Sigh,
I don't pretend to speak for all Christians, only for myself. What I find detestable is the politically correct notion that has taken root in this country that ANYTHING to do with a Christian symbol, be it an historical religious symbol that has been on a city's seal for decades, a nativity or manger scene in a Christmas display during the holiday season, or a high school football coach that has been told it's now all of the sudden wrong for him to even be in the room listening while his players freely engage in a team prayer prior to their meal and game, this after being a part of the tradition for nearly a quarter of a century. These are just three examples, but they cover the spectrum fairly well.
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BnD, I appreciate your taking the time to outline what you do believe. I think sometimes when we are arguing abstractly it become valuless to either of us.
While I can appreciate your viewpoints and can agree with some of them, there are a few that I just see differently, and it's in terms of impact.
First, I in no way wish to limit the rights of Christians to practise their faith, I only wish to not have it imposed improperly on the rest of society. I can't see any viable argument for government agencies to be displaying symbols of any religion, the obvious implicationg being that the US is a Christian nation. We DON'T have Hindu gods on our courthouses, so I'm not picking on Christians, it's just that they are the religion that has insisted on plastering their logos on municipal buildings. It doesn't matter in the least if it's a "decades old tradition" if it limits the freedom of and from religion for others, even if they ARE a minority. See, this is where we've argued before (I think). When only the rights of the majority are respected, that is not "Liberty and justice for all", and that's wrong. Where there is a majority of one party/mangled/with/religion in the house, senate and presidency, that is not "fair and balanced" and the rights of those in the minority party are not being respected at all, not even a little bit. This is the problem with majority only rules, the rights of the minorites are not just diminshed, they are destroyed.
What's NOT fine is the fact that our government is now involved to a minute degree in our personal lives and that is to the disgrace of us all.
I have challenged the board several times to show me how this administration is fiscally conservative, or reducing government, and I've gotten no response at all. The reason is obvious, at least to me, it is not really Republican at all! Those are the things that republicans say are earmarks of what they believe in, so what's the buzz?
So what does almost every person I talk to say when I ask them what they like about this administration? "Christian" is the only answer I get, and it infuriates me. Government has NO FUCKING BUSINESS being determined based on religion. bush should NOT be able to appoint a supreme court justice based on the fact that she's a Christian fundamentalist. We the people had NO business at all even considering any person's religion as any part of their qualifying for a position in government, NONE at all! Our forefathers are rolling in their graves, but we don't care. We just ignore the past and egotistically think we can make the same mistkes and expect different results. Insanity.
You see, I really am a conservative in many senses. I am incensed that we are worrying about decades old traditions more than our Constitution! Would you object to just starting fresh, with the documents of our government structure and adhere to it is it was intended at the time?
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Freddie:
First, the poor football coach that can't pray with his team. This is not being reported accurately. Any orgaization can be on a high school campus that is not terrorist or designed for the sole purpose of distrupting the campus what ever meams available.
The Fellowship of Christian Athletes can have the coach as their sponsor and they can pray all they want to as part of their club. What the coach can't do is have the WHOLE team pray together under his direction. If a group of boys want to pray and invite him to pray with them, certainly the coach can do so. The criteria is that the coach in no way uses his position to "encourage" team members to be a part of a team prayer. Prayer can't be initiated as part of a school function. Clubs at the school are a different matter.
About Christian symbols in public places. The courts have sent mixed symbols. The key is the purpose of the symbol and how it came to be displayed. If its main purpose is to encourage a particular religion than it is not legal.
During the holidays all the symbols are usually OK provided they are ALL present. Several displays that show Santa, the Christ Child, Hanakah, etc. would be constitutional.
It would be unconsittutional to study the belief system of every major culture EXCEPT the HEBREWS. It would be unconstitutional to only study the belief system of the HEBREWS as well.
It takes some common sense which seems to be laking lately here in America.
And Jana, what is liberal and what is conservative? You make a good point. You are constitutionally conservative when it comes to the understanding of the intent of the Founders in writing the Constitution.
The religious right can disagree all they want about this issue, but it is very clear what the Founders intended. That doesn't make the Founders right. But if we are going to claim that our position is based on the Founders beliefs, then we need to correctly state what the Founders wrote and believed.
There is no way we can use the writings of George Washington, John Adams, Thomas Jefferson or Benjamen Franklin to support the inposition of a theocratic state.
For the record, I consider you. Jana. to be Christian. No, not completely orthodox and certainly not fundie. But you make it clear that you follow the teachings of Jesus. You may follows others as well. That is fine. But as far as I am concerned you meet the criteria to call yourself Christian. A Christian is a person who follows the examples and beliefs of Jesus. You yourself have said you do.
