What do trump people think of his affair(s)?

[chicagosam]

No one is being forced to sell cakes. If you don't want to sell cakes, don't open a cake shop.

And if you do sell cakes and refuse customers based on your religious biases, don’t whine when your business suffers or fails when other customers find out and patronize other bakeries and avoid yours. If your choice is to refuse service, you also accept that no one is required to buy from your business. You’ve made a conscientious choice for religious freedom risking your financial well-being.

 

[IntactMale]

I didn’t say you were liberal. I pointed out how one form of discrimination is acceptable in their eyes, while the other isn’t.

Well, the point is still irrelevant in this discussion. I'm not going to claim that liberals do or don't do anything, I don't really care. But its pretty obvious that of all the people discriminated in the US the straight white men are the ones suffering the least. I don't think it fair to say that anyone thinks its acceptable, even if it is a lower priority.

 

[malakos]

Were you expecting me to change the law for you? I don't have that power. The fact is that the law is the law. If you think its wrong try to change it, I think you'll find significant opposition.

No, I was aiming for having a discussion of what the issue actually constitutes (as it was originally claimed, erroneously, that this is an issue of who is "allowed to have cake") and whether there is merit to the contention that businesses have a right to discriminate. Turning to what is the law is a very superficial direction to have taken these questions and I'm disappointed by it.

 

[Tight_N_Juicy]

And if you do sell cakes and refuse customers based on your religious biases, don’t whine when your business suffers or fails when other customers find out and patronize other bakeries and avoid yours. If your choice is to refuse service, you also accept that no one is required to buy from your business. You’ve made a conscientious choice for religious freedom risking your financial well-being.

Yes, my thoughts exactly.

It's just not a smart way to run a business. If someone has a sincere issue providing services to specific people, perhaps they should seek employment doing something where they aren't required to serve anyone.

There are lots of ways to make a living.

 

[IntactMale]

No, I was aiming for having a discussion of what the issue actually constitutes (as it was originally claimed, erroneously, that this is an issue of who is "allowed to have cake") and whether there is merit to the contention that businesses have a right to discriminate. Turning to what is the law is a very superficial direction to have taken these questions and I'm disappointed by it.

I wasn't involved when the cake discussion started, so I don't know what the original point was. I saw posts complaining that people were being forced to do their jobs when they didn't want to.

 

[malakos]

And if you do sell cakes and refuse customers based on your religious biases, don’t whine when your business suffers or fails when other customers find out and patronize other bakeries and avoid yours. If your choice is to refuse service, you also accept that no one is required to buy from your business. You’ve made a conscientious choice for religious freedom risking your financial well-being.

It would be their right to whine.

I would far prefer seeing bakeries go bankrupt due to punishment by market forces than the State force them to act against their conscience.

 

[Wilson_90]

Well, the point is still irrelevant in this discussion. I'm not going to claim that liberals do or don't do anything, I don't really care. But its pretty obvious that of all the people discriminated in the US the straight white men are the ones suffering the least. I don't think it fair to say that anyone thinks its acceptable, even if it is a lower priority.

Straight white men are suffering the least?

Oh my god

 

[IntactMale]

Straight white men are suffering the least?

Oh my god

Do you care to make an argument to the contrary? As a straight white man living in the country we are discussing I think I'm more at liberty to discuss the issue than you are.

 

[malakos]

Looks like it's time for a round of Oppression Olympics!

 

[Wilson_90]

Do you care to make an argument to the contrary? As a straight white man living in the country we are discussing I think I'm more at liberty to discuss the issue than you are.

Oh I’m not saying that they’re oppressed. But I’ve sufficiently demonstrated in the past that they’re the only people that you can legally discriminate against.

 

[IntactMale]

Oh I’m not saying that they’re oppressed. But I’ve sufficiently demonstrated in the past that they’re the only people that you can legally discriminate against.

I wasn't really talking about oppression, but that's a moot point. You cannot legally discriminate against straight white men in the US. I'm sure it happens sometimes, but I don't have any examples in my experience as a straight white man living in the US. I think straight white men are far less likely to take issue with being discriminated against in the rare case when it happens.

I've never been refused service or really experienced anything I would describe as discrimination. If I had I probably wouldn't care that much depending on the circumstances. I'm sure if I were experiencing it on a daily or weekly basis my opinion on that would change.

I don't know what other peoples experiences are. I only know that some people feel like they are discriminated against and I don't. Why would I care about injustices potentially against me, which I never experience, compared to someone who claims to actually experience it. I am the more direct representation I have of a straight white male living in the US. If I don't experience discrimination then someone who does even a little is effected by it more than I am.

 

[Wilson_90]

I wasn't really talking about oppression, but that's a moot point. You cannot legally discriminate against straight white men in the US. I'm sure it happens sometimes, but I don't have any examples in my experience as a straight white man living in the US. I think straight white men are far less likely to take issue with being discriminated against in the rare case when it happens.

I've never been refused service or really experienced anything I would describe as discrimination. If I had I probably wouldn't care that much depending on the circumstances. I'm sure if I were experiencing it on a daily or weekly basis my opinion on that would change.

I don't know what other peoples experiences are. I only know that some people feel like they are discriminated against and I don't. Why would I care about injustices potentially against me, which I never experience, compared to someone who claims to actually experience it. I am the more direct representation I have of a straight white male living in the US. If I don't experience discrimination then someone who does even a little is effected by it more than I am.

Uhhh yeah you can. There’s also a cafe here in Melbourne that promotes an 18% “man tax” to account for the mythical wage gap.

It’s beyond cancerous

 

[IntactMale]

Uhhh yeah you can. There’s also a cafe here in Melbourne that promotes an 18% “man tax” to account for the mythical wage gap.

It’s beyond cancerous

Well that's Australia, I don't know what your laws are there. In the US that is an illegal practice. There are some places where they have tried to do the same thing. In those cases they are either forced legally to stop the practice, or they make the additional cost optional to whatever group they are imposing it on. The additional money they receive for the higher prices, usually directed at white people of men, is typically given to charity. But forcing them to pay a higher price is illegal and businesses here do not get away with doing that.

To be fair, I've also seen this same type of practice being directed at different groups, its not always white people and its not always men. It also usually isn't done by a real business. It's typically a drink stand or something at an event and the purpose for doing it is to raise awareness or like I said above raise more money for charity.

I personally don't like the practice. I think it sounds a lot like eye for an eye. Discriminating against one group because they have discriminated against another just makes more an more discrimination. All it does is create a bigger divide between the groups.

When you say that they promote a man tax, does that mean that men have to pay the additional cost or is it something similar to what I described? I recall reading an article about this and I don't think they were able to actually enforce the additional cost.

If Australian law doesn't protect consumers from that kind of practice, and you feel strongly about it, then you should contact your government and petition a change in laws and then vote accordingly when possible. I don't know much about Australian law so I can't comment further on that.

In any case, in the US it is illegal to charge more for a service in that scenario. I'm not really sure that there is a true equivalency between a man tax and discriminatory hiring practices for example.

 

[deleted15807]

It would be their right to whine.

I would far prefer seeing bakeries go bankrupt due to punishment by market forces than the State force them to act against their conscience.

Since when have “market forces” compelled a company to keep the environment clean and its workers safe or from it saying it’s selling you a gallon of gas when it’s really .98% of a gallon? Should a buyer bear the responsibility? If you say yes you’re full of cow manure.

Somehow “market forces” have become this invisible hand and magic wand that forces businessss to do the right thing. Never mind history shows us irrefutable evidence they do not. Somehow something that never worked before will now magically start working.

Humans better be very afraid of machine leaning and artificial intelligence as machines won’t forget past learnings nor will they believe in voodoo “market forces”.

 

[b.c.]

I just don't understand how any business owner could make the mistake of refusing to profit more than they would if they didn't have some bias against a specific group.

That's basically like saying, I don't like making money as much as I dislike this group of people. That's just a good way to stay broke. I don't get it. Money is money. Doesn't matter who it comes from.

That's because the degree of sick minded malevolence in such a people is difficult to comprehend for those who don't share that kind of MENTALITY. The kind of hate they harbor for those perceived as different is such that that they'd prefer to "cut off their own noses," to coin a phrase.

Why do you think poor and middle class conservatives, time and time again, turn out in droves to empower a political party who, by and large, have yet to do a FKNG thing for THEM?

 

[malakos]

Since when have “market forces” compelled a company to keep the environment clean and its workers safe or from it saying it’s selling you a gallon of gas when it’s really .98% of a gallon? Should a buyer bear the responsibility? If you say yes you’re full of cow manure.

Somehow “market forces” have become this invisible hand and magic wand that forces businessss to do the right thing. Never mind history shows us irrefutable evidence they do not. Somehow something that never worked before will now magically start working.

Humans better be very afraid of machine leaning and artificial intelligence as machines won’t forget past learnings nor will they believe in voodoo “market forces”.

That's apples and oranges. My remark was about community organization against discrimination, not environmental regulations. The latter has nothing to do with freedom of association.

 

[phonehome]

Like that "pizza parlor" in Indiana that to here them tell it "was forced to close" because otherwise they would "be forced" to cater a "gay wedding" Never mind that fact that at that time they could not show that they had ever even been REQUESTED to cater such a wedding or could show that any wedding anywhere had ever wanted them to cater a wedding.

And the ironic icing on the cake after they did close they or someone on their behaf opened a "go fund me page" and the rubes sent them almost a MILLION DOLLARS.

More than they would ever make selling pizza's in 100 years !!!

 

[Fuzzy_]

No. I’m still going to talk. That’s my right. I’m just not going to respond to trolls that call me names for having a different opinion.

They seem to be calling you a troll because you're, well, trolling.

Opinions are welcome in this forum.

Fuzzy was once an entitled young wuzzy who thought his opinion was the most important on earth; could never be wrong; and felt oppressed. Then Fuzzy got an education, a job, and exposure to life.

 

[Fuzzy_]

But they do want to sell cakes. It’s just that the left is trying to get the government to control the process.

It’s their right to refuse service. Go elsewhere.

Not if it's statutorily discriminatory.

 

[malakos]

Not if it's statutorily discriminatory.

Right and law may often overlap, but they are not the same thing.