What constitutes "cheating"?

Wonderboy

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If we were in a relationship, I would like for her to not kiss other guys...I mean the odd kiss I may perhaps be able to deal with but exchanging numbers etc, showing intent to stray is something I wouldn't condone.

If for some strange reason we had agreed to 'see other people' then I wouldn't have a problem. But then again, seeing other people defeats the purpose of a relationship.

Cheating is bad, but lying is worse. Coming clean is better than deceiving. Either way though, if I were cheated on, it would be a strain on the relationship. Since I seem to think of women as possessions, in the old fashioned sense. In that the jewel that I covet would be tainted were she to fall into the hands of another.

And dirty diamonds aren't worth shit yo!

To answer the question, betraying your partner, physically (touching, sexing, kissing) or via SMS or email etc is cheating in my eyes.

Not being loyal to whatever standards and expectations you have of the relationship is 'cheating'. Maybe people should set out their intentions and hopes for a relationship in the beginning then everyone knows where they stand...
 

B_Stronzo

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Wonderboy said:
Not being loyal to whatever standards and expectations you have of the relationship is 'cheating'. Maybe people should set out their intentions and hopes for a relationship in the beginning then everyone knows where they stand...

Thanks Wb.

It's these very standards and expectations we're getting at establishing without a variable. I could never have done so in the beginning however since I wasn't quite sure all that while ago where the thing was headed. (or for that matter how great that "head" would be:tongue: )

Who said that?:33:

DC_DEEP said:
Strip him down and lick him all over...

I see the video cam in our room is working rather well.:cool:
 

D_Elijah_MorganWood

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Stronzo, you've been with your partner (I think) about as long as I've been with mine. The honeymoon lasts a few months to the first year and a half or so and then we settle into day to day life. That transition is the second critical period for relationships. The first is the initial coupling. The third is the "7-year itch" phenomena which can happen much earlier or in fact later than that benchmark. Many people (breeders too) want to recapture that initial spark and don't know how to put it into words so they do things they wouldn't normally do.

My point is, if you're set on monogamy, there will be times that it takes real dedication. I've had my own temptations and I came really close with one guy but didn't do it. It was someone I once dated and I already knew the sex would be amazing. During the whole thing, I reflected back on my previous relationship with someone who wasn't monogamous and didn't really believe in it. I thought of the hurt he caused me and then thought of what a sweet, tender, wonderful guy my partner was and how hurt he'd be if I went through with it. After I walked away and was in my car driving home, I was relieved I hadn't done it. In my eyes, it would be desecration.

At some point, we usually voice our beliefs on this subject of monogamy. The two (or more) parties involved need to ALL agree on the rules or someone will be deeply hurt. I'm not built to have sex outside my relationship and have discussed this at length in previous threads.

Best of luck Stronzo. I think you already know the answer. This is more common than you think.
 

madame_zora

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I am always impressed when I see someone willing to carefully examine their own selves and reasons for doing things. This one thing separates the people I'd want to know from the people I don't care to know.

I've never made it to nine years in a relationship, so clearly the two of you have something very special. For me, personally, I think it would be difficult to have ALL your needs met by one person, but for many people that is the very thing which brings them joy. DC said earlier that having an agreement in advance of how much to share and in what circumstances provides him a clearer roadmap, but we all know that for many of us such roadmaps don't exist, so we must face these issues as they arise.

At the very least, this will give the two of you an opportunity to review what you feel is important in your committment. At the most, it could be a platform from which to grow and expand your relationship, whether or not you choose to "open the boundaries" to any extent.

I join the others in wishing you well in your talk.
 

scanjock8

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some great remarks on this thread.

what seems to matter most is being comfortable with whatever relationship parameters you and your partner agree upon, which requires a realistic understanding of your own expectations--not always easy when you've been sucked into the love vortex of a new relationship. ahhh, blissful ignorance sure is easy when you're consumed with yearning hot sex and already planning your first weekend getaway as a couple for even more hot sex. i love all of that! God, i'm a hopeless romantic. and a glutton for punishment.

but i've learned a few things over the years through personal experience and by observing other couples--and i know i can't do open relationships. wish i could, but i can't. my irrational emotional side will always beat out my pragmatic side. i was good friends with a couple that figured jealousy or anger wouldn't be a problem--which was short-lived until each of them wanted to fuck me to get revenge on the other--messy. i know other couples with very functional, trusting open relationships--they know the rules and play by them.

my version of "open" is a bit different, but does have wiggle room (i'm used to getting shit from friends all the time on this, so feel free to rant).

strive to never stray. communicate needs constantly--sexual, emotional, social, financial--anything goes

if an isolated event with another person should occur, and you know in your heart ending our relationsihp over what happened would be devastating, DO NOT TELL ME. manage your own guilt knowing i would forgive you if you asked me to anyway.

if you have an ongoing affair, find yourself unable to resist a different relationship--HAVE THE COURAGE TO END OUR RELATIONSHIP. DO NOT ASK ME TO FORGIVE YOU, BECAUSE I WILL FOR ALL THE WRONG REASONS.
 

Mumzi

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Only you know your partner. You certainly sound like you would never want to hurt him.
Would he have been hurt if you had slept with that person?
There is the issue of trust; freely given in the beginning, but very hard to earn back when it is lost.

We can never go back and relive a moment, and yet sometimes we do things for a few moments or hours of pleasure-only to spend months or years wishing we hadn't made the choice that we did.
Maybe a choice that was thrilling at the moment, but also a choice that will hurt someone you love, and possibly weaken the foundation of a relationship you cherish.

You know... we all know that sex with someone who is new is going to have some sparks.

I don't think this is as much about cheating or sex; it is about love
and not hurting this person because you love him.

When you described your feelings for him, I smiled. It sounds like the kind of love and relationship many people wish they had.
If you have it, nurture it, protect it. Enjoy it. :)
 

DC_DEEP

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I have known too many couples who claimed to each other that they were being exclusive, because they thought "that's how things are supposed to be for two people who love each other." But they both enjoy a little fun on the side. It always ends up pushing them apart. I think some of these couples would have survived much better had both parties been honest with each other, and decided to have an open relationship. But I think that what it usually boils down to (and this goes for straight, gay, and lesbian couples pretty much universally) is that "have your cake and eat it too" attitude. They want their partner to "be faithful", but they want to sneak around occasionally. It's funny, the ones who have several "affairs" under their belt are usually the ones who throw the biggest fit if they find out their partner "cheated." Again, honesty - in thought and in action - is the best policy. If there are perhaps too many temptations out there that are just too good to resist, perhaps the exclusive relationship is not the right one.

The above was in general, Stronzo, not directed at you. I know you will work out the best situation for your relationship, whatever that might be.
 

D_Sheffield Thongbynder

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I have discussed my views in PM's with you, Stronzo, so my remarks are not meant to be directed to you.

The issue of monogamy or faithfulness in relationships or whatever you want to call it still puzzles me despite some edifying PM's with DC. I have been in a monogamous relationship with the same woman for fifteen years and never considered straying; nor has she, I am confident. It is not some societal construct that determines what I do; my personal ethics and needs do. I suppose I could be criticised for embracing situational ethics, but I don't see it that way. If a couple wants to introduce others into their sexual activity, that is a personal decision based, I would hope, on candid discussions. It is nobody else's business what goes on in anyone else's sex lives. Nevertheless, I still think straying, even when it's mutually agreed upon, increases the risk of damage to the relationship if sex is an expression of love and not simply a physical act. This is one time I hope I am wrong because my best friends routinely visit sex clubs, and I would hate to see something as transitory as casual sex undermine their relationship. This is rambling. Obviously I am working through this issue in an attempt at personal clarification. Stronzo has already done that, I think, as have the other posters here. A good thought provoking thread.
 

DC_DEEP

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Ah, I think you hit on something there, John... sex being "a physical act" or "an act of love" is not really an either/or proposition. With my partner, it is BOTH. When we involves another person, it is strictly the physical act.

Tell me honestly, in your 15 years together, do you and your gf sometimes have "tender lovemaking" and sometimes "raw, animal sex?" That's the difference, I think. There is nothing at all wrong with your fidelity. I think the whole point of the thread is making that distinction. For two people who are wired for fidelity, forcing other people into the mix is the "cheating" part of it. For two people who are not wired for fidelity, forcing exclusiveness into that relationship will almost certainly make it fail.
 

D_Sheffield Thongbynder

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As always, DC, you explained it clearly enough even for this slow learner to get it. Please don't spank me. :wink: I'll eventually figure it out. John

DC_DEEP said:
Ah, I think you hit on something there, John... sex being "a physical act" or "an act of love" is not really an either/or proposition. With my partner, it is BOTH. When we involves another person, it is strictly the physical act.

Tell me honestly, in your 15 years together, do you and your gf sometimes have "tender lovemaking" and sometimes "raw, animal sex?" That's the difference, I think. There is nothing at all wrong with your fidelity. I think the whole point of the thread is making that distinction. For two people who are wired for fidelity, forcing other people into the mix is the "cheating" part of it. For two people who are not wired for fidelity, forcing exclusiveness into that relationship will almost certainly make it fail.
 

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Cheating starts before any specific act...it's in the heart and mind. If at any point you find yourself unconcerned about your partner's happiness, satisfaction and well-being or you are not receiving this fulfillment yourself, you are at risk of cheating. Being at risk should be an immediate red flag. One should not wait until a specific act is committed; by then significant erosion of the relationship has occurred.
 

B_Stronzo

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Well it went well - sort of anyway.

Stronzo's partner didn't get in until nearly eleven o'clock last night since he was having supper with his bosses (was he??:33:) Yes he was since he came home with a red smudge on his forehead and a string bracelet that he must wear until it wears off of its own accord.

Digressing here.

Anyhow. Stronzo's partner knew something was up "between you and that Canadian". He said as much when I sat him down at the dining room table to tell him about my near-tryst. I told him the extent to which we got physical and he began to fucking cry. SCHMUCK I am. He looked away for a moment and asked in the most innocent way "are you going to start seeing him"?

I said "oh fuck no!"

I told him it'd be a bit difficult too since he lives 13 hours from us but beyond that I'm utterly happy where I am and in my relationship with him. "Then why'd you kiss him?" he said. I told him because it "felt good to be lusted after". I think the groping was less bothersome to him than the fact that we kissed. Actually I'm sure of it.

Again- Stronzo's partner is a man very few words and after some reassuring touching on the sofa and abject apologies on my part he said. "It's fine but if you ever do anything like that again I don't know what I'll do. I thought you and the guy just enjoyed each other's company cuz both of you could speak French" :rolleyes: I did go on (thanks DC) to ask him if he'd ever considered bringing anyone else into the relationship. He said no. I asked him if he wanted to. Again he said no. Then he asked me and I thought about it some and said "no".

This was the most telling phrase he uttered during the whole 15 minute convo: "If I wanted to be with someone else in any way I'd never have commited myself to you now would I? But I gotta tell you your timing stinks. Wasn't that supposed to be our anniversary?"

Okay. Now I felt truly reptilian.

Then he said this: "if something happened to you I'd never be with anyone again" (yeah suuuure....) But he believes it since I pressed him on the statement. But I will say that in that half hour we were able to establish that neither of us (of intent) wants anyone else physcially. I have two intimate friendships and Stronzo's partner is fine with them. We discussed it. And Stronzo's partner is very close to his Indian boss. He even speaks dialect "gujarati" (sp?) with the family. So neither begrudges the other those connections.

But the sex thing has to be monogamous. And that's fine. Guess the only men we'll be inviting into our bed is the boys of "Bel Ami" ... :cool:

Stronzo's partner told me he's never as much as thought another man in these nine years and I believe he believes that. He was so hurt at first by what I told him that I sense had he really done anything that would have been the perfect opportunity to say so. He's wonderful to look at and I see how many people (both male and female) look at him yet he remains amazingly unaware of it.

Sorcerer? Your input was superb. There are many parallels. I once too considered "doing it" anew with an ex who was great sex and a rotten person and recall triumphantly driving home from our one meeting after the fact thinking I'd made the right decision. Thanks for giving me a window into your own situation.

mz? Thanks for your input too.. it was good to have this amazing variety of takes on the thing. COLJohn and I have had considerable pm discussion about it and I have grown to respect one thing he said "you have wonderful thing going. Don't do anything to ruin it" Sage advice. :smile:

I'm afraid much as I'd wish I was more open-minded (or as my mum would say "modern") about this issue that I'm a bit provincial (as is my partner) when it comes to sexual monogamy.

**aside to dong20. Think it's time I sent Vlad packing?:eek:
 

DaveyR

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Stronzo said:
Well it went well - sort of anyway.

Stronzo's partner didn't get in until nearly eleven o'clock last night since he was having supper with his bosses (was he??:33:) Yes he was since he came home with a red smudge on his forehead and a string bracelet that he must wear until it wears off of its own accord.

Digressing here.

Anyhow. Stronzo's partner knew something was up "between you and that Canadian". He said as much when I sat him down at the dining room table to tell him about my near-tryst. I told him the extent to which we got physical and he began to fucking cry. SCHMUCK I am. He looked away for a moment and asked in the most innocent way "are you going to start seeing him"?

I said "oh fuck no!"

I told him it'd be a bit difficult too since he lives 13 hours from us but beyond that I'm utterly happy where I am and in my relationship with him. "Then why'd you kiss him?" he said. I told him because it "felt good to be lusted after". I think the groping was less bothersome to him than the fact that we kissed. Actually I'm sure of it.

Again- Stronzo's partner is a man very few words and after some reassuring touching on the sofa and abject apologies on my part he said. "It's fine but if you ever do anything like that again I don't know what I'll do. I thought you and the guy just enjoyed each other's company cuz both of you could speak French" :rolleyes: I did go on (thanks DC) to ask him if he'd ever considered bringing anyone else into the relationship. He said no. I asked him if he wanted to. Again he said no. Then he asked me and I thought about it some and said "no".

This was the most telling phrase he uttered during the whole 15 minute convo: "If I wanted to be with someone else in any way I'd never have commited myself to you now would I? But I gotta tell you your timing stinks. Wasn't that supposed to be our anniversary?"

Okay. Now I felt truly reptilian.

Then he said this: "if something happened to you I'd never be with anyone again" (yeah suuuure....) But he believes it since I pressed him on the statement. But I will say that in that half hour we were able to establish that neither of us (of intent) wants anyone else physcially. I have two intimate friendships and Stronzo's partner is fine with them. We discussed it. And Stronzo's partner is very close to his Indian boss. He even speaks dialect "gujarati" (sp?) with the family. So neither begrudges the other those connections.

But the sex thing has to be monogamous. And that's fine. Guess the only men we'll be inviting into our bed is the boys of "Bel Ami" ... :cool:

Stronzo's partner told me he's never as much as thought another man in these nine years and I believe he believes that. He was so hurt at first by what I told him that I sense had he really done anything that would have been the perfect opportunity to say so. He's wonderful to look at and I see how many people (both male and female) look at him yet he remains amazingly unaware of it.

Sorcerer? Your input was superb. There are many parallels. I once too considered "doing it" anew with an ex who was great sex and a rotten person and recall triumphantly driving home from our one meeting after the fact thinking I'd made the right decision. Thanks for giving me a window into your own situation.

mz? Thanks for your input too.. it was good to have this amazing variety of takes on the thing. COLJohn and I have had considerable pm discussion about it and I have grown to respect one thing he said "you have wonderful thing going. Don't do anything to ruin it" Sage advice. :smile:

I'm afraid much as I'd wish I was more open-minded (or as my mum would say "modern") about this issue that I'm a bit provincial (as is my partner) when it comes to sexual monogamy.

**aside to dong20. Think it's time I sent Vlad packing?:eek:


Delighted it all worked out. You are BOTH so very fortunate. Keep working at it like you already are.
 

yhtang

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In the American TV series "Queer As Folk" - season 2 or 3, the characters Brian and Justin had some problems with their relationship.

There relationship was sort of "open" - in the end, it was agreed between the two characters that they can go out with other men and have sex, but NO KISSING.

It would appear that to the writers of the show, kissing tantamounted to cheating.

My 2 cent's worth of observation - random copulation does not seem to fall within the boundaries of cheating, but kissing does. Why? I would guess the difference lies in the perceived intimacy of the action. Dare I evoke the legal concept of "mens rea"?