What does the confederate flag mean to you?

AlteredEgo

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If we're keeping score at home . . . as bad as the Irish, Chinese, and Japanese may have had it in this country, I don't see how you can equate it with the horrors of slavery.
The Irish were also enslaved, mostly in the Caribbean. When they brought them here, they called them indentured servants. They were cheaper than Africans, and could not be kept forever look Africans. Their children were not automatically enslaved. Therefore, they were of lesser economical value and so, in some ways, had it worse. It became illegal to enslave whites here long, long before the Civil War. But still. We don't need to get into a battle over whose people had it worse.
 

b.c.

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From; "The People's History of the Civil War"

On March 13, 1865, at the urging of General Lee and President Davis, the Confederate Congress finally authorized recruitment of up to three hundred thousand slaves. The legislation made no mention of freedom for those who agreed to serve, insisting that both the states and slaveholders must consent to any alteration in the legal standing of slave-soldiers. But in his General Order No. 14 implementing the program, Davis went a step further, stating that “no slave will be accepted as a recruit unless with his own consent and with the approbation of his master by a written instrument conferring . . . the rights of a freedman.” It was not quite an emancipation proclamation. But it was a startling statement from the man who had for four years presided over a slaveholders’ republic. And it was a frank admission that blacks had long since become, as one southern editor put it, “a sort of balance power in this contest, and that the side which succeeds in enlisting the feelings and in securing the active operation and services of the four millions of blacks, must ultimately triumph.”128 The observation was true enough, but the Confederacy came to realize it far too late. No more than a few dozen blacks were ever enlisted under its banner. Sixty from Richmond’s Jackson Hospital came under fire at Petersburg on March 11, 1865, as members of the Jackson Battalion, composed of three companies of white convalescents and two companies of black hospital workers. That was two days before the Confederate Congress authorized black enlistments. On very rare occasions throughout the war, blacks such as those at Jackson Hospital had been pressed into combat service, often with guns at their backs and their families held hostage in slavery. But no black units ever saw combat as congressionally authorized Confederate soldiers. No regiment of Confederate States Colored Troops was ever formed. By contrast, more than two hundred thousand blacks had joined Union forces by March 1865. Hundreds of thousands more were already free. They needed no favors from a near-dead Confederacy to secure that freedom."

So uh, where did the 65,000 number come from?

"So uh, where did the 65,000 number come from?" (Boobalaa)

Ken Burns, in his award winning series "The Civil War," stated the South "dared not arm them." And though some historians have taken details of his account to task, there is enough documentation to suggest that uncut's numbers are yet another example of stuff blown from one's arse.

The more I see and hear of the flag debate the more I think this is just something to redirect the focus of people so that Charleston doesn't turn into another Baltimore or Ferguson situation where protests turn to riots that burn down huge chunks of the area. The flag is not really that important. It's a symbol sure, but that's all it is. A symbol. It's throwing a bone to the mob.

I'm not saying the emblem shouldn't be removed, it should. I just think it's a dog whistle that's being blown out of proportion to distract and refocus the masses. Instead of talking about how Dylann Roof got so fucked up, we're talking about a flag that no one has cared about for decades. Am I wrong??

Or maybe it was the fact that the flag Roof so proudly wore was still flying at full height even after the American flag, and other flags, had be lowered to half mast in honor of those murdered in Charleston.

As such, an "in your face" last straw on the proverbial camel's back.

Though as a symbol, yet ANOTHER one, indicative of those who've been long inclined to diminish, dismiss, and deny the legitimate concerns and issues of racism in America.
 

Boobalaa

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I don't know, but defenders of the rebel flag and the Confederacy seem to have a lot of made-up "facts" that come from there.
Pssh, Ya Think? Earlier someone mentioned it was a symbol of pride for standing up to the unfair federal government. Yeah, ok, that's if you forget that 2/3rds of the confederate army had deserted by 1864. And depending which areas of which southern states your ancestors lived in, were anti- confederacy from the beginning. Especially up in the Ozarks and large swaths of Georgia. Myths are restorative and healing. The Union side was just as guilty of creating its own myths as well.
 
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Calboner

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The South legally left the Union because of unfair Tariffs and other unfair dealings the Congress did to them. It was not over Slavery.

Really? What do you say to that, South Carolina?

In the present case, that fact is established with certainty. We assert that fourteen of the States have deliberately refused, for years past, to fulfill their constitutional obligations, and we refer to their own Statutes for the proof.

The Constitution of the United States, in its fourth Article, provides as follows: "No person held to service or labor in one State, under the laws thereof, escaping into another, shall, in consequence of any law or regulation therein, be discharged from such service or labor, but shall be delivered up, on claim of the party to whom such service or labor may be due."

This stipulation was so material to the compact, that without it that compact would not have been made. The greater number of the contracting parties held slaves, and they had previously evinced their estimate of the value of such a stipulation by making it a condition in the Ordinance for the government of the territory ceded by Virginia, which now composes the States north of the Ohio River.

The General Government, as the common agent, passed laws to carry into effect these stipulations of the States. For many years these laws were executed. But an increasing hostility on the part of the non-slaveholding States to the institution of slavery, has led to a disregard of their obligations, and the laws of the General Government have ceased to effect the objects of the Constitution. The States of Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont, Massachusetts, Connecticut, Rhode Island, New York, Pennsylvania, Illinois, Indiana, Michigan, Wisconsin and Iowa, have enacted laws which either nullify the Acts of Congress or render useless any attempt to execute them. In many of these States the fugitive is discharged from service or labor claimed, and in none of them has the State Government complied with the stipulation made in the Constitution. The State of New Jersey, at an early day, passed a law in conformity with her constitutional obligation; but the current of anti-slavery feeling has led her more recently to enact laws which render inoperative the remedies provided by her own law and by the laws of Congress. In the State of New York even the right of transit for a slave has been denied by her tribunals; and the States of Ohio and Iowa have refused to surrender to justice fugitives charged with murder, and with inciting servile insurrection in the State of Virginia. Thus the constituted compact has been deliberately broken and disregarded by the non-slaveholding States, and the consequence follows that South Carolina is released from her obligation. ("Declaration of the Immediate Causes Which Induce and Justify the Secession of South Carolina from the Federal Union")​

Hmm. Okay, well, that was just South Carolina. Let's ask another Confederate state. How about Mississippi?

In the momentous step, which our State has taken of dissolving its connection with the government of which we so long formed a part, it is but just that we should declare the prominent reasons which have induced our course.

Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery - the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product, which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun. These products have become necessities of the world, and a blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization. That blow has been long aimed at the institution, and was at the point of reaching its consummation. There was no choice left us but submission to the mandates of abolition, or a dissolution of the Union, whose principles had been subverted to work out our ruin. ("A Declaration of the Immediate Causes which Induce and Justify the Secession of the State of Mississippi from the Federal Union")​

Okay, well, what about Texas? You're different from the rest, right? What do you say?

Texas abandoned her separate national existence and consented to become one of the Confederated States to promote her welfare, insure domestic tranquility and secure more substantially the blessings of peace and liberty to her people. She was received into the confederacy with her own constitution, under the guarantee of the federal constitution and the compact of annexation, that she should enjoy these blessings. She was received as a commonwealth holding, maintaining and protecting the institution known as negro slavery--the servitude of the African to the white race within her limits--a relation that had existed from the first settlement of her wilderness by the white race, and which her people intended should exist in all future time. Her institutions and geographical position established the strongest ties between her and other slave-holding States of the confederacy. Those ties have been strengthened by association. But what has been the course of the government of the United States, and of the people and authorities of the non-slave-holding States, since our connection with them?

The controlling majority of the Federal Government, under various pretences and disguises, has so administered the same as to exclude the citizens of the Southern States, unless under odious and unconstitutional restrictions, from all the immense territory owned in common by all the States on the Pacific Ocean, for the avowed purpose of acquiring sufficient power in the common government to use it as a means of destroying the institutions of Texas and her sister slave-holding States. ("A declaration of the causes which impel the State of Texas to secede from the Federal Union")​

I could add similar quotations from the declarations of the states of Georgia, Florida, and Alabama, but instead of doing that, I'll just refer you the page that has collected these passages.

So the official declarations on the part of at least six of the eleven Confederate states make the preservation of the institution of slavery their primary, if not their only reason for seceding from the Union.

Perhaps people like Travis7 and Uncutsouthernboy who want to make out that the Southern cause was not the preservation of slavery have an explanation of that curious fact.
 

Bardox

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Or maybe it was the fact that the flag Roof so proudly wore was still flying at full height even after the American flag, and other flags, had be lowered to half mast in honor of those murdered in Charleston.

As such, an "in your face" last straw on the proverbial camel's back.

Though as a symbol, yet ANOTHER one, indicative of those who've been long inclined to diminish, dismiss, and deny the legitimate concerns and issues of racism in America.

You do realize that flag is fixed in the position on the pole it is on, right? It physically can't be lowered to half staff. There is no rope to pull it up and down. If you want to say it should have been taken down entirely, I'll agree with you. But getting upset because it too was not lowered to half staff, an impossibility, is a tad unrealistic.

Or are you saying that if it had been welded to the center of the pole, putting it at half staff along side the others, the flag would be fine then??o_O
 

b.c.

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You do realize that flag is fixed in the position on the pole it is on, right? It physically can't be lowered to half staff. There is no rope to pull it up and down. If you want to say it should have been taken down entirely, I'll agree with you. But getting upset because it too was not lowered to half staff, an impossibility, is a tad unrealistic.

Or are you saying that if it had been welded to the center of the pole, putting it at half staff along side the others, the flag would be fine then??o_O

Look bud, you can shove the snark.

Anyone with half a brain knows what is meant when I (and numerous other news reports) noted the flag as "flying high" while others were lowered, and it's exactly your kind of semantic doublespeak that people are finally tiring of.
 
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I'm tired of people talking about this flag period. It won't stop the thousands of people dying from gang violence, the black on black crime in Chicago or Detroit, the thousands of homicides that happen yearly to people of all walks of life. One white guy who is messed up in the head takes a picture with a flag and kills innocents and all of a sudden everyone is up in arms over a flag........... WHY THE FUCK DOES THE FLAG BOTHER YOU MORE THAN THE PEOPLE THAT WERE JUST KILLED BY A MURDER?! Valid question I think...
 
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Boobalaa

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If it's any consolation to the Rebs, the following two days is the 139th Anniversary of Custer's Last Stand/ The Battle of Little Big Horn/ The Battle of Greasy Grass. So conjure up that Indian blood in you, crank up "Garry Owen" and tip back a few Tall cool ones
 
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Bardox

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Look bud, you can shove the snark.

Anyone with half a brain knows what is meant when I (and numerous other news reports) noted the flag as "flying high" while others were lowered, and it's exactly your kind of semantic doublespeak that people are finally tiring of.
What doublespeak? What is the double meaning of the cables that hold the flag up there are welded to the top of the pole. It cannot be put at half staff. There is no snark. How much more plain can I put that? It literally can't be done. You can make an argument that it should have been taken down, which I would agree with, but to say you are upset because it was not at half staff like the rest of the flags when you know that was not possible is absurd.

You are arguing with someone who is agreeing with you on what should now be done with flag. You realize this, yes?
 

AlteredEgo

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The more I see and hear of the flag debate the more I think this is just something to redirect the focus of people so that Charleston doesn't turn into another Baltimore or Ferguson situation where protests turn to riots that burn down huge chunks of the area. The flag is not really that important. It's a symbol sure, but that's all it is. A symbol. It's throwing a bone to the mob.

I'm not saying the emblem shouldn't be removed, it should. I just think it's a dog whistle that's being blown out of proportion to distract and refocus the masses. Instead of talking about how Dylann Roof got so fucked up, we're talking about a flag that no one has cared about for decades. Am I wrong??
You are wrong. I have cared very much since the night in the woods when at [age obscurred] I snuck out to meet a friend, and we saw that flag we had only ever seen on Dukes of Hazard, and the white hooded robes we'd only previously seen in movies. I have cared for most of my life. I started to care differently when I learned whose flag it was. Patriotism was important to the people who raised me. I came to see the flag as the banner of traitors and evil people. I still see it that way. And I want every person who wants to fly it to keep flying it, the better to know where not to turn up.
 
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Calboner

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I'm tired of people talking about this flag period. It won't stop the thousands of people dying from gang violence, the black on black crime in Chicago or Detroit, the thousands of homicides that happen yearly to people of all walks of life. One white guy who is messed up in the head takes a picture with a flag and kills innocents and all of a sudden everyone is up in arms over a flag........... WHY THE FUCK DOES THE FLAG BOTHER YOU MORE THAN THE PEOPLE THAT WERE JUST KILLED BY A MURDER?! Valid question I think...

No, it is not a valid question: it is a fallacious question--in two respects: (1) It rests on a false presupposition, namely that raising objections to the public display of the Rebel flag means that such displays bother us more than does the killing of nine black churchgoers in Charleston. (2) "It won't stop the thousands of people dying from gang violence, the black on black crime in Chicago or Detroit, the thousands of homicides that happen yearly to people of all walks of life" is an instance of the "But what about . . . ?" strategy--a technique of distraction that is useful when one is on the losing side of an argument.
 

Bardox

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You are wrong. I have cared very much since the night in the woods when at [age obscurred] I snuck out to meet a friend, and we saw that flag we had only ever seen on Dukes of Hazard, and the white hooded robes we'd only previously seen in movies. I have cared for most of my life. I started to care differently when I learned whose flag it was. Patriotism was important to the people who raised me. I came to see the flag as the banner of traitors and evil people. I still see it that way. And I want every person who wants to fly it to keep flying it, the better to know where not to turn up.
Ok, you care about the emblem and what it means to you. Accepted. So I'll rephrase.

...no one has cared enough about it to debate it's existence above the South Carolina capital for decades...

I just think it's being given all this attention by the media and politicians to quell the people gathering in Charleston before they got... rowdy. "I realize you are angry and racism is still... LOOK! Red thing! Over there! Maybe we should take that down. Let's have a period of public comment about it." There is nothing being discussed addressing how Dylann Roof became what he is. The confederate battle flag had little, if anything, to do with his radicalization.

I just feel we are taking our eye off the ball here. But fine, I'm wrong.
 

Onyxpumper

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OBAMA AND HILLARY BOTH HAD NO PROBLEM USING CONFEDERATE FLAG DURING PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGNS
Now, suddenly the flag 'belongs in a museum'

by STEVE WATSON | INFOWARS | JUNE 24, 2015

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In the wake of the Charleston shooting, and subsequent pictures of the shooter posing with a Confederate flag, Barack Obama this week said that the flag belongs in a museum.

It seems he has changed his tune in the last three years somewhere, however, given that he was using the symbol during his 2012 re-election campaign.

obama-confederate-flag-pin.jpg


Indeed, Obama had his own Confederate flag campaign badge, which states “Where the confederate flag still flies, we have built a powerful coalition of African Americans and white Americans.”

The quote was taken from Obama’s racially heated speech in 2008, during which he also praised his mentor former pastor the controversial Reverend Wright.

Obama was not alone in using the symbol of the Confederate flag, synonymous with the South, to solicit political support.

Hillary clinton had her own brand of Confederate merchandise in 2008.

hillary-alabama-pin.jpg


Strange given that she has also stated that the flag has no place in the US today.

I would like to see credible proof that these buttons not only existed; but were also sanctioned by the candidate's party, election camp and the candidate themselves. Other than that, these are buttons that any Joe Shmuck can have printed 1,000's of for very little money; or photoshopped into a picture to say "they existed".

Please and thanks!
 

AlteredEgo

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Ok, you care about the emblem and what it means to you. Accepted. So I'll rephrase.

...no one has cared enough about it to debate it's existence above the South Carolina capital for decades...

I just think it's being given all this attention by the media and politicians to quell the people gathering in Charleston before they got... rowdy. "I realize you are angry and racism is still... LOOK! Red thing! Over there! Maybe we should take that down. Let's have a period of public comment about it." There is nothing being discussed addressing how Dylann Roof became what he is. The confederate battle flag had little, if anything, to do with his radicalization.

I just feel we are taking our eye off the ball here. But fine, I'm wrong.
Okay. Point:Bardox. :)
 
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TexanStar

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Okay. Point:Bardox. :)

*does a flying dive and steals the point before it reaches Bardox's hands*

Don't give him that thing :p

There've been numerous attempts to get that flag taken down, driven both locally, and nationally, over the years, including very recent years. This isn't something everyone was content with for the past 20 years.

There's so much national attention on it right now because it's clear that something needs to be done, and talking about that flag is a lot easier than talking about gun control, so flag it is.

But just because there may finally be a success in taking it down doesn't mean that it hasn't been a constant sore point and something that people have been trying to take care of (with only limited success) for years.
 
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StormfrontFL

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My ancestors ( for your information ). Was Osage Indian ..
The Osage and other Indians was slaughtered for land that they lived on for years and years by people from another country that wanted for their own.. So you fucked up piece trash... My ancestors paid the big price... So that side of the family don't mean anything? How about the other side.. I'm Irish too. So death to me is no meaning..
Then how about guns... I should hate guns and gun owners since my brother took a shotgun to his head to end his life.
..... I could hate the English , the American flag and America, and all gun makers and gun owners...
But since there is no need to put blame on others in the past, I can deal with history and learn from it not drell on the past and hark on it to make people pay for what happened over a hundred years ago..
It would be so easy to make fun of your mistakes seeing as how you try so hard to seem intelligent.

Who gives a damn about your ancestors? I have American Indian in my family line too. So what? We are talking about here and now and you wish to cling to original intent. Not for a second do I think that any member of the KKK thinks about the history of the flag when he marches and talks of how he wants to take"his" country back. Not once did "proud heritage" come up when that flag was flown during a bombing or lynching.

I wonder who you stole these words from because as you've shown you are unable to use your own
 

halcyondays

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1. Treason under Article 3, Section 3 of the US Constitution.
2. Treason for the "states' right" of maintaining African chattel slavery. (The states' rights crowd never bothers to mention the right for which they confederates committed treason, but I always remind them.)
3. One hundred years of Jim Crow, Plessy v Ferguson, separate-but-equal, explicit, legal racial discrimination against blacks.
4. KKK intimidation and terrorism.


"South Carolina is too small for a republic and too large for an insane asylum."