What is the social value of sexual experience?

[rob_just_rob]

Where are they?

I don't know anyone in rural northern California. Most of the women I met who preferred virgins lived in urban southern Ontario.

Do you think they would like my type?

I don't know what your type is.

Why do they prefer male virgins?

I'm not a mind reader, but from the limited discussions I had on the subject:
- it's exciting to be someone's first
- no bad habits/more willing to take direction
- won't be comparing her to previous partners

were some reasons.

 

[basincreek]

Interesting. Strange to know that there are some women out there that actually would like to be with a male virgin.

 

[Bbucko]

So is the desire to get somebody that already knows what they are doing a big factor for why virgins are avoided?

Is this why many find people that have had loads of partners to be preferable?

People have a funny way of prioritizing in life. If, IRL, you had prioritized a greater variety of sexual experience then you'd have found a way to make it happen. For whatever reason you chose a different path, though you find no satisfaction in it; I wonder if a highly-sexualized life such as mine would make you happy or just leave you feeling jaded with ashes in your mouth

Wide_Dick hit the nail on the head: you're conflating confidence with both self-worth and social value. Confidence is not arrogance: it's the projection to the world that one is familiar with (and proficient in) social graces. Sexual prowess never really fell under and rubric of "social graces" that I've ever come across.

One can be a great lay and still be a lousy person, and all the experience in the world won't turn an unimaginative, selfish oaf into either a better lay or a better person.

 

[basincreek]

People have a funny way of prioritizing in life. If, IRL, you had prioritized a greater variety of sexual experience then you'd have found a way to make it happen.

How so? I've been trying to have sex since I was a teenage and it hasn't happened yet.

For whatever reason you chose a different path, though you find no satisfaction in it; I wonder if a highly-sexualized life such as mine would make you happy or just leave you feeling jaded with ashes in your mouth

I know I'd probably be different. How? Beats me.

Wide_Dick hit the nail on the head: you're conflating confidence with both self-worth and social value. Confidence is not arrogance: it's the projection to the world that one is familiar with (and proficient in) social graces. Sexual prowess never really fell under and rubric of "social graces" that I've ever come across.

One can be a great lay and still be a lousy person, and all the experience in the world won't turn an unimaginative, selfish oaf into either a better lay or a better person.

But being unable to attract women does make you feel like you have self worth. And having low self worth does make you feel like you are not proficient in social graces.

So how does one know if they are proficient in social graces or not?

 

[Bbucko]

How so? I've been trying to have sex since I was a teenage and it hasn't happened yet.

I haven't lived your life, so I don't know how many chances you've lost. But even if it's subconscious, there's something sabotaging your love life, and that something is you.

I know I'd probably be different. How? Beats me.

To find the answer to that, you need to find the self-awareness to locate your lack of confidence and correct it, which I believe is possible. You just need access to a really good counselor/therapist.

But being unable to attract women does make you feel like you have self worth. And having low self worth does make you feel like you are not proficient in social graces.

So how does one know if they are proficient in social graces or not?

Social graces, as I wrote above, have little to do with sexual prowess. They're more a combo of being interested in what someone says and interacting in an intelligent, respectful manner. You do it here all the time.

Most women I've met are interested in a man's sense of humor, an easy-going demeanor and a feeling of security: LPSG aside, IRL explicit sexuality and sociability don't mix so well.

You have internalized your feelings of sexual inadequacy until they've carpet-bombed your feelings of self-worth. No matter what happened at some stage in your life, at this point, as an adult, you own it now. Eventually you'll need to deal with it or just remain lonely, which really are your two choices.

 

[dangly]

I haven't lived your life, so I don't know how many chances you've lost. But even if it's subconscious, there's something sabotaging your love life, and that something is you.

To find the answer to that, you need to find the self-awareness to locate your lack of confidence and correct it, which I believe is possible. You just need access to a really good counselor/therapist.

(snip)

You have internalized your feelings of sexual inadequacy until they've carpet-bombed your feelings of self-worth. No matter what happened at some stage in your life, at this point, as an adult, you own it now. Eventually you'll need to deal with it or just remain lonely, which really are your two choices.

Hear, hear. Virginity is not something that, in and of itself, stands in the way of sex; it's only a hurdle if you choose to make it one. Just as everyone was once a kid, everyone was also once a virgin. It's just a technicality.

I spent some time a month or two ago chatting with a guy who was interested in me and who had never had sex before. He initially seemed like a cool guy, if a bit unsure of himself, so I made the effort to be as understanding, compassionate, supportive, reassuring, and positive as I could be, with the hope that I could gain his trust and build a great relationship. Unfortunately, he was so fixated on both his desire to have sex for the first time and his anxiety about it that once he got onto that subject, I was never able to lead the conversation anywhere else. It felt as though every time I reassured him that things were going to be just fine and that I liked him, those reassurances fell on deaf ears. I became very tired of and frustrated with playing psychotherapist and babysitter when I really wanted to be forming a solid friendship, and so I eventually called the whole thing off. He had spent so long fixating on the negative that I was unable to get him to see things in a positive light, and I didn't want to be caught up in that unbroken cycle of abject misery.

If you're anything like that guy, you may very well be sabotaging yourself. Even though misery loves company, that's generally not a good way to attract people you want to have positive, empowering, and beneficial relationships with.

As Bbucko says, you need to face and conquer the underlying fear that's driving your insecurities. Learn to trust yourself. Have confidence in the things that you do. Be in control of your life rather than letting yourself be helplessly railroaded down an unwanted path by factors beyond your control. A good therapist can do an amazing job of helping you discover what those fears and insecurities are, but you have to find the strength to conquer them yourself.

 

[D_Etienne Neerdowell]

By social value how desirable the person is.

Thus you have an older virgin and the assumption is that they must have low social value (not attractive, poor, emotionally impaired, physiologically impaired). With those assumptions the older virgin is automatically going to be seen as less attractive.

By social value then you're basically saying value as a person per se. As such you're covering a very large base.

Attractiveness isn't defined by a person's sexual experience, though a person may exude a strong sexual energy this, I imagine, is really just an image that a person is attempting to paint of themselves.

Sexual experience doesn't help develop the amygdala or the hippocamus sections of the brain so I don't think that having a lot of sex makes you a more emotionally rounded individual. Certainly a meaningful sexual relationship can help a person develop specific individual emotional responses such as intimacy. However a person who displays the characteristics of hypersexuality (nymphomania, satyriasis call it what you will) may even be said to be lacking basic emotional characteristics.

From a physiological perspective I don't see why your worth as a person would be questioned because of little or no prior sexual experience.

All of the above is from an objective viewpoint however subjectively when one is milling around the "hoi polloi" then I would imagine that in some circles a middle-aged virgin would be a topic of discussion. This is purely because anyone who distinguishes themselves from the crowd is immediately seen as a target for the pack to attack. By distancing yourself from a very common practice (casual sex that is) you make some people uneasy. Why are you a virgin? Is he religious? Is he lying? Is he making a comment about the way that I live my life? Does he think that he's better than me? At the heart of the matter, to those around you that is, you're giving them an opportunity to deflect from their own insecurities and to ensure that their peers don't turn their consolidated attention to them.

All in all if you ever encounter someone who questions your value as an individual (whether it be emotional or physical) then it says more about them than you and they aren't worth bothering about.

 

[D_Hammond Happydipper]

basincreek..


do you use open or closed body language?

 

[basincreek]

I have no idea what type of body language I use.

How do you define them?



I have a very hard time reading body language in others. More than a few times I've nearly gotten into physical altercations when I completely failed to notice someone was ticked off at me. It's somewhat troubling to me actually.

 

[MrHangman]

This is probably going to come across as horrible.

I know virgins who choose to abstain from sex. I think that's totally cool. And I know people who just haven't had those hormones raging that make them want to have sex. That's totally cool too.

However, I know virgins who talk about sex and girls a lot and try to get laid, but are unsuccessful. I think of them as losers in a way. It's so easy to have sex, and they fail. Therefore there is something wrong going on there.

All I'm saying is that it depends on the person. If you choose to abstain from sex, I totally respect that and the person. If you choose to have sex, but fail at nailing your target, I kind of look at you like you're subpar compared to other regular people.

 

[B_subgirrl]

I have a very hard time reading body language in others. More than a few times I've nearly gotten into physical altercations when I completely failed to notice someone was ticked off at me. It's somewhat troubling to me actually.

In that case you've probably spent your life missing signals from women too.

 

[basincreek]

This is probably going to come across as horrible.

I know virgins who choose to abstain from sex. I think that's totally cool. And I know people who just haven't had those hormones raging that make them want to have sex. That's totally cool too.

However, I know virgins who talk about sex and girls a lot and try to get laid, but are unsuccessful. I think of them as losers in a way. It's so easy to have sex, and they fail. Therefore there is something wrong going on there.

All I'm saying is that it depends on the person. If you choose to abstain from sex, I totally respect that and the person. If you choose to have sex, but fail at nailing your target, I kind of look at you like you're subpar compared to other regular people.

That is what is so frustrating about it. For others it is so easy and you sit there wondering how it happened to you that it is so hard. You constantly wonder "what the fuck is wrong with me?"

I imagine it's like people born with a particular learning disability getting depressed that what is so natural and easy for everyone else is so hard for them. Actually I know that's what it's like because I was born with dyslexia and had to work extra hard to pick up on reading and writing. But, as I hope you can tell by being able to read this, eventually I found ways to do it. However, before I figured it out, it was torture to watch everyone else "get" what your own brain refused to understand.

I think it was that experience that led me to have an affinity with people with disabilities and why I eventually set up a program to get disabled pets adopted from shelters.

In that case you've probably spent your life missing signals from women too.

Maybe. The thing there is you never know. I've never had a woman come up and say she was sending signals that I missed. But it is possible.

 

[rob_just_rob]

I think "missing signals" is overemphasized as an explanation for why certain people miss sex opportunities.

As far as I can tell, most guys fall into two camps:

- the ones who need to be hit over the head for them to realize that someone else (a woman, typically) is interested in them. This usually describes me.

- the ones who interpret any interest from a woman as an invitation to hit on her.

Perhaps 10% of men fall between those two extremes.

 

[D_Hammond Happydipper]

I have no idea what type of body language I use.

How do you define them?



I have a very hard time reading body language in others. More than a few times I've nearly gotten into physical altercations when I completely failed to notice someone was ticked off at me. It's somewhat troubling to me actually.

Using Body Language

ton of good info

 

[D_Etienne Neerdowell]

In that case you've probably spent your life missing signals from women too.

I'm sorry for moving slightly off topic here but I think basincreek made a great point to this post:-

Maybe. The thing there is you never know. I've never had a woman come up and say she was sending signals that I missed. But it is possible.

Can I just say that in this day and age where we go on non-stop about equality for all it still gets me goat that if I'm naive enough to misread a woman's body language that I could potentially miss out on a romantic relationship because a woman is too shy to say anything about it to me.

Rant over - apologies. :redface:

 

[joeweekend]

Someone who gives great sex has HUGE social value. Sex is very important to people. Very - they'll risk all sorts of trouble, pay all sorts of money to get it. In that sense, someone who puts out has HUGE social value.

But sexy isn't the only social value. I think your suggestion about virgins don't get laid because they aren't seen as socially valuable doesn't work. Virgins can have major social value, but for other reasons. Maybe they're great teachers, business people, etc., and have great value thereby.

Perennial virgins don't get laid because they've just never had the sexual spark needed to get some.

 

[B_subgirrl]

That is what is so frustrating about it. For others it is so easy and you sit there wondering how it happened to you that it is so hard. You constantly wonder "what the fuck is wrong with me?"

Firstly, nothing's wrong with you that a few more months (or years) of confidence building activities won't fix. You are not a horrible person. You are not boring (when you get distracted and forget to worry :tongue. You are not ugly. Your body is fine and your penis is fine. But I think you know all that now. You just need to believe in yourself a little more.


Secondly, it's really pretty normal to be wondering 'What the fuck is wrong with me?', and it won't go away just because you have sex. I could list a ton of things (even just sex related things) that have prompted that kind of thought from me. I usually deal with it using an attack of logic. For instance, just because I am different in one way or another, it doesn't make it (or me) 'wrong'. You'd be amazed at the effect this kind of thinking can have if you practise it regularly.

I imagine it's like people born with a particular learning disability getting depressed that what is so natural and easy for everyone else is so hard for them. Actually I know that's what it's like because I was born with dyslexia and had to work extra hard to pick up on reading and writing. But, as I hope you can tell by being able to read this, eventually I found ways to do it. However, before I figured it out, it was torture to watch everyone else "get" what your own brain refused to understand.

I think this is a pretty good analogy. Seriously, watching my brother around women used to be PAINFUL! He just didn't get it.

Maybe. The thing there is you never know. I've never had a woman come up and say she was sending signals that I missed. But it is possible.

Well, she wouldn't. Once she's sent the signals, she thinks she's told you and you're not interested.

Can I just say that in this day and age where we go on non-stop about equality for all it still gets me goat that if I'm naive enough to misread a woman's body language that I could potentially miss out on a romantic relationship because a woman is too shy to say anything about it to me.

What I just said to basincreek applies here as well. Once she's sent the signals, she thinks she's told you and you're not interested. A few women will tell you outright that they're interested, but with most it won't even occur to them to do so because they HAVE told you. Personally, I've been pretty obvious on occasion, but only when I'm getting a really good vibe and am fairly sure I won't be rejected or upset him.

 

[Big_Red]

I think basincreek has Asperger's. I'm no expert, but he seems to fit the description. basincreek: you get that book I recommended to ya yet?

 

[basincreek]

Someone who gives great sex has HUGE social value. Sex is very important to people. Very - they'll risk all sorts of trouble, pay all sorts of money to get it. In that sense, someone who puts out has HUGE social value.

But sexy isn't the only social value. I think your suggestion about virgins don't get laid because they aren't seen as socially valuable doesn't work. Virgins can have major social value, but for other reasons. Maybe they're great teachers, business people, etc., and have great value thereby.

Perennial virgins don't get laid because they've just never had the sexual spark needed to get some.

What exactly do you mean by the bolded bit? How would I get this "sexual spark?"

Firstly, nothing's wrong with you that a few more months (or years) of confidence building activities won't fix. You are not a horrible person. You are not boring (when you get distracted and forget to worry :tongue. You are not ugly. Your body is fine and your penis is fine. But I think you know all that now. You just need to believe in yourself a little more.

Thanks for recognizing that I don't have nearly the self esteem issues that I used to.

I think this is a pretty good analogy. Seriously, watching my brother around women used to be PAINFUL! He just didn't get it.

Interesting. Have you ever tried to coach your brother on what to do?

Well, she wouldn't. Once she's sent the signals, she thinks she's told you and you're not interested.

I find the idea that a woman might have been sending signals to me, saw that I didn't respond then assumed I wasn't interested in her to be bizarre. For some reason I just can't process the idea that she would actually think I would reject her.

And I'm not just imagining women with the body of Paigexox either.

I think basincreek has Asperger's. I'm no expert, but he seems to fit the description. basincreek: you get that book I recommended to ya yet?

Aspergers? Interesting.

As for the book? No. I have such a backlog of reading right now anyways. Most of it is related to research material for my screenplays.

 

[D_Etienne Neerdowell]

What I just said to basincreek applies here as well. Once she's sent the signals, she thinks she's told you and you're not interested. A few women will tell you outright that they're interested, but with most it won't even occur to them to do so because they HAVE told you. Personally, I've been pretty obvious on occasion, but only when I'm getting a really good vibe and am fairly sure I won't be rejected or upset him.

Yeah, I understand the workings behind body language but it's really not a fair system at all.

It's something which can work really well in say a nightclub environment where the body language can be more overt and therefore is difficult to misinterpret. However in closer knit situations with say groups of friends, people at work etc. people are too reserved to exhibit overt body language for fear of rejection and so they revert back to more subtle forms which can, in fact, be quite confusing.