What about all of the good things Hitler did?

JustAsking

Sexy Member
Joined
Nov 23, 2004
Posts
3,217
Media
0
Likes
33
Points
268
Location
Ohio
Sexuality
100% Straight, 0% Gay
Gender
Male
Compared to Nazi Germany the USA is very moderate, not extreme. Extreme would be a totalitarian fascist one-party state where dissent is not tolerated and authority is not questioned. If there's something in our modern political landscape that makes us less efficient than the Nazis it is over-bloated bureaucracy and the partisanship that goes along with the binary thinking endorsed by many contemporary political pundits and strategists. Partisanship is similar to, and often accompanied by, but not necessarily the same thing as extremism.
Being somewhat of a libertarian, I have always been in favor of an inefficient government. It is one of the things that helps preserve liberty. However, extreme partisianism is not a very effective form of inefficiency, in my opinion.
 

earllogjam

Expert Member
Joined
Aug 15, 2006
Posts
4,917
Media
0
Likes
179
Points
193
Sexuality
No Response
That's just it, Hitler created the environment that lead to these developments, as did Stalin/Lenin in USSR. From a leadership standpoint he was almost unrivaled in his abilities.

Not to ever hold them up as models for anything, but do you think that we will ever see a leader that effective (as Hitler, Stalin, Lenin, etc) in the world again?

If your definition of an "effective" leader is someone who murders his rivals and kills anyone or group who opposes him, rules by intimidation and fear and has no moral compass, then yes, Hitler and Stalin were "effective" leaders just as Pol Pot was. A rather warped idea of a leader I think. Usually good leaders are looked upon with admiration and pride.

Anyhow - the legacy of Nazi Germany in modern times....

Volkswagen Motor Company- already mentioned, the first "peoples" car, the ever so popular Beetle was a Nazi invention and was a cornerstone of transforming the German economy after WWII. That huge automobile export market in the 50's and 60's was the catalyst that helped transform Germany from a war ravaged nation to the economic powerhouse it is today.

Bayer Pharmaceuticals - Yes, the phenomenally lucrative modern day pharmaceutical giant with a less than honorable past. They were an integral part of the Nazi killing machine. They invented all sorts of dubious products - Mustard Gas, Heroin, Methadone, and Zyklon B (the gas chamber pellets used at all the death camps). Many medical "experiments" were conducted by this company at Auschwitz in the name of science.

Credit Suisse - the Swiss financial giant used as a repository for Jewish blood money and Nazi fortunes looted from all whom they killed, the money was never "returned", catepulting the Swiss economy and country into being one of the most weathiest countries in the world after WWII.
 

Willy_the_Wonka

Experimental Member
Joined
Apr 9, 2006
Posts
429
Media
5
Likes
11
Points
163
Location
Orange County, CA
Sexuality
100% Gay, 0% Straight
Gender
Male
Speaking of Bayer, there's also the atrocities they committed in issuing contaminated blood plasma.......

From that link:
Bayer Documents: AIDS Tainted Blood Killed Thousands of Hemophiliacs
Thu, 22 May 2003
An examination of internal Bayer company documents by The New York Times reveals that the company was engaged in unsavory, probably criminal marketing practices. The documents reveal that Bayer continued to sell contaminated blood plasma causing thousands of hemophiliac patients to be infected with AIDS. The company continued to sell the contaminated blood in Asia for over a year when it had already introduced a safer, heated blood plasma version in the US and Europe in February 1984.
The documents examined by the Times provide evidence of unrestrained corrupt practices by a pharmaceutical industry giant. According to The Times, records suggest that the reason for continuing to sell an AIDS infected blood product, was to get rid of inventory and "the company hoped to preserve the profit margin from 'several large fixed-price contracts.'"
This previously uninvestigated case demonstrates how this industry's lies and crimes are shielded by officials at the Food and Drug Administration. The Times reports that in 1985 FDA's Dr. Harry Meyer willingly helped Bayer cover up "one of the worst drug-related medical disasters in history." Meyer suggested that the issue should be "quietly solved without alerting the Congress, the medical community and the public." This culture of accommodation continues to prevail at the FDA.
The case also demonstrates Bayer's racial elitism. Its lethal marketing policies disregard human lives. The mother of a 22 year old hemophiliac who was killed by Bayer's tainted product in Hong Kong put it this way: "they did not care about the lives in Asia. It was racial discrimination."
The Times reports that three other American pharmaceutical companies were involved in selling tainted blood plasma after a safer version existed: Armour Pharmaceutical, Baxter International and Alpha Therapeutic.
American taxpayers have awarded unprecedented, generous financial subsidies to this industry--no other has extended patent rights as does this industry. In return they have been deceived, believing that drug company officials care about alleviating suffering and improving people's health, and that the FDA protects them from tainted products. In fact, this industry has repeatedly shown that profits matter more than human lives�even less valued are the lives in underdeveloped countries.
Currently, Bayer--through its subsidiary, Bayer CropScience--is applying pressure on the Environmental Protection Agency in an effort to lower the standards for pesticide contamination. Bayer has conducted unethical human pesticide experiments and wants the EPA to accept the data from those trials. The nature and purpose of such wholly nontherapeutic experiments violate The Nuremberg Code which was adopted in 1947 to protect human beings from potentially lethal, non-medical experiments.
See: Sunday Times (UK) Bayer promoting human pesticide experiments:
http://www.ahrp.org/infomail/0103/15.php
Sunday Herald (UK)
http://www.ahrp.org/infomail/0902/09.php
See also, NYT Bayer�s tactics in marketing Baycol:
http://www.ahrp.org/infomail/0303/01.php
For additional documentation about Bayer corrupt practices see the German watchdog group, Coalition Against Bayer Dangers (CBG): http://www.cbgnetwork.org/home/Newsletter_KCB/newsletter_kcb.html

and that's only about a third of what is on that page, a reprint of a New York Times article follows.
 

kalipygian

Expert Member
Joined
Dec 3, 2005
Posts
1,948
Media
31
Likes
139
Points
193
Age
68
Location
alaska
Sexuality
100% Gay, 0% Straight
Gender
Male
Hitler did not design the Volkswagen, it was Dr. Ferdinand Porsche. It was an improvement on a 1931 design, done per Hitler's request. The Nazis built a state of the art factory and workers' village, few cars were produced until after the war, on British initiative. No private citizen got one until after the war. It was called the 'KdF Wagen' 'kraft durch freuden', 'strength through joy', an organization.

Nazis' derided others' art, theirs has in turn been derided, much was kitsch, not necessarily all. I used to be interested in some of the heroic male nude figural sculpture, such as by Arno Breker, now it mostly looks silly. Some of the fascist/deco architectural design is interesting.
I like the interior design of the Reichs Kanzlei, particularly the use of red marble. Also the Berlin Olympic Stadium, there were some interesting bridge designs.


The Peenemunde rocket research facility was amazing.

My favorite 20thc figural sculpture is from the fascist/deco/neoclassical period, at the Foro Italico near Rome. I also like Leni Riefenstahl's Olympia.
 

headbang8

Admired Member
Joined
May 15, 2004
Posts
1,618
Media
12
Likes
809
Points
333
Location
Munich (Bavaria, Germany)
Sexuality
80% Gay, 20% Straight
Gender
Male
I really wish I had a moment right now to post at length on this subject. I live in the cradle of Nazism--Munich--and have taken an interest in the period. Especially since historical reminders are everywhere; Hitler's apartment is now my local police station!
ClassyRon raises a point that should not be forgotten. The reason why Hitler could hold on to power was not just ruthlessness and secrecy. The "good" things that he did for the German people helped him garner massive popular support.

Remember, they were National Socialists, in name, at least. They gave everyone a job (though often a lousy one), and loudly touted themselves on the side of ordinary folk with talk of patriotsm, sexual abstinence, religion, and blaming the intellectuial elite for all the nation's woes. In the meantime, they courted the industrial and military elite, who may not have shared Hitler's philistinism, but were prepared to climb into bed with him. After all, the Nazi military industrial complex was very good for business, indeed.

Ah, but comparisons are odious.

Did Hitler buy the support of the German people with a booming economy? Does an empty pocket affect your moral judgement?

I"m surprised nobody has mentioned the old joke--at least he made the trains run on time. A small thing, you may argue, but such small things are often more persuasive than statements of high-minded idealism.

An expat American buddy of mine told me a joke recently. What's the diffreence between Germans and Americans? The Germans have it behind them.
 

Willy_the_Wonka

Experimental Member
Joined
Apr 9, 2006
Posts
429
Media
5
Likes
11
Points
163
Location
Orange County, CA
Sexuality
100% Gay, 0% Straight
Gender
Male
Remember, they were National Socialists, in name, at least. They gave everyone a job (though often a lousy one), and loudly touted themselves on the side of ordinary folk with talk of patriotsm, sexual abstinence, religion, and blaming the intellectuial elite for all the nation's woes. In the meantime, they were in bed withthe industrial and military elite, who thought this just fine; the Nazi military industrial complex was very good for business, indeed.

But comparisons are odious.

Did Hitler buy the support of the German people with a booming economy? Does a full belly affect your moral judgement?

I"m surprised nobody has mentioned the old joke--at least he made the trains run on time. A small thing, you may argue, but such small things are often more persuasive than statements of high-minded idealism.

An expat American buddy of mine told me a joke recently. What's the diffreence between Germans and Americans? The Germans have it behind them.


Brilliant. Thank you tons for that. And by the way, I love your shirt collection! :biggrin1: Mahalo! :biggrin1:
 

simcha

Sexy Member
Joined
Jul 16, 2007
Posts
2,173
Media
0
Likes
26
Points
268
Location
San Leandro, CA, USA
Sexuality
99% Gay, 1% Straight
Gender
Male
Anyhow - the legacy of Nazi Germany in modern times....

Volkswagen Motor Company- already mentioned, the first "peoples" car, the ever so popular Beetle was a Nazi invention and was a cornerstone of transforming the German economy after WWII. That huge automobile export market in the 50's and 60's was the catalyst that helped transform Germany from a war ravaged nation to the economic powerhouse it is today. The reason why I will NEVER own a Volkswagen. Let's not forget that Volkswagen and Mercedes-Benz used forced labor from concentration camps to their benefit and have never paid any reparations or apologized.

Bayer Pharmaceuticals - Yes, the phenomenally lucrative modern day pharmaceutical giant with a less than honorable past. They were an integral part of the Nazi killing machine. They invented all sorts of dubious products - Mustard Gas, Heroin, Methadone, and Zyklon B (the gas chamber pellets used at all the death camps). Many medical "experiments" were conducted by this company at Auschwitz in the name of science. Ah yes, good ol' Zyklon B. Also, let's not forget aspirin... However, this is another German company that's never apologized for their part in killing millions nor have they paid any reparations.

Credit Suisse - the Swiss financial giant used as a repository for Jewish blood money and Nazi fortunes looted from all whom they killed, the money was never "returned", catepulting the Swiss economy and country into being one of the most weathiest countries in the world after WWII. Ah yes, the fantasy of the so-called "Neutral" Swiss who kept Nazi gold plundered from Jews all over Europe. They have stood in the way of people getting back the wealth stolen from their relatives for over a half-century now. Switzerland still sits on Nazi gold that should rightfully be given back to Jews all over the world.

Now, I've had tons of German friends from Germany, no less. I grew up in a home that was very anti-German. I try to moderate the disgust I feel for the German atrocities of WWII so that I can look at the modern Germans who had nothing to do with these atrocities because they weren't even born with something like respect. Now, for the people who are still alive who participated in Nazi Germany, I have no sympathy at all. Jews weren't the only victims either. Let's not forget that Gypsies, Homosexual Men, and Jehovahs Witnesses died at concentration camps too, and in large numbers.
 

Love-it

Experimental Member
Joined
Sep 7, 2005
Posts
1,829
Media
0
Likes
17
Points
183
Age
34
Location
Northern California
Sexuality
100% Straight, 0% Gay
Gender
Male
Hitler's anti Jewish policy was the reason Albert Einstein left Germany in the 1930's, Niels Bohr fled Denmark in 1943 just before he was to be arrested by the Germans. If these physicists and other scientists had been embraced by Germany, Hitler could have had the first atomic bomb.
 

mrpond

Experimental Member
Joined
Mar 11, 2007
Posts
403
Media
0
Likes
17
Points
163
Location
uk
Sexuality
100% Straight, 0% Gay
Gender
Male
people will often mention the roads hitler built ( made to move his army)

others will say he promoted the family unit (more cannon fodder - his need for babies)

and others will state the economy improved under hitler ( in fact it improved indirectly without hitler's policies. ie in uk, france, usa their economies were on the up and they werent nazis - well not total nazis.
 

B_Swimming Lad

Experimental Member
Joined
May 8, 2007
Posts
692
Media
0
Likes
15
Points
163
Who cares??
Hitlers not going to go down in history as the family enthusiast who imroved the german road system.
It's so much easier to remember him as the evil, manipulating, murdering, jew hating asshole he was.
 

DC_DEEP

Sexy Member
Joined
Apr 13, 2005
Posts
8,714
Media
0
Likes
93
Points
183
Sexuality
No Response
You could go vastly in to many of the great things Hitler did with his policies and his party, such as banning smoking on public transport or giving rewards for personal achievments for the people of Germany whilst having a conservative family value in Germany.

Who cares??
Hitlers not going to go down in history as the family enthusiast who imroved the german road system.
It's so much easier to remember him as the evil, manipulating, murdering, jew hating asshole he was.
Yes, he was certainly the family-values man. That's why he never married Eva, and most importantly, that's how the Lebensborn system came into being. Can't get much more "family-values" than that.
 

joejack

Cherished Member
Joined
Dec 2, 2004
Posts
727
Media
727
Likes
326
Points
283
Location
Florida
Sexuality
50% Straight, 50% Gay
Gender
Male
Hitler united the German people by weaseling his way into power and then consolidating it by either murdering or incarcerating his political opponents. He then led his people into the abyss. Their cities were destroyed by aerial bombs and their country occupied by foreign troops. Let this be a lesson to us all. Tyrants use fear to gain power which they use to turn against their own people.
 

headbang8

Admired Member
Joined
May 15, 2004
Posts
1,618
Media
12
Likes
809
Points
333
Location
Munich (Bavaria, Germany)
Sexuality
80% Gay, 20% Straight
Gender
Male
Hitler united the German people by weaseling his way into power and then consolidating it by either murdering or incarcerating his political opponents.
Not 100% true, JJ. Hitler was legitimately elected. He actually had a gret deal of public support.

True, he incarcerated his political opponents, but with public opinion on his side.

I think it sails dangerously close to not learning from history, to dismiss all tyrants as rogue elements who hold on to power by brute force. Here is a case where the complicity of the tyrannized was crucial.

That's what makes the rise of Nazism in Weimar Germany such an important case to study, and as many remind us, never to forget.

Hitler was no Saddam Hussein or Idi Amin. If free and fair elections were held after burning down the Reichstag in 1933, the Nazis would, perhaps, have been returned. The Fuehrer was loved and revered in many circles, expecially at the grass-roots.

What made a civilised nation embrace this insanity? You're right, JJ, it was fear. But not fear of the Nazis. It was fear of the unseen, the secret Jewish conspiracy, the Communist conspiracy, the loose-living liberals, bohemians and homosexuals. Fear of the human diversity that was unleashed with the removal of the Kaiser after WWI.

It could happen again. Maybe, it gets close to it in some places.

For example, does the way the death penalty is exercised in some American states make it comparable to way fascists dealt with the gypsies? No, the scale is not the same. But is the principle any different? An absurd comparison? Or not?

If we react with outrage before we actually entertain the possibility, then we are, in the words of the famous scholar, condemned to repeat history.
 

headbang8

Admired Member
Joined
May 15, 2004
Posts
1,618
Media
12
Likes
809
Points
333
Location
Munich (Bavaria, Germany)
Sexuality
80% Gay, 20% Straight
Gender
Male
Our pendulum started swinging towards Hamilton about the time of the big anti trust legislation activity in the early part of the 20th century. It swing stopped and started back in the Jefferson direction about the time of Raegonomics. Clinton was also somewhat of an economic libertarian, so the penduluum did not stop its travel to the current extreme Jeffersonian position.
JA, have I told you lately that I love you?
 

joejack

Cherished Member
Joined
Dec 2, 2004
Posts
727
Media
727
Likes
326
Points
283
Location
Florida
Sexuality
50% Straight, 50% Gay
Gender
Male
Hitler became Chancellor with support of conservative parties. He later turned on them and even members of his own party were purged. You cannot deny that once he had the police apparatus under his control it was literally suicide to oppose him. The NSDAP was never in the majority.
 

chico8

Experimental Member
Joined
Feb 23, 2006
Posts
727
Media
0
Likes
21
Points
163
Location
Chico
Sexuality
No Response
Rubi, Nazi Germany was a near perfect model of extremism, but he still was able to achieve certain things to better his people (as listed by several posters), so he had more balance than current extremists. He did it in conjunction with horribly hateful acts of genocide, but he still achieved something lasting that did benefit his people.

I've highlighted this bit because it's simply not true. The vast majority of the NAZI's positive accomplishments came well before the concentration camps. I would argue that it was because of those accomplishments that Hitler was able to commit the atrocities that he did.
 
  • Like
Reactions: headbang8

frizzle

Experimental Member
Joined
Dec 7, 2006
Posts
1,043
Media
0
Likes
9
Points
183
Location
London (Greater London, England)
Sexuality
Pansexual
Gender
Male
Yes, he was certainly the family-values man. That's why he never married Eva, and most importantly, that's how the Lebensborn system came into being. Can't get much more "family-values" than that.

Hitler married Eva Braun in the last days of the war. Lebensborn system wasn't even widepsread enough to even be counted as a direct arguement.
 

SpeedoGuy

Sexy Member
Joined
May 18, 2004
Posts
4,166
Media
7
Likes
41
Points
258
Age
60
Location
Pacific Northwest, USA
Sexuality
99% Straight, 1% Gay
Gender
Male
Hitler was no Saddam Hussein or Idi Amin. If free and fair elections were held after burning down the Reichstag in 1933, the Nazis would, perhaps, have been returned. The Fuehrer was loved and revered in many circles, expecially at the grass-roots.

This needs to be repeated again and again.

How else could just a few brutal thugs have convinced some 80 million Germans to follow them?