lot of folk use and recommend this site...Iraq Body Count though I think that the civilian figures are are wildily optimistic because they really only account for specific incidents. I think doubling or even trebling that would be reasonable but I have no sound basis for that, other than common sense and other sources. I've seen figures of 30 to over 650,000.

There is so much fog and political bullshit surrounding this issue it's hard to be sure of anything other than it's far, far too many.