What about all of the good things Hitler did?

eddyabs

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What good did Hitler do? He doused himself with petrol and burned in a ditch.

Hey Mercurial, don't want to sound like a smart alec, but I must correct this, Hitler commited suicide, with cyanide (he first tested the cyanide on his dog 'blondi')... and a bullet, although it is not known which actually killed him....his personal guard removed his body (and that of his partner Eva Braun who took cyanide with Hitler) and doused them in Petrol and burned them just outside the entrance to his bunker.
 

Ethyl

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Hey Mercurial, don't want to sound like a smart alec, but I must correct this, Hitler commited suicide, with cyanide (he first tested the cyanide on his dog 'blondi')... and a bullet, although it is not known which actually killed him....his personal guard removed his body (and that of his partner Eva Braun who took cyanide with Hitler) and doused them in Petrol and burned them just outside the entrance to his bunker.

Seems I skipped a step. My bad. So someone else burned him? Well, them's the breaks.
 

eddyabs

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So someone else burned him? Well, them's the breaks.

Yeh damn right :wink:.....If anyone is interested Ian Kershaw wrote a two part comprehensive biography of Hitler..part 1 'Hitler Hubris' and part 2 'Hitler Nemesis'....if like me you are interested in what made such a maniacal force of the man, you should read these....
 

SpeedoGuy

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Yeh damn right :wink:.....If anyone is interested Ian Kershaw wrote a two part comprehensive biography of Hitler..part 1 'Hitler Hubris' and part 2 'Hitler Nemesis'....if like me you are interested in what made such a maniacal force of the man, you should read these....

And anyone who doesn't have a lot of time for reading could see the movie "Downfall" about Hitler and the Nazi regime's last days. From everything I've ever read, it seems like an accurate portrayal of the denial and hubris and madness that completely overwhelmed them at the end.
 

D_Gunther Snotpole

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I just dragged this off an online site. Mentions many of the points others have already alluded to in this thread:

In a speech on April 28, 1939, Adolf Hitler presented the following list of what he felt were his accomplishments.
"...I overcame chaos in Germany, restored order, enormously raised production in all fields of our national economy...I succeeded in completely resettling in useful production those 7 million unemployed who so touched our hearts...I have not only politically united the German nation but also rearmed it militarily, and I have further tried to liquidate that Treaty sheet by sheet whose 448 Articles contain the vilest rape that nations and human beings have ever been expected to submit to. I have restored to the Reich the provinces grabbed from us in 1919; I have led millions of deeply unhappy Germans, who have been snatched away from us, back into the Fatherland; I have restored the thousand year old historical unity of German living space; and I have attempted to accomplish all that without shedding blood and without inflicting the sufferings of war on my people or any other. I have accomplished all this, as one who 21 years ago still an unknown worker and soldier of my people, by my own efforts..."
 

Gitana Rose

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Prussian Blue,(wearing hitler shirts) under contract to the white supremacist label Resistance Records, is one of a number of extremist pop bands, such as Blue-Eyed Devils and Angry Aryans....

scarrrry!!!!:eek: wnazi25.jpg
 

viking1

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Of course Hitler himself did none of these things, it was the vision of the people working within the German government and scientific and engineering community, some of them Nazis, who were given the funding and resources to do what they did. On a purely empirical basis, German engineering and scientific achievement flourished under Hitler's regime. Much of that technology and the scientists who advanced them, were captured by the allies and used by them. Werner von Braun, a Nazi and an honorary member of the SS, came to the US and was the single most important factor in the development of the Gemini and Apollo programs. Without him we could not have had ICBMs or walked on the moon by 1969.

Not making the slightest excuse or endorsement of Hitler or the Nazis, just stating a fact.

That's just it, Hitler didn't directly do any of those things himself.
However, it was just that conditions were such that the most efficient industrial, and scientific state ever know was inside Nazi Germany.
A similar state occurred in the USSR under communism. Just look at the rocket, aerodynamic, polymer, and military technology of the Soviets.
It's different when all the people work together toward one goal, rather than against each other for the almighty dollar...
 

classyron

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That's just it, Hitler created the environment that lead to these developments, as did Stalin/Lenin in USSR. From a leadership standpoint he was almost unrivaled in his abilities.

Not to ever hold them up as models for anything, but do you think that we will ever see a leader that effective (as Hitler, Stalin, Lenin, etc) in the world again? Or has extremism completely overtaken any ability to achieve success? I look at countries like Saudi Arabia, pre-war Iraq, Iran, Syria, Jordan, etc. With abundant financial resources they still have not achieved much to further their own people and the world. Much of their population is uneducated and poor. Has it turned and has the extreme beliefs of world leaders completely overshadowed their ability to enact positive change? I mean, China is slowly becoming a capitalist society, Castro is (pardon the pun) castrated as far as influence goes, so who is left? The US, Canada, and the EU have such structured parliamentary and government systems in place that limit any one leader's ability to do much, other than declare silly wars. So, does it now take a tyrant to effect sweeping change?
 

Bbucko

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Hitler did one positive thing:

He created the personification of perfect evil, one that's never been bettered.

The good works ascribed to him were due to the energies of the German people, who have shown for the last 600 or so years what genius they bring to Western Civilization.
 

D_Gunther Snotpole

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Not to ever hold them up as models for anything, but do you think that we will ever see a leader that effective (as Hitler, Stalin, Lenin, etc) in the world again? Or has extremism completely overtaken any ability to achieve success?

You don't think that Nazi Germany was a perfect (though terrifying) model of extremism in action?
 

Ethyl

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That's just it, Hitler created the environment that lead to these developments, as did Stalin/Lenin in USSR. From a leadership standpoint he was almost unrivaled in his abilities.
Leadership should create a more productive economy as well as a safe and stable society. Even if they succeeded somewhat in the former they failed in the latter.
Not to ever hold them up as models for anything, but do you think that we will ever see a leader that effective (as Hitler, Stalin, Lenin, etc) in the world again? Or has extremism completely overtaken any ability to achieve success?
First define effective, then define success.
I look at countries like Saudi Arabia, pre-war Iraq, Iran, Syria, Jordan, etc. With abundant financial resources they still have not achieved much to further their own people and the world. Much of their population is uneducated and poor.
Communist Russia had plenty of resources but they weren't evenly distributed according to the Marxist theory they were supposedly adopting. Hardly a success there.
Has it turned and has the extreme beliefs of world leaders completely overshadowed their ability to enact positive change?
I can't see how fascism and dictatorship create positive change in the larger picture given the historical examples from which we have to draw. The autobahn is fun to drive but wasn't worth the price of millions of lives. The volkswagon beetle has been discontinued (again) and certainly isn't worth millions of lives. I'm all for innovation and invention but not at that price.
 

classyron

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Leadership should create a more productive economy as well as a safe and stable society. Even if they succeeded somewhat in the former they failed in the latter.
First define effective, then define success.
Communist Russia had plenty of resources but they weren't evenly distributed according to the Marxist theory they were supposedly adopting. Hardly a success there.
I can't see how fascism and dictatorship create positive change in the larger picture given the historical examples from which we have to draw. The autobahn is fun to drive but wasn't worth the price of millions of lives. The volkswagon beetle has been discontinued (again) and certainly isn't worth millions of lives. I'm all for innovation and invention but not at that price.

Effective: adequate to accomplish a purpose; producing the intended or expected result

Success: the favorable or prosperous termination of attempts or endeavors

You are right, from the examples that everyone gave Hitler killed 60,000,000 people to build a road and a car. What I was asking is are current extremist governments completely focused on the extremism and therefore incapable of producing anything positive for the future of their societies? Sorry you did not get that, I tried to express it as clearly as I could. My only mention of the USSR was in response to a previous poster mentioning them as further examples.

Rubi, Nazi Germany was a near perfect model of extremism, but he still was able to achieve certain things to better his people (as listed by several posters), so he had more balance than current extremists. He did it in conjunction with horribly hateful acts of genocide, but he still achieved something lasting that did benefit his people. What I was asking was whether it takes an extremist to enact such sweeping changes. I mentioned our neutered governments, and by contrast, the current state of extremist governments. Is anyone capable of that kind of change? Can our governments do so? Can the Islamic extremists do so? Does it take a madman, or group of madmen (or women) to rally their country in the way the Germans rallied from WW1 to WW2?

Whoever mentioned Prussian Blue, please, this is not a discussion of idiot white supremists, it is an attempt at discussing political/social history and the future.
 

Bbucko

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What were those energies doing just before 1933?
For better or worse, he mobilized them ... in ways good and (mostly) bad.

Wiemar Germany was on the cutting edge of art, architecture and cinema. Einstein was part of the intelligentsia and educated elite, giving German physics the lead that allowed Werner Von Braun to conceive his rockets.

German homosexuals were as out and proud in the 1920s as New Yorkers were in the 1970s. Wiemar Berlin was probably the freest place on the planet.

You'll not find me touting Bismarkian/Kaiser Imperial Germany as they were aggressors in WW1 and hardly a tolerant open society. But their submarines were far in advance of anything the allies had.

Look, the country that gave us Goethe and Nietzsche and Luther, to say nothing of Schinkel and Wagner has obviously made deep and lasting contributions to our culture.

I'm not saying that they were blameless in the atrocities of WW1 and WW2. Obviously they elected Hitler and followed him right to the edge of sanity (and beyond). But throwing out the baby with the bloody bathwater's just not right. In a few years, they might well say the same thing about GWB and those who elected him (twice).
 

viking1

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I think some here are taking these comments out of their proper context.
I'm not condoning Hitler in any way. What he did was atrocious. We all know that. I'm just saying he solidified the German people (for a while), and that allowed them to be at their best while all working together for a common goal. They were temporarily freed from the normal competition of the capitalist world. The same happened in communist Russia. No, wealth wasn't evenly distributed in the former USSR as Marxism originally intended.

It will never be under any government system on this Earth, either.
Communism failed mostly for that reason. The core group of the politburo sat back in lap of luxury and didn't touch any of the burdens with so much as their little finger. Once the people learned they couldn't better themselves no matter what, they stopped working. The USSR became a "welfare state", and collapsed. The pitfalls of socialism are obvious. Those of capitalism are also obvious. However, people do have an incentive to work at least somewhat under capitalism. Such as: if you don't work you have no food, heat, health care, etc. It's a reasonably good motivator.
The pitfall of capitalism is that everyone is working against each other for their own good. That will get worse and worse as greed takes over more and more. A few people have most of the money now, when they get all of it there will be very little for the common people. If you don't think our government is just as out of control of the common people as Nazi Germany or communist Russia, you are very wrong. We can still exercise control, but we won't due all of us "doing our own thing". It's called greed.
It will be the cause when this country does fall.

I don't know if we will ever see another setup that can bring people to a common, all working together state, or not. Something major will have to happen first. Maybe after the US economy collapses, or the that of the EU.
Possibly some leader will take Russia back into communism in the future.
Maybe a big shakeup in China. Who knows? I do think it's possible. It may happen (for a while) when we get the "one world government" after the collapse of the current capitalist socio economic system...
 

eddyabs

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The volkswagon beetle has been discontinued (again) and certainly isn't worth millions of lives. I'm all for innovation and invention but not at that price.

Not wanting to be taken out of context by another poster...(Beetle) I just want to say that I never intended to imply that the Volkswagen Beetle was worth millions of lives, but that it was and still is a beautiful looking car. I was just responding to the OP.


 

B_NineInchCock_160IQ

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Not to ever hold them up as models for anything, but do you think that we will ever see a leader that effective (as Hitler, Stalin, Lenin, etc) in the world again? Or has extremism completely overtaken any ability to achieve success?

Compared to Nazi Germany the USA is very moderate, not extreme. Extreme would be a totalitarian fascist one-party state where dissent is not tolerated and authority is not questioned. If there's something in our modern political landscape that makes us less efficient than the Nazis it is over-bloated bureaucracy and the partisanship that goes along with the binary thinking endorsed by many contemporary political pundits and strategists. Partisanship is similar to, and often accompanied by, but not necessarily the same thing as extremism.
 

viking1

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Wiemar Germany was on the cutting edge of art, architecture and cinema. Einstein was part of the intelligentsia and educated elite, giving German physics the lead that allowed Werner Von Braun to conceive his rockets.

German homosexuals were as out and proud in the 1920s as New Yorkers were in the 1970s. Wiemar Berlin was probably the freest place on the planet.

You'll not find me touting Bismarkian/Kaiser Imperial Germany as they were aggressors in WW1 and hardly a tolerant open society. But their submarines were far in advance of anything the allies had.

Look, the country that gave us Goethe and Nietzsche and Luther, to say nothing of Schinkel and Wagner has obviously made deep and lasting contributions to our culture.

I'm not saying that they were blameless in the atrocities of WW1 and WW2. Obviously they elected Hitler and followed him right to the edge of sanity (and beyond). But throwing out the baby with the bloody bathwater's just not right. In a few years, they might well say the same thing about GWB and those who elected him (twice).

Those things aside, Germany was in shambles after WWI. They were on the verge of all out civil war, and their economy was a mess. When things farther collapsed in the early thirties, the stage was set for Hitler's rise to power. The situation in Germany was desperate, and Hitler's promise of change, and his charisma was able to solidify Germany. Similar to the Russian revolution which brought Marxism and ended the Tsarist rein in Russia. Desperate situation often bring desperate solutions. Will the next of these situations bring a similar solution???
 

viking1

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Compared to Nazi Germany the USA is very moderate, not extreme. Extreme would be a totalitarian fascist one-party state where dissent is not tolerated and authority is not questioned. If there's something in our modern political landscape that makes us less efficient than the Nazis it is over-bloated bureaucracy and the partisanship that goes along with the binary thinking endorsed by many contemporary political pundits and strategists. Partisanship is similar to, and often accompanied by, but not necessarily the same thing as extremism.

But it is the same thing as greed...
 

JustAsking

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viking1,
I find a lot of wisdom in what you are saying here about capitalism vs communism, etc. I don't share your pessimism, however. In the US, there has been a healthy struggle, since the country was founded, between having a completely unregulated capitalistic economy, and a regulated one.

The economic litertarians would want all restrictions on capitalism removed. Their theory is that an unregulated economy is an extremely vigorous one and everyone benefits. As you alluded, it can be compared to a kind of economic darwinism.

The economic progressives point to the fact that an unregulated economy may benefit some people tremendously, but it ends up being very unequitable. Darwinism might be good for improving species, but don't forget that it is done on the backs of huge amounts of loss of life.

Alexander Hamilton was one to promote a capitalism with some regulation to keep it under control. Jefferson was more for an unregulated economy. Somewhere in there is a sweet spot that keeps our economy vigorous but keeps kids from eating lead paint on toys and car makers from making Pintos who gas tanks explode in a collision.

Our pendulum started swinging towards Hamilton about the time of the big anti trust legislation activity in the early part of the 20th century. It swing stopped and started back in the Jefferson direction about the time of Raegonomics. Clinton was also somewhat of an economic libertarian, so the penduluum did not stop its travel to the current extreme Jeffersonian position.

I am thinking that it will take a few nationally recognized product liability horrors before people rediscover that part of our government's role is consumer protection, etc. At that point, I expect the penduluum to start swininging back somewhat.