What do you think are fair tax rates?

Discussion in 'Et Cetera, Et Cetera' started by Drifterwood, Nov 18, 2009.

  1. Drifterwood

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2007
    Messages:
    15,725
    Likes Received:
    386
    Location:
    Fingringhoe (GB)
    I don't want this thread to be moved and lost in "Politics", because I am interested in what ordinary non-political people have to say.

    I am thinking of all the various taxes that you may pay, both private and commercial.
     
  2. blg3floor3

    blg3floor3 New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2008
    Messages:
    205
    Likes Received:
    0
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    AZ
    I don't know, but there's too many of them. You're born, that's a tax. You live, that's a tax. You die, that's a tax. You walk down the street, that's a tax. You buy something, that's a tax. You own some land, that's a tax. You make some money, that's a tax. You get gas for your car, that's a tax. You say "buga baga didi" and that's a tax too.

    Jesus Christ, lay off the taxes already. :mad:
     
  3. Flashy

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2007
    Messages:
    8,097
    Likes Received:
    3
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    at home
    oh man...where would i start? :biggrin1::wink:

    i know i already published mine a while ago, so it probably would not help much.

    but this is only a partial list of taxes americans pay



    Accounts Receivable Tax
    Building Permit Tax
    Capital Gains Tax
    CDL license Tax
    Cigarette Tax
    Corporate Income Tax
    Court Fines (indirect taxes)
    Dog License Tax
    Federal Estate Tax

    Federal Income Tax
    Federal Unemployment Tax (FUTA)
    Fishing License Tax
    Food License Tax
    Fuel permit tax
    Gasoline Tax (42 cents per gallon)
    Hunting License Tax
    Inheritance Tax Interest expense (tax on the money)
    Inventory tax IRS Interest Charges (tax on top of tax)
    IRS Penalties (tax on top of tax)
    Liquor Tax
    Local Income Tax
    Luxury Taxes
    Marriage License Tax
    Medicare Tax
    Property Tax
    Real Estate Tax
    Septic Permit Tax
    Service Charge Taxes
    Social Security Tax
    Road Usage Taxes (Truckers)
    Sales Taxes
    Recreational Vehicle Tax
    Road Toll Booth Taxes
    School Tax
    State Income Tax
    State Unemployment Tax (SUTA)
    Telephone federal excise tax
    Telephone federal universal service fee tax
    Telephone federal, state and local surcharge taxes
    Telephone minimum usage surcharge tax
    Telephone recurring and non-recurring charges tax
    Telephone state and local tax
    Telephone usage charge tax
    Toll Bridge Taxes
    Toll Tunnel Taxes
    Traffic Fines (indirect taxation)
    Trailer registration tax
    Utility Taxes
    Vehicle License Registration Tax
    Vehicle Sales Tax
    Watercraft registration Tax
    Well Permit Tax
    Workers Compensation Tax


    Not one of these existed 100 years ago
     
  4. B_Nick8

    B_Nick8 New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2007
    Messages:
    11,912
    Likes Received:
    44
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    New York City, by way of Marblehead, Boston and Ge
    One word comes to mind: progressive.

    What I think is funny/ironic is that all taxes are tax-deductible. So, if people were really on top of these things, you could save every receipt from everything you ever bought all year and deduct the total tax amount. But who would/could?
     
  5. Flashy

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2007
    Messages:
    8,097
    Likes Received:
    3
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    at home
    my dad does..lol

    and i do that a great deal with my meal receipts, gas receipts, everything possible...

    i guess it rubbed off...

    my motto is you should do everything possible to avoid taxes within the law.

    there is a clear legal difference between tax *avoidance* and tax *evasion*

    tax avoidance is my individual duty IMO. :biggrin1:
     
  6. cock23

    cock23 New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2009
    Messages:
    190
    Likes Received:
    0
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Bristol, England
    I don't think anyone will post here and say that any sort of tax rate system is "fair" because people, being the greedy buggers that they are, will always want to pay less no matter how fair/low that tax rate is!
     
  7. Jason

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2004
    Messages:
    9,935
    Likes Received:
    643
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    London (GB)
    For taxes on individuals the big divide is between taxes on income and on expenditure.

    Income tax is the traditional mainstay. It was easy when most people did a 9 to 5 job for a company with a monthly pay cheque that could have a tax deduction at source. It also had the feature of being progressive, enabling wealth to be redistributed from rich to poor. The UK extreme was in the 1970s where the top rate of income tax was 97.5% (no doubts there that we had a socialist government). Now income tax is getting more of a problem. I have a portfolio of jobs in several countries. My UK tax form is hard work to fill in - lots of bits and pieces of income from here, there and everywhere. I think it is becoming unfair because it is les and less collectable. I think the time is going to come when income tax has to be re-examined, perhaps set as a fixed charge like the (old form) UK national insurance. I just don't see how anyone will be able to audit the multiple income streams so many people have. However the idea of most people paying a fixed sum for fixed benefits (basically health and pension) is workable.

    Taxes on expenditure are in some respects optional. If food and necessities are not taxed they really are taxes on just non-essential purchases. These are very hard to evade and easy to collect. I think these are as fair as you are going to find.

    I think the move will be towards less income tax and more expenditure tax. And actually I think that will be quite a good system.
     
  8. Drifterwood

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2007
    Messages:
    15,725
    Likes Received:
    386
    Location:
    Fingringhoe (GB)
    People earning over £150K in the UK from a regular job, will be paying a standard rate of 63% from next April, acually, there are increments from 53% from £100K. Then you get all the other taxes which Flash mentions, and some more. The irony is that the government knows that it will have no effect on the overall tax take.

    Do people think that it is fair or sensible to tax high earners like this?
     
  9. Flashy

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2007
    Messages:
    8,097
    Likes Received:
    3
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    at home
    D, as i have always said, i am a "high earner"...and i do support progressive taxation, absolutely...

    my problem has always been "where is the line"?

    my parents and grandparents were and are all high earners, and we have already gotten hit with one inheritance/estate tax when my grandparents passed...the next time we get hit, will be when my dad goes, and the bill will cause me and my mother to sell his business, which will cause many long time employees to lose their jobs.

    i will also have to sell a home that has been in my family for decades, because its value is so high now, wheras it was cheap to buy the land and build the home in the late 60s.

    -

    the new levels of taxation on high earners in both federal income tax and new "healthcare surtax" to be instituted here in the US are taking us back to the 1970s in terms of previous rates on high earners, though not as extreme.

    i watched in horror as the UK instituted the new tax on high earners (watch as all the high earning footballers flee to Spain eventually)

    the question becomes, what is the line?

    i support progressive taxation...however, i think it is "fair", that nobody, rich or poor, should have to surrender more than 25% of their yearly earnings in income tax to the federal government, as a point of principle.

    also, the estate/inheritance tax is absolutely abominable. it has already been taxed several times, and is what your family has earned through its entire lifetime. it is a true "vulture" tax IMO.



    a single person, making $600,000 a year, living in California, is going to get absolutely *smashed* in the coming years.
     
  10. Drifterwood

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2007
    Messages:
    15,725
    Likes Received:
    386
    Location:
    Fingringhoe (GB)
    I live and work in several places where capital gains tax and inhertance tax are zero. They also seem to have just as effective social sytems as the UK.

    And I agree with the "line" Flash. There has to be a point where the deal is or isn't worth it. Frankly IMO, the UK has passed that, which is why I am increasingly supportive of the US attitude.
     
  11. Flashy

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2007
    Messages:
    8,097
    Likes Received:
    3
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    at home
    i know, D... it has finally driven me over the edge. the capital gains and inheritance ones are particularly nefarious to me, and as you said, the fact that there are many countries without those particular taxes is even more infuriating. our australian friends here over the summer were all talking with us, and we came to the subject of inheritance taxes, and they were stunned to hear that the USA had them.

    Australia was smart to abolish "death duties" in 1979. now, they only pay a certain capital gains on some assets upon death.


    i can only imagine what it is like in the UK...

    that rate at 63% for 150,000+ pounds is *SHOCKING* considering the UK went through the previously mentioned 97.5% rate (or was it 95% ?)

    they are absolutely *KILLING* off earners...and these are not disgustingly wealthy, earning 10 million pounds a year folks...

    these are hard working, career oriented white collar types and small business owners.

    it is despicable, not to mention counterproductive, punitive, vicious and shortsighted.

    that equivalent rate here in the USA is equal to about a person earning $250,000 a year...

    these people are not "rich".

    this is egregiously unfair.
     
  12. HellsKitchenmanNYC

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2005
    Messages:
    5,848
    Albums:
    1
    Likes Received:
    10
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    New York
    How is that possible unless what you buy relates to work or home etc? How can EVERYTHING be tax deductaible? If it's true I want in on this. I also want to move to Florida or texas where there are less or no taxes! :biggrin1:
     
  13. rob_just_rob

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2005
    Messages:
    6,037
    Likes Received:
    9
    Location:
    Nowhere near you
    It entirely depends on the level of government services provided.
     
  14. Flashy

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2007
    Messages:
    8,097
    Likes Received:
    3
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    at home
    I agree...however this is where you run in to the problem that many in the "soak the rich" camp see...which is these are regressive taxes, which hurt lower earners to a much larger degree than the higher earners.

    things such as tobacco tax, gas tax etc, take a bigger toll on a low earner who must drive 30 miles to and from work every day and smokes 3 cigarettes during the ride, then as opposed to a richer one who does the same thing.


    consumption taxes seems logical, and fair but are considered to be regressive by those who just love hiking taxes on the "rich".

    i agree they are regressive, but by the same token there has to be a fair balance

    ultimately, it comes down to the fact that the whole crummy tax system is a gigantic mess and completely confusing, not to mention punitive and utterly loathsome.

    i honestly do not know how *ANYTHING* ever gets done with all these regulations, bureaucracies, etc...oh...wait...*NOTHING* gets done...it is pure inefficiency and ineptitude...they throw as much money down the drain on bureacracy and costs associated as they collect.

    that is what i hate almost as much...it is not that they are taking my money...it is that they are taking it, and throwing a good portion of it right down the drain, due to their incompetence. :mad::mad::mad:
     
  15. B_Nick8

    B_Nick8 New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2007
    Messages:
    11,912
    Likes Received:
    44
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    New York City, by way of Marblehead, Boston and Ge
    According to my accountant--and she's very good at these things; that's why she's paid the big bucks--every penny you spend on "tax" is tax-deductible. So, every time you go to a store for groceries, or pay tax on clothes, or at Duane Reade, for god's sake, those pennies/dollars are tax deductible off your income at the end of the year.

    Just hang on to your receipts. :wink:

    All of them if you intend to play that card. :tongue:
     
  16. HellsKitchenmanNYC

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2005
    Messages:
    5,848
    Albums:
    1
    Likes Received:
    10
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    New York
    Ok I'm having atuff time wrapping my head around how groceries and Duane Reade are TD unless it relates to your job.
     
  17. B_Nick8

    B_Nick8 New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2007
    Messages:
    11,912
    Likes Received:
    44
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    New York City, by way of Marblehead, Boston and Ge
    It's in the effort to avoid double taxation is all.

    But still, very difficult. :rolleyes:
     
  18. Drifterwood

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2007
    Messages:
    15,725
    Likes Received:
    386
    Location:
    Fingringhoe (GB)
    I would support a much simpler system. We have something in the region of 50+ social benefits and 50+ taxes. I would prefer those numbers to be about five each. Sorry beareaucrats, pushing all the paper around, but you are a waste of money.

    I was recently surprised to learn that our local governments spend a significant proportion of our money on things that they don't have to (discretionary spend), as opposed to things for which they have a statutory responsibility. I trust they know where to aim the axe.
     
Draft saved Draft deleted