What kind of god/s do you believe in? - US / rest of world

[breeze]

I've barely touched the complex nature of the apparitions. The third commission not only had medical and scientific experts but experts from other fields.
The first commission of experts was lead by henri joyeaux who was a medical professor and i believe regarded at that time as one if not the leading medical expert in the world. He was also a communist and atheist and when to yugoslavia with the intent of debunking the apparitions. Since these experts have to publish their results , if they errored , other scientists and experts will caught their mistakes. Henri published their data in a french scientific journal and wrote a book about their investigations. If they are errors in their data i do not know about them.

 

[breeze]

As i understand it if you call your local church and claim you just saw the Virgin Mary { after they stop laughing - just kidding }. You will then receive a 25-50 page form to fill out. { maybe not in every case } If you pass that test the church will start asking your coworkers and neighbors about your character. Then a couple of professors from your local college will stop by and interview you. That will start a process that could last anywhere from 100 to 500 years or longer. Some exceptional cases might be shorter. But no one is more skeptical.

 

[D_Edwin Eatser]

If 'all-mighty' god really existed, he'd choose better people to represent him! I follow the gods and goddesses of my ancestors, in short I'm a pagan.

 

[D_Tilly_De_Toilet]

That will start a process that could last anywhere from 100 to 500 years or longer.

lol

 

[Industrialsize]

Does the BVM of Medjugorje read LPSG?

 

[helgaleena]

The Blitzkrieg on Grinchitude - Treesus & CHRIST-mas Tree - The Colbert Report - 12/15/09 - Video Clip | Comedy Central

Gimme the old-time USA religion. :tongue:

 

[Snozzle]

Does the BVM of Medjugorje read LPSG?

That page is whence I cut and pasted those quotations.

Breeze makes makes some good points about responsible skepticism, so I went back to his original post and it seems very clear that those researchers, praying as they attach the electrodes, are not dispassionate observers.

It should hardly be surprising that these "apparitions" are very well synchronised. These people have been doing this together once a month (not "daily") for decades.

What should happen, but what will never happen, is that a skilled and skeptical magician, such as the Amazing Randi, is allowed to investigate the apparitions.

Sometimes the precautions you need to put in place to prevent fraud are unexpected. For example if someone claims to be able to cause phenomena while tied up, far from using more and thicker rope, you add some cotton thread to the bindings. If it is broken after the phenomena, shazam!

 

[breeze]

Its hard to write this stuff which is complex when you're tired etc etc. so i might have written it poorly but in the original thread i wrote it wasn't the researchers who were praying as they attached the wires it was the little girl who was praying.
As far as i know anyone is more than welcome to investigate the apparitions which are still ongoing.

 

[breeze]

On a lighter note { in some ways } there was a interesting segment on a past 20/20 which of course is the abc 60 minutes. When i first saw it i thought 20/20 which is part of abc news was going ballistic. But it was the only segment of its kind i ever saw there. It was hosted by hugh downs and barbara walters. According to hugh downs he said in the segment " it happens more often than people realize ". Everyone has heard of the saying no one comes back from the dead. Well this segment , again , on abc news said there are people who died who return for a visit. They had 2 examples. Of course this isn't science but stories. One was of a woman who saw her daughter in her lobby. The daughter simply told don't worry i'm ok and walked away. Then 10 minutes later the mother received a phone call from the police who told her that her daughter had died 4 hours before. The other example of a someone in england who went a pub and saw an old friend who he knew had pasted away years before. I don't remember any more details. Its entertaining , its abc news , its 20/20 and its hugh downs and barbara walters. It doesn't prove anything but i guess if there is life after death its possible.

 

[mexdude]

I was catolic like most mexicans, but the mroe u see the less sense it makes, pretty much only jesus teaching kind of make sense, other than that, miracles and such are pointless, and i went to understand more the core of the aztec and maya old belief, and that one made more sense to me, in my way of see it, its not about an invisible higher power, the powers of life exist everywhere and we deal with them every day, earth, fire, water, wind, and nature, and if u dnt respect them they punish you, and after all thats pretty much how it is in the real world, i dnt know if i make any sense, but it works for me

 

[superbot]

Im a wiccan so i dont really think there is just one god, but many

Of course,it's the latest fashion!!...

 

[breeze]

James Randi does good work and is respected but i get the sense unless he is a scientist or has a medical degree he won't be accepted in the general scientific world. Does he have at least a bs in a scientific major ? I read about an incident that happened years ago. Robert bellah was a professor of sociiology at harvard and berkeley. He was appointed the dean of social sciences {psychology , sociology etc } at princeton {where albert einstein taught }. The science professors , the math professors , the engineering professors { if they have any } but you get the idea came with a vicious attack on bellah and the social sciences calling them garbage , nonsense , voodoo and so forth. If you're going to be a player at that level you have to have the qualifications. And that means a science or medical background.

 

[Drifterwood]

All I know for sure, is that my God has a bigger cock than your God.

 

[DasLeezard]

I believe in Marijuana. In weed I trust.

 

[Snozzle]

I think James Randi was a co-author of a published paper refuting the claims of Jacques Beneviste (sp?) who claimed that water has memory (the basis of homeopathy), and it was he who devised the experiments. The scientific world doesn't (or shouldn't) pay a lot of attention to scientific titles, as long as you do good science. There are many fields in which amateurs make major contributions. Archaeology and astronomy are two, and there are comets and asteroids named after the amateurs who discovered them.

The scientific work on the apparitions of Medjugorje looks a bit like the work of ghosthunters. They don't know what they're looking for, so they throw any kind of scientific equipment at it. I wouldn't be in the least surprised if the brainwaves of the "visionaries" are exactly the same as the brainwaves of people who are really hearing or seeing things. The question is, are they any different from the brainwaves of people having hallucinations? One simple test would be to get all the visionaries to write down what the vision had said, without conferring. Did they all write down the same thing?

Another thing I notice is the vapidity of the announcements. That of November 2 said

"Dear children; With motherly perseverance and love I am bringing you the light of life to destroy the darkness of death in you. Do not reject me, my children. Stop and look within yourselves and see how sinful you are. Be aware of your sins and pray for forgiveness. My children, you do not desire to accept that you are weak and little, but you can be strong and great by doing God's will. Give me your cleansed hearts that I may illuminate them with the light of life, my Son. Thank you."

Now if she had said, "Tell Peter Whitton, CEO of the Pike River coal mine, Greymouth, New Zealand, not to send anyone down the mine on November 19 or they'll all be killed" I'd be vastly more impressed.

Or how about this, for August 25, 2001:

Dear children! Today I call all of you to decide for holiness. May for you, little children, always in your thoughts and in each situation holiness be in the first place, in work and in speech. In this way, you will also put it into practice; little by little, step by step, prayer and a decision for holiness will enter into your family. Be real with yourselves and do not bind yourselves to material things but to God. And do not forget, little children, that your life is as passing as a flower. Thank you for having responded to my call." 08/2001

Imagine if she'd said "Don't let Saudi Arabians who've trained to fly planes but not to land them go flying for the next month. And stay clear of the World Trade Center, New York, on September 11!"

 

[mexdude]

I believe in Marijuana. In weed I trust.

:biggrin1: , LOL

 

[breeze]

I think James Randi was a co-author of a published paper refuting the claims of Jacques Beneviste (sp?) who claimed that water has memory (the basis of homeopathy), and it was he who devised the experiments. The scientific world doesn't (or shouldn't) pay a lot of attention to scientific titles, as long as you do good science. There are many fields in which amateurs make major contributions. Archaeology and astronomy are two, and there are comets and asteroids named after the amateurs who discovered them.

The scientific work on the apparitions of Medjugorje looks a bit like the work of ghosthunters. They don't know what they're looking for, so they throw any kind of scientific equipment at it. I wouldn't be in the least surprised if the brainwaves of the "visionaries" are exactly the same as the brainwaves of people who are really hearing or seeing things. The question is, are they any different from the brainwaves of people having hallucinations? One simple test would be to get all the visionaries to write down what the vision had said, without conferring. Did they all write down the same thing?

Another thing I notice is the vapidity of the announcements. That of November 2 said

Now if she had said, "Tell Peter Whitton, CEO of the Pike River coal mine, Greymouth, New Zealand, not to send anyone down the mine on November 19 or they'll all be killed" I'd be vastly more impressed.

Or how about this, for August 25, 2001:
Imagine if she'd said "Don't let Saudi Arabians who've trained to fly planes but not to land them go flying for the next month. And stay clear of the World Trade Center, New York, on September 11!"

This matter has many layers and veils. You or anybody else can always email the folks at medjugorje.org for a prompt reply { at least they always have replied to me quickly in the past }
I read skeptic magazine too. For good science to be recognized as good science it has to be published in a scientific journal and validated by your peers. I believe i saw something that james randi had published something in some journal. I just don't remember.
The first commission was lead by an atheist. I never thought about it until you mentioned it but the entire team might have be atheists {because the yugoslavian government might have insisted on it}. They have might be baffled by it all but they are professionals and their work has been validated by 2 other commissions and their peers { in published works }. That's what science is and does.
That is an great idea to have all the visionaries write down the messages of the Blessed Virgin Mary. I don't know if that has been done but i would bet it has. You can ask the people on that web site.
While the Holy Mother leaves only one message to the world per month she does appear daily as far as i know { again you can ask the web site }.
The number of appearances has pasted 10,000 and the sessions last from 3 minutes to 40 minutes. The transcripts are all there online. Over 10,000 transcripts.
You are not the only one to comment on the messages the Blessed Virgin Mary leaves and their general nature. But i think the transcripts reveal more detailed messages. There are even questions and answer sessions i believe. As i recall the Holy Mother has said she has left 10 prophesies with the visionaries. When the apparitions end they all will start to be fullfilled. The visionaries have been told what the prophesies are and will inform the church 24 hours before they occur. The church is suppose to inform the public immediately upon receiving the prophesy.
One prophesy i think is that some symbol { ever supernatural } will appear where she first appeared. A lot of people aren't familiar with it but one of the most famous Blessed Virgin Mary apparitions is her appearance at fatima. " When thanked for his role in freeing poland from communsim Pope Paul said not me but by the Blessed Mother's affirmations at fatima and medjugorje and that medjugorge is the continuation and fullfillment of fatima ". The reason i point out fatima are the 3 famous fatima secrets which probably billions of words have been written about. No one , as far as i know , has ever questioned that they were authentic. Even skeptic magazine and the scientific communtity from what i've read accepts them as they are. For specfic and detailed messages or prohesies delivered in 1917 they are1} the soviet union will rise and lead the world in the wrong direction unless people around the world convert { convert may not be the right word } 2.} there will a second and worst world war { heavy civiilian deaths , a specific sign indicating when the war would start and i believe the exact date 3.} the third prohesy is vague { written in prose i believe } but some people have said it relates to the attempted murder of the pope in the 80s.
I only write this to point out specific and detail messages left in the past.
I don't want to write too much but there is more. But i like james randi and his work. He does valuable work and really as far as i know the church would more than welcome him and team of scientists to investigate medjugorje. I would love for this to happen and maybe his followers can ask to do just that. The church has nothing to hide. The truth whatever it is will come out one way or another.

 

[breeze]

I think James Randi was a co-author of a published paper refuting the claims of Jacques Beneviste (sp?) who claimed that water has memory (the basis of homeopathy), and it was he who devised the experiments. The scientific world doesn't (or shouldn't) pay a lot of attention to scientific titles, as long as you do good science. There are many fields in which amateurs make major contributions. Archaeology and astronomy are two, and there are comets and asteroids named after the amateurs who discovered them.

The scientific work on the apparitions of Medjugorje looks a bit like the work of ghosthunters. They don't know what they're looking for, so they throw any kind of scientific equipment at it. I wouldn't be in the least surprised if the brainwaves of the "visionaries" are exactly the same as the brainwaves of people who are really hearing or seeing things. The question is, are they any different from the brainwaves of people having hallucinations? One simple test would be to get all the visionaries to write down what the vision had said, without conferring. Did they all write down the same thing?

Another thing I notice is the vapidity of the announcements. That of November 2 said

Now if she had said, "Tell Peter Whitton, CEO of the Pike River coal mine, Greymouth, New Zealand, not to send anyone down the mine on November 19 or they'll all be killed" I'd be vastly more impressed.

Or how about this, for August 25, 2001:
Imagine if she'd said "Don't let Saudi Arabians who've trained to fly planes but not to land them go flying for the next month. And stay clear of the World Trade Center, New York, on September 11!"

I might go into further detalis later. But the stakes are high in this matter. No one wants to look like a fool especially some of these scientists and physicians who have their reputations at stake on the international stage. I would think they would be as careful and through as possible and in fact all three commissions agreed and as far as i know no one has rebuked their published works. That's the scientific process at work.
The commissions did have e.g.g{ i think that's the term } experts to examine brain activity { and ruled out hallucinations }. In fact the brain activity of the visionaries is normal until the apparitions start. And moments into the apparition they all , at the same instance, change from alpha to beta or the other way around { if i can i'll post the study-i posted it here several times }. Whatever it is it is contrary to what it should be because their eyes are open. Once the apparition ends their brain activity returns to normal. The first commission ruled out any pathological brain functions. So did the other 2 commissions.
The third commission did have pyschologists and such on their staff who examined the mental health of the visionaries. They gave the visionaries a clean bill of health. And they also went further and examined their lives. At the beginning the visionaries were threaten with torture , imprisonment and death. And they put their families and village in harm's way. And the commission reached the conclusion none of them has received any financial reward or rewards for their fame. Their lives are very low key. They do give lectures but usually under the sponsership of a local church and receive no compensation. They do accept pligrams into her homes but again for very little compensation if any. If they wanted their financial potential would be unlimited. When they were little children they would miss parties , soccer games the stuff kids are into to be at the apparitions regardless of the weather or circumstances. {the circumstances in the beginning involved police and military personnel }

 

[Snozzle]

No one , as far as i know , has ever questioned that they were authentic. Even skeptic magazine and the scientific communtity from what i've read accepts them as they are.

I think you'll find that only Catholics (and Catholic-leaning) believe they really come from Mary, and not all Catholics.

The trouble with this kind of claim based on brain-wave measurements, is that we have no idea what the brain waves are supposed to be doing when someone really has an apparition.

Nor does it surprise me that very religious people in a very religious community are prepared to go to a lot of trouble to validate their religious experiences.

 

[breeze]

I think you'll find that only Catholics (and Catholic-leaning) believe they really come from Mary, and not all Catholics.

The trouble with this kind of claim based on brain-wave measurements, is that we have no idea what the brain waves are supposed to be doing when someone really has an apparition.

Nor does it surprise me that very religious people in a very religious community are prepared to go to a lot of trouble to validate their religious experiences.

The visionaries might have been very religious people. But they were only children then. I believe they were from 3 to 6 years when all this began. I don't know if they had any beliefs at that age. That i don't know. But religious worship was banned in many communist countries. There might have been places it was allowed. {like medjugorje} I would be inclined to beleive that the people of medjugorje were no more or no less relgious than anybody else. But i doubt the people of medjugorje wanted the trouble and the bombings runs that occured to stop the apparitions.
Anyway i found the study with the data. Its under my posts in case anyone wants to read if i don't get around to posting it in its entirely.