What constitutes life ?

[Captain Elephant]

I think some of you are confusing life with living, and those are two separate concepts.

Life is a spark. It's what separates a bug from the rock he sits upon. (Yeah, I've had my share of intelligence-heightening vegetation as well).

Everything alive has this spark. The spark can be removed from the flesh. Here's where religion comes in - but the spark can never be extinguished. Don't know where the spark goes; haven't smoked enough to figure out that far yet. Maybe it returns to its creator, maybe it inhabits another flesh.

That's about the extent of my religion. I respect life in all its forms (except for that damn fly on my cheese right now) since all sparks are essentially the same.

Now, how we manipulate that our flesh with that spark within, well, that's when you talk about living. And that has nothing to do with religion at all.

Spark on.

 

[Irish]

I think some of you are confusing life with living, and those are two separate concepts.

Life is a spark. It's what separates a bug from the rock he sits upon. (Yeah, I've had my share of intelligence-heightening vegetation as well).

Everything alive has this spark. The spark can be removed from the flesh. Here's where religion comes in - but the spark can never be extinguished. Don't know where the spark goes; haven't smoked enough to figure out that far yet. Maybe it returns to its creator, maybe it inhabits another flesh.

That's about the extent of my religion. I respect life in all its forms (except for that damn fly on my cheese right now) since all sparks are essentially the same.

Now, how we manipulate that our flesh with that spark within, well, that's when you talk about living. And that has nothing to do with religion at all.

Spark on.

You should really check out Transformers.

 

[B_dumbcow]

I remember learning about all living organisms feeding on negative entropy. It was a few years ago... but I think it was something along the lines of (all) living things being able to transfer things from a lesser 'order' into more 'order', up to a maximum entropy (skin cells etc.). that always confused me.


And there is the slightly flimsy definition of all living things having the ability to:

Grow
Carry out homeostatis
Respond to outside influences
Evolve / Adapt
Reproduce
Consume energy and transfer it (metabolism?)
*Inserts seventh forgotton one here*

Then there are the domains of life, which have canged over time and are disputed... these are fungi, protoctista, plants, animals, bacteria, archea?.... I think...




^ It's been a few years, so that won't be accurate or anything.


I'm confusing myself now.



Moo.

 

[Irish]

I've always disliked the idea that something must be able to reproduce. Surely a sterile/infertile creature is still alive.

 

[B_dumbcow]

I've always disliked the idea that something must be able to reproduce. Surely a sterile/infertile creature is still alive.

That's why I said that list is flimsy... I totally agree. It is hard to find a mule which can reproduce (although they are out there) and of course most mules are alive.

 

[Drifterwood]

I don't have a problem with objective experience. Is it me? Isn't watching the Olympics for example an objective experience? When I think about myself and what I am doing, I try to do it objectively.

I still think death has something to do with it. Skeletons may still exist, but the person was alive. It's just a practical empiricism.

 

[Penis Aficionado]

RE: The discussion on Tesla

I know very little about him, other than that some of my friends who are kind of nutjobs (of the "9-11 was an inside job" and "the world is controlled by the illuminati" variety) idolize him. I've heard that a friend of these friends has converted his garage into something called a Tesla Coil, which he claims can cure cancer.

So I read this discussion with some interest, but I don't know the background. Could you recommend a good book about Tesla?

 

[Irish]

I've heard that a friend of these friends has converted his garage into something called a Tesla Coil, which he claims can cure cancer.

Tesla Coils are amazing and all, but... that's certainly not what they do.

I'm not sure of any one particularly amazing biography of him, but check your local library.

 

[Phil Ayesho]

I remember learning about all living organisms feeding on negative entropy. It was a few years ago... but I think it was something along the lines of (all) living things being able to transfer things from a lesser 'order' into more 'order', up to a maximum entropy (skin cells etc.). that always confused me.

Entropy is one of the most misunderstood of concepts.
Because the media can not deal with any concept that will not fit on a bumper sticker... and due to some really flawed methodology by a guy named Boltzman.... this idea that entropy means that everything tends toward disorder has gotten into the cultural zeitgeist and can't seem to be dislodged.

Entropy does not necessarily increase disorder.

The experiment that characterized entropy in this way was almost immediately shown to be bullshit, and discounted...
But because Boltzman basically equated entropy with Murphy's law... it was an idea that lay-people have embraced.


All entropy says is that energy will DISPERSE across a potential and will tend to disperse in whatever manner maximizes the rate of dispersal.
And That is ALL it says.


If the rate of energy dispersal can be increased thru increasing the complexity or order of a system... then that is what entropy will do...
If disorder increases the rate of dispersal, then that is what entropy will do.


So- for example, in the presence of gravity, and with a source of heat, like a flame, entropy will cause air to heat, rise, spread cool and fall... creating an orderly convective loop.

THis is the emergence of order from disorder... and it is driven by entropy because a convective loop turns out to be the fastest, most efficient way to disperse the energy of the flame.

LiFe is favored by entropy because living things disperse energy far more efficiently than any other process. The earth is chock full of compounds that have latent energy... and the sun and the earth's internal heat are constantly pumping more energy in.

Entropy wants to disperse this energy.

Living things take compounds, and available energy, and create New, often more complex compounds... but these more complex compounds actually have a LOWER energy state than the parts of which they are made.

So- entropy is perfectly happy to TRADE a higher order for a lower energy state, or for more efficient dispersal of energy overall.

Living things convert an awful lot of latent energy into pure heat.
Most living things born die relatively quickly, providing fuel for the living things that live a little longer...
Ultimately ALL living things dies and decay- releasing even more energy.

Order emerges from entropy wherever order increases the dispersal of energy.

 

[Shelby]

You ought to be a teacher. You have a gift for simplifying and explaining.

 

[Phil Ayesho]

I've always disliked the idea that something must be able to reproduce. Surely a sterile/infertile creature is still alive.

A good point.. I should clarify.... propagation need not be sexual...and need not be reproductive in terms of children.

Many plants propagate by cloning... and single celled organisms propagate thru division.

Keep in mind that every living thing, even a mule, is constantly re-producing its OWN cells and tissues.

Because your CELLS propagate, even a sterile individual can be discerned as a living thing.

When your cells cease making new cells, its because you are no longer living.

 

[Drifterwood]

You ought to be a teacher. You have a gift for simplifying and explaining.

It takes more energy to produce a steak, than you get from eating it.

 

[Llbaker]

Come on, man. Have you ever met a scientist? They are the crankiest most independent minded people you have ever met. They get up every morning wanting to get to work and either prove a completely new idea or at least prove the other guys in their field are wrong. If they are successful at that, they get a name for themselves and more grant money. If there were anything to suggest that bions were some universal force between life and non-life, you can bet your bippy that scientists around the world would be racing each other to establish the veracity of that and find a commerical application.

Hmmmm! Sure some scientists are like that, but most are like lawyers, "mouth pieces" for the richest and most powerful.

Bions are pretty far-fetched, but something is going on with biological energy in sex.

 

[halcyondays]

Viruses are life even though they have zero metabolism even after infecting a host cell. They hijack its metabolism and reproduce themselves.

If it's biochemical and reproduces/replicates it is life. Prions anyone?

 

[Llbaker]

Viruses are life even though they have zero metabolism even after infecting a host cell. They hijack its metabolism and reproduce themselves.

If it's biochemical and reproduces/replicates it is life. Prions anyone?

Viruses are genes stripped of nucleus and cell or progenitor of same?

 

[Llbaker]

If it's biochemical and reproduces/replicates it is life. Prions anyone?

Life must be a delusion of a swarm of interacting replicators.

When robots start replicating themselves in factories will they be alive or were they already?

 

[Llbaker]

It takes more energy to produce a steak, than you get from eating it.

All processes, I do believe, are less than 100% efficient.

 

[Llbaker]

Order emerges from entropy wherever order increases the dispersal of energy.

I thought part of a system can experience increased order, but at the expense of increased disorder for the whole system. For instance, when you build something that means you order something, but at the expense of dispersed energy, destoying existing structures, etc.

Studied it, but only understood enough to pass the test.

 

[Llbaker]

Order emerges from entropy wherever order increases the dispersal of energy.

You seem to be postulating that entropy if causal in some way. I thought it was just a description of what happens.

 

[Phil Ayesho]

I thought part of a system can experience increased order, but at the expense of increased disorder for the whole system. For instance, when you build something that means you order something, but at the expense of dispersed energy, destoying existing structures, etc.

Studied it, but only understood enough to pass the test.

The guy who coined the description of Entropy as increasing disorder was proven wrong within 3 months of his making that up- unfortunately- the press caught onto it and nowadays even many scientists suffer from the delusion that entropy is a measure of disorder... its not. It is a measure of the dispersion of energy.
Energy- and because information is a form of energy- disperses. This dispersion can look like disorder.
For example, take two adjacent rooms that each have a different atmosphere- say one if full of oxygen, and the other is full of nitrogen.
Scientists consider the two rooms- each with its own collection of one kind of element- to be "ordered"- but open a door between those two rooms and the gasses will start to blend into each other, until Both rooms have a randomized mixture of both kinds of atoms.

This is considered "disorderly" But what it really is is simply dispersion of energy.
Misunderstanding entropy as 'disorder' makes it hard to understand a universe that clearly shows a LOT of order that was not there at the beginning.

Organic chemistry is far more complex and ordered than the primordial matter of the post big bang.
The periodic table of elements shows that the Hydrogen and helium that used to be ALL the matter in the universe has become a highly ordered collection of unique elements with complex and surprising characteristics.

Ergo- since entropy always increases- it simply can not be "disorder" or the universe would have become MORE disordered since the big bang.

But if entropy is a measure of dispersion of energy- and energy is simply viewed as dispersive in nature- then there is not problem with the natural world becoming more ordered. Energy spreads out as much as it can- while MASS concentrates as much as it can due to gravity.

Gravity, therefore, brings matter together- compresses and heats it. But its energy is always dispersing... and when energy is more efficiently dispersed by order than by disorder- then order will emerge.

A convective loop emerges because the energy in a liquid is dispersing- within a gravity field that stratifies the liquid by density.
But a convective loop disperses energy far more efficiently than the liquid just sitting there, unmoving.

Order does emerge, at all scales of the universe.