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"what makes one un-American" (cynical)

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Frnkd213, Aug 24, 2011.

  1. Frnkd213

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    Politicians today have been using the rhetoric that they are more American and represent american values thats why they should be president. That the opposition doesn't love America. Well I would like to start a thread whereby LPSG members can say what is un-American to them.

    Opposing taxing the rich- as Bachman defines the rich as millionaires and billionaires who make $250,000.00 or more. Huh?
     
  2. dandelion

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    how about being obsessively pro-american is un-American?

    We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness...but only if they are American.....and only if they interpret these rights the same way I do.

    Any country where politicians get elected by appealing to nationalism is in trouble.
     
  3. Frnkd213

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    Yes, good word obsessed. Blindly obsessed i might add
     
  4. B_enzia35

    B_enzia35 Banned

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    Democrats.:wink:

    And you Democrats here will say Republicans.
     
  5. tbrguy

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    How about being born in the UK?

    Doesn't mean I don't want the same things as your constitution promises you though...

    About time we had one; something these here today, gone tomorrow, idiot politicians can't buggar about with or over rule with some knee jerk or partisan nonsense legislation.
     
  6. D_Percy_Prettywillie

    D_Percy_Prettywillie Account Disabled

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    Do you ever post anything of any substance? Do you have a special deal with the moderating staff wherein one-liners that aren't funny and non-topical half sentences set the bar for your post quota? I'm just askin'.


    Anyone who is cavalier enough to declare the status of an entire groups patriotism strikes me as not only ignorant but disingenuous. The people most comfortable doing this seem to be either on the radio or at Fox News. Democrats aren't patriotic, liberals aren't patriotic, anyone who supports a woman's right to choose, who upholds the separating of Church and State by way of not allowing prayer in school, anyone who thinks the law should apply equally in terms of gay people getting married, people who think that teachers deserve benefits and health care- all unpatriotic.

    At one point or another Glen Beck or Rush Limbaugh or Grace Kelly or Bill O'Riley has declared each and every one of those groups either anti-American or just unpatriotic. I could turn on the news or turn on the radio right this minute and no doubt relatively quickly I'd hear about whatever new group it is destroying our way of life and how un-American their behavior was.

    While I think conservatives (specifically the ones who think God chose their political party over all the others) have the wrong idea and some of their sentimentality makes my blood boil and my skin crawl, I don't think they're unpatriotic. While I think that the members of the Tea Party are largely clinically certifiable and their capacity for understanding the machinations of the Federal Government is vastly outweighed by their self imposed ignorance and stupidity, I don't think they're un-American.

    Just because you disagree with someone or some group doesn't automatically mean you're GI Joe and they're Cobra. People that engage in politics with this mindset are outclassed in eye-rolling, gut busting ignorance only by the people they lead who have been brainwashed into thinking that is how it works.





    JSZ
     
    #6 D_Percy_Prettywillie, Aug 24, 2011
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2011
  7. sargon20

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    They've learned that 'framing the issue' is key to winning. And facts have little to do with it. 'Play the player not the ball' and you win (all the time).

    Take George W. Bush:
    'You are either with us or against us'

    The issue doesn't even matter anymore.
     
  8. dandelion

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    They seem to manage quite well to do exactly that in the US.....
     
  9. B_enzia35

    B_enzia35 Banned

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    I don't feel the need to post a graduate thesis on the fucking internet re: every post. I'm not going to change your mind, and you're not going to change mine.

    And I'm not trying to rile up anyone too much. I like it here.
     
  10. houtx48

    houtx48 Expert Member

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    Ask Carl Rove, he has the final word on all things American. Or so I have been told.
     
  11. dude_007

    dude_007 Sexy Member

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    Good one!

    However, the Democratic party existed in America before the Republican party. And I also am very tired of the "Democrats are un-American" argument, as though the members of the GOP are the only true patriots. They aren't. I am also dubious of all the potential candidates for President for the Republicans, who seem so engaged in Obama-bashing that there really isn't much other substance to their position. Yes, we know Republicans hate Obama. Stop bashing and get to specifics. Isn't lack of a plan the big complaint against Obama right now?
     
  12. Mensch1351

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    I can't believe I managed to find this -- ahhhh the internet & a Google search. Ernst Janning's speech in Judgment at Nuremberg!

    http://www.americanrhetoric.com/MovieSpeeches/moviespeechjudgmentatnuremberg1.html

    I think we're still trying to determine what constitutes American -- let alone UN-American.

    By the way -- a 5th grade Sunday School teacher I had once said to us, "We are the only nation on the face of the earth that identifies opposition to our way of life and heritage by a 'House Committee on UN-American Activities." "Can you imagine: A Committee on "un-french activities" "un-Italian activities, etc." Kind of made us laugh!

    Finally -------- I think the rhetoric we are experiencing today is dangerous to the extend that the opposition seems to have become the "enemy"! Really? Rick Perry: "I think we need a President who really loves this country!" Implication: President Obama really doesn't love this country! I absolutely, positively thought George Bush was 1 card short of a deck -- but I would have NEVER called him "the enemy!"

    As I told one of my "I'd vote for a goat if it was on the Republican ticket" friends, "You see, the big difference between you and I is that if George Bush were a Democrat, I'd be calling for his impeachment!"
     
  13. Zayne

    Zayne Banned

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    The best American is a person with good credit who spends.
    A good American is a person with bad credit who spends.
    A reviled, un-American is simply a person who doesn't spend.
     
  14. tbrguy

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    Who was that guy with the walrus moustache you parked in the UN while dubya was in charge?

    (Seemed a bit odd - appointing a UN ambassador who clearly despised the whole concept of the very institution he worked at).

    He seemed to have pretty strong views on what was and was not "American".

    Scared the daylights out of me whenever he came on the box over here...

    Oh yeah, wasn't it John Boulton, or something like that?
     
  15. Frnkd213

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    It's un-American to try and have peaceful resolution through dialogue, rather go in with our troops and show'em whose boss!

    Your not American if you are in favor of civil
    Unions, raising the debt limit- though Bush raised it several times,
    and not with the tea party- after all everyone is invited.
     
  16. B_thickjohnny

    B_thickjohnny Banned

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    As an American living in Central Europe for 16 years I have had a unique "out of body" experience. You know how it is when you float above your body and can see everything going on around you? That's how I see the US now.

    Living in the Czech Republic since 1995 and visiting prior to moving here I saw how communism "worked" - how nationalism worked. Flags were flown everywhere and there were party slogans everywhere as well. I walked through a museum to communism and saw those old posters and got a chill. They were almost exactly the same as the posters you see around the US. Be American, buy American. If you're not with us, you're against us. ... and more.

    I go to the US for visits and see flags on cars, houses, shopping centers, schools, office buildings. Posters encouraging prayers for this or that...

    Yet no one ever watches anything but Fox or CNN. No one, even those with satellite TV, won't tune in to BBC for example or, God forbid, Al Jazeera to see a different perspective.

    I personally can't stand the far right christian bullshit being spewed from people's mouths. Televangelists have brain washed Americans, IMHO. You can read about some of it here - no showering naked at an all male gym, save yourself for marriage, sex education is "damaging" to young people. I'm Catholic and I go to Mass on Sunday but thank God I think for myself and maybe thank God I was born in the 50s in New Orleans, a city that has been very relaxed when it comes to this shit. Unfortunately, the far right christians are even taking over that city. I remember Mardi Gras when being naked but in full body paint was considered being "in costume" and the police would look the other way. Now, you go to jail.

    I'm moving back but honestly I'm a bit scared. What I don't understand is why Americans allow the government to do what it does and not fight back. Friends and relatives say that it's for "our security". Bullshit! It's big brother in its purist form and no one sees it that way. Police forces now have so much power - all in the name of homeland security. Once, policemen just talked to you, warned you, ticketed you and sent you on your way. Now, you're just about taken into custody. You MUST have some form of ID on you at all time. In the UK that was never a requirement. If you were stopped and didn't have ID you were told to be at the police station with 24 hours to present your ID. In the US, you'll be arrested.

    You correct your child in the wrong way and you'll have the child protection agency knocking on your door. You get caught peeing outdoors and go to jail and labeled as a sex offender!

    Maybe I should reconsider this move.
     
    #16 B_thickjohnny, Aug 25, 2011
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2011
  17. B_enzia35

    B_enzia35 Banned

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    There y'all go again, anyone on the right will say one thing, and on the left the complete opposite!
     
  18. eurotop40

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    Move to Barcelona!
     
  19. dandelion

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    I suppose I should say, well thank god they are running the country into the ground, but somehow that does not seem like the ideal solution.
     
  20. vince

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    Seconded. If you want to stay in Europe, it doesn't get much better.
     
  21. dude_007

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    A-yup
     
  22. D_Percy_Prettywillie

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    I don't really feel like that's accurate. I think that's a generalization of disagreement. In terms of calling someone un-American? I think Timothy McVeigh was un-American. I think... Benedict Arnold? (struggling to think of examples where the definition is pretty clearly defined) was un-American. I don't think republicans are un-American even though in most cases I think they're wrong.

    Just because someone on the right says something doesn't mean I auto-disagree.

    (Sorry if that was too much of a "graduate thesis" reply Enzia.)




    JSZ
     
  23. dude_007

    dude_007 Sexy Member

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    You are such a contrarian
     
  24. D_Percy_Prettywillie

    D_Percy_Prettywillie Account Disabled

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    No I'm not!

    "The pessimist says, this is terrible! It can't get any worse! The optimist looks to him, smiles and says, Oh yes, it can."


    :)



    JSZ
     
  25. dandelion

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    So as distinct from a slanging match accusing each other of being un-american, what values are 'american'?
     
  26. Horrible

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    Speaking lots of English. All the time.
     
  27. D_Percy_Prettywillie

    D_Percy_Prettywillie Account Disabled

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    "Values" are subjective. What one American deems virtuous and moral another might define in wholly different terms. There isn't an uncontested set of values which all Americans agree form the core of our society. Some people might say the Constitution is that list but not all Americans agree with every part of the constitution (specifically its interpretation by the Judicial branch and its enactment by the legislative branch.)

    Being "Pro-America" is just like being pro any other country- it's patriotism.

    “Patriotism is the belief your country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it.” -George Bernard Shaw-

    We don't say "God save the Queen." Our version of that is "God bless America." It's just... rhetoric that equates to nationalistic patriotism, typically drummed up (in the case of politicians anyway) to win elections. The notable exception? (And you might be able to blame this on how young I was) September 11th;

    It seemed like for a while there we were all pulling under the same ore. In my life time that's as close as I've seen to truly national unity; we weren't liberals and conservatives, northerners and southerners, gays and straights et all.- for a while there it just felt like we were all Americans. (Again, I was like... 14 when that happened so I don't have the most "worldly" interpretation of the country immediately afterward.)




    JSZ
     
  28. mephistopheles

    mephistopheles Expert Member

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    It's true to an extent that there was a sense of national patriotism for a bit, but the incidents on 9/11 were of course HUGE instruments that president elects tried to use to push their campaigns. Manipulating a person's patriotism and emotions over a national tragedy to sway elections your way is as despicable as anything.

    A lot of people were insanely mad that the ground zero area was opened shortly after the incident, the amounts of poison in the air at the time were staggeringly unhealthy. They didn't want to look weak though right?

    And things were immediately torn apart *I think* when a lot of people stopped believing that what the gov't said about 9/11 was 100% true.

    Not an outright lie, just not all true.
     
    #28 mephistopheles, Aug 26, 2011
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2011
  29. dandelion

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    Not telling the truth rapidly undermines trust in politicians. The problem is that there arent any honest ones either to turn to. In the Uk UKIP, an anti european minority party, sometimes says some of the most honest things spoken by politicians. They tend to speak out when something goes wrong with the EU. Unfortunately for them, despite their honesty and the plentiful faults to be pointed out in the Eu, I dont see any viable alternative. So that leaves us with a choice between the liars.

    The amercian response to 9/11 was to embark upon a series of foreign wars which had nothing to do with solving their home security problem. Not to mention disproportionate to the damage caused, which is miniscule in the context of the US as a whole. The whole incident made the US security services look utter fools.

    wiki says you say for the president"
    Hail to the Chief we have chosen for the nation,
    Hail to the Chief! We salute him, one and all.
    Hail to the Chief, as we pledge cooperation
    In proud fulfillment of a great, noble call."

    or possibly for the nation "
    O! say can you see by the dawn’s early light,
    What so proudly we hailed at the twilight’s last gleaming,
    Whose broad stripes and bright stars through the perilous fight,
    O’er the ramparts we watched, were so gallantly streaming?
    And the rockets’ red glare, the bombs bursting in air,
    Gave proof through the night that our flag was still there;
    O! say does that star-spangled banner yet wave,
    O’er the land of the free and the home of the brave?"

    Sounds like a fight.

    By comparison "
    God save our gracious Queen,
    Long live our noble Queen,God save the Queen:
    Send her victorious,Happy and glorious,
    Long to reign over us:God save the Queen."

    Is a song for a load of pacifists. I guess a country born in revolution still chooses to define itself militarily.

    even "
    Land of Hope and Glory, Mother of the Free,
    How shall we extol thee, who are born of thee?
    Wider still and wider shall thy bounds be set;
    God, who made thee mighty, make thee mightier yet,
    God, who made thee mighty, make thee mightier yet."

    is pretty back-patting rather than belligerent.

    And then even 'Rule Britannia' goes on about divine right rather than retribution or extolling the virtues of warfare."
    When Britain first, at Heaven's command
    Arose from out the azure main;
    This was the charter of the land,
    And guardian angels sang this strain:
    "Rule, Britannia! rule the waves:"
    Britons never will be slaves." "

    But it is more a matter of how seriously you take all this jingoistic stuff.

    War is always helpfull for national unity. Ask A Hitler. Not so good for clear thinking.
     
    #29 dandelion, Aug 26, 2011
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2011
  30. eurotop40

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    Hymns and reality are often very contradicting. So a national anthem can sound very pacifist and belong to the most aggressive or colonial country. Other hymns may sound very bellicose just because they belong to a country that had to fight to free themselves from oppressors but that would never think of invading anyone (e.g. Poland Polish National Anthem + English Subtitles - YouTube).
     
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