"what makes one un-American" (cynical)

D_Percy_Prettywillie

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I don't really feel like that's accurate. I think that's a generalization of disagreement. In terms of calling someone un-American? I think Timothy McVeigh was un-American. I think... Benedict Arnold? (struggling to think of examples where the definition is pretty clearly defined) was un-American. I don't think republicans are un-American even though in most cases I think they're wrong.

Just because someone on the right says something doesn't mean I auto-disagree.

(Sorry if that was too much of a "graduate thesis" reply Enzia.)




JSZ
 

D_Percy_Prettywillie

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So as distinct from a slanging match accusing each other of being un-american, what values are 'american'?

"Values" are subjective. What one American deems virtuous and moral another might define in wholly different terms. There isn't an uncontested set of values which all Americans agree form the core of our society. Some people might say the Constitution is that list but not all Americans agree with every part of the constitution (specifically its interpretation by the Judicial branch and its enactment by the legislative branch.)

Being "Pro-America" is just like being pro any other country- it's patriotism.

“Patriotism is the belief your country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it.” -George Bernard Shaw-

We don't say "God save the Queen." Our version of that is "God bless America." It's just... rhetoric that equates to nationalistic patriotism, typically drummed up (in the case of politicians anyway) to win elections. The notable exception? (And you might be able to blame this on how young I was) September 11th;

It seemed like for a while there we were all pulling under the same ore. In my life time that's as close as I've seen to truly national unity; we weren't liberals and conservatives, northerners and southerners, gays and straights et all.- for a while there it just felt like we were all Americans. (Again, I was like... 14 when that happened so I don't have the most "worldly" interpretation of the country immediately afterward.)




JSZ
 

mephistopheles

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It's just... rhetoric that equates to nationalistic patriotism, typically drummed up (in the case of politicians anyway) to win elections. The notable exception? (And you might be able to blame this on how young I was) September 11th;

It seemed like for a while there we were all pulling under the same ore. In my life time that's as close as I've seen to truly national unity; we weren't liberals and conservatives, northerners and southerners, gays and straights et all.- for a while there it just felt like we were all Americans. (Again, I was like... 14 when that happened so I don't have the most "worldly" interpretation of the country immediately afterward.)




JSZ

It's true to an extent that there was a sense of national patriotism for a bit, but the incidents on 9/11 were of course HUGE instruments that president elects tried to use to push their campaigns. Manipulating a person's patriotism and emotions over a national tragedy to sway elections your way is as despicable as anything.

A lot of people were insanely mad that the ground zero area was opened shortly after the incident, the amounts of poison in the air at the time were staggeringly unhealthy. They didn't want to look weak though right?

And things were immediately torn apart *I think* when a lot of people stopped believing that what the gov't said about 9/11 was 100% true.

Not an outright lie, just not all true.
 
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dandelion

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Not telling the truth rapidly undermines trust in politicians. The problem is that there arent any honest ones either to turn to. In the Uk UKIP, an anti european minority party, sometimes says some of the most honest things spoken by politicians. They tend to speak out when something goes wrong with the EU. Unfortunately for them, despite their honesty and the plentiful faults to be pointed out in the Eu, I dont see any viable alternative. So that leaves us with a choice between the liars.

The amercian response to 9/11 was to embark upon a series of foreign wars which had nothing to do with solving their home security problem. Not to mention disproportionate to the damage caused, which is miniscule in the context of the US as a whole. The whole incident made the US security services look utter fools.

We don't say "God save the Queen."
wiki says you say for the president"
Hail to the Chief we have chosen for the nation,
Hail to the Chief! We salute him, one and all.
Hail to the Chief, as we pledge cooperation
In proud fulfillment of a great, noble call."

or possibly for the nation "
O! say can you see by the dawn’s early light,
What so proudly we hailed at the twilight’s last gleaming,
Whose broad stripes and bright stars through the perilous fight,
O’er the ramparts we watched, were so gallantly streaming?
And the rockets’ red glare, the bombs bursting in air,
Gave proof through the night that our flag was still there;
O! say does that star-spangled banner yet wave,
O’er the land of the free and the home of the brave?"

Sounds like a fight.

By comparison "
God save our gracious Queen,
Long live our noble Queen,God save the Queen:
Send her victorious,Happy and glorious,
Long to reign over us:God save the Queen."

Is a song for a load of pacifists. I guess a country born in revolution still chooses to define itself militarily.

even "
Land of Hope and Glory, Mother of the Free,
How shall we extol thee, who are born of thee?
Wider still and wider shall thy bounds be set;
God, who made thee mighty, make thee mightier yet,
God, who made thee mighty, make thee mightier yet."

is pretty back-patting rather than belligerent.

And then even 'Rule Britannia' goes on about divine right rather than retribution or extolling the virtues of warfare."
When Britain first, at Heaven's command
Arose from out the azure main;
This was the charter of the land,
And guardian angels sang this strain:
"Rule, Britannia! rule the waves:"
Britons never will be slaves." "

But it is more a matter of how seriously you take all this jingoistic stuff.

It seemed like for a while there we were all pulling under the same ore. In my life time that's as close as I've seen to truly national unity; we weren't liberals and conservatives, northerners and southerners, gays and straights et all.- for a while there it just felt like we were all Americans.
War is always helpfull for national unity. Ask A Hitler. Not so good for clear thinking.
 
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eurotop40

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Not telling the truth rapidly undermines trust in politicians. The problem is that there arent any honest ones either to turn to. In the Uk UKIP, an anti european minority party, sometimes says some of the most honest things spoken by politicians. They tend to speak out when something goes wrong with the EU. Unfortunately for them, despite their honesty and the plentiful faults to be pointed out in the Eu, I dont see any viable alternative. So that leaves us with a choice between the liars.

The amercian response to 9/11 was to embark upon a series of foreign wars which had nothing to do with solving their home security problem. Not to mention disproportionate to the damage caused, which is miniscule in the context of the US as a whole. The whole incident made the US security services look utter fools.

wiki says you say for the president"
Hail to the Chief we have chosen for the nation,
Hail to the Chief! We salute him, one and all.
Hail to the Chief, as we pledge cooperation
In proud fulfillment of a great, noble call."

or possibly for the nation "
O! say can you see by the dawn’s early light,
What so proudly we hailed at the twilight’s last gleaming,
Whose broad stripes and bright stars through the perilous fight,
O’er the ramparts we watched, were so gallantly streaming?
And the rockets’ red glare, the bombs bursting in air,
Gave proof through the night that our flag was still there;
O! say does that star-spangled banner yet wave,
O’er the land of the free and the home of the brave?"

Sounds like a fight.

By comparison "
God save our gracious Queen,
Long live our noble Queen,God save the Queen:
Send her victorious,Happy and glorious,
Long to reign over us:God save the Queen."

Is a song for a load of pacifists. I guess a country born in revolution still chooses to define itself militarily.

even "
Land of Hope and Glory, Mother of the Free,
How shall we extol thee, who are born of thee?
Wider still and wider shall thy bounds be set;
God, who made thee mighty, make thee mightier yet,
God, who made thee mighty, make thee mightier yet."

is pretty back-patting rather than belligerent.

And then even 'Rule Britannia' goes on about divine right rather than retribution or extolling the virtues of warfare."
When Britain first, at Heaven's command
Arose from out the azure main;
This was the charter of the land,
And guardian angels sang this strain:
"Rule, Britannia! rule the waves:"
Britons never will be slaves." "

But it is more a matter of how seriously you take all this jingoistic stuff.

War is always helpfull for national unity. Ask A Hitler. Not so good for clear thinking.

Hymns and reality are often very contradicting. So a national anthem can sound very pacifist and belong to the most aggressive or colonial country. Other hymns may sound very bellicose just because they belong to a country that had to fight to free themselves from oppressors but that would never think of invading anyone (e.g. Poland Polish National Anthem + English Subtitles - YouTube).
 

Mensch1351

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Speaking lots of English. All the time.

hmmmmmmmm. Just a little historically in-accurate. In my home town lots of Croatian was spoken. An old woman I met who spoke with a HEAVY German accent responded to my question, "When did you first come to this country?" "I vas born here!" Near Russell, KS -- heavy German Russian immigrant population.

And as an aside -- you can thank the business people of this nation for the "Press 1 for English." They wanted the Dinero the Hispanics are making here. AND take note: by the 3rd generation, most immigrants speak exclusively English -- there are just tooooooo many of us!
 

Horrible

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hmmmmmmmm. Just a little historically in-accurate. In my home town lots of Croatian was spoken. An old woman I met who spoke with a HEAVY German accent responded to my question, "When did you first come to this country?" "I vas born here!" Near Russell, KS -- heavy German Russian immigrant population.

And as an aside -- you can thank the business people of this nation for the "Press 1 for English." They wanted the Dinero the Hispanics are making here. AND take note: by the 3rd generation, most immigrants speak exclusively English -- there are just tooooooo many of us!

I hate to state the obvious. But, it was a joke. I was joking.
 
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how about being obsessively pro-american is un-American?

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness...but only if they are American.....and only if they interpret these rights the same way I do.

Any country where politicians get elected by appealing to nationalism is in trouble.


That sort of behaviour was once classed and still is as McCarthyism. Seems politicians over there are the ones for the short memories, hope not the electorate.
 

cruztbone

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how is supporting the enforcement of our constitution unamerican? that is Obama does. apparently, many of you have never read the document. Obama has taught it at the university level. i have taught it at the high school level. Obama is as American as any president who has served, if not more so. apparently, gov. perry (according to Yahoo news) wants to repeal the 16th and 17th amendment. respectively, they created popular election of US senators and created the federal income tax that pays to operate our nation. in my view, Perry is an UNamerican as you can get. oh, and lets not forget his speech last year promoting TEXAS secession from the union. NOT American, not presidential and not happening.
 

Frnkd213

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how is supporting the enforcement of our constitution unamerican? that is Obama does. apparently, many of you have never read the document. Obama has taught it at the university level. i have taught it at the high school level. Obama is as American as any president who has served, if not more so. apparently, gov. perry (according to Yahoo news) wants to repeal the 16th and 17th amendment. respectively, they created popular election of US senators and created the federal income tax that pays to operate our nation. in my view, Perry is an UNamerican as you can get. oh, and lets not forget his speech last year promoting TEXAS secession from the union. NOT American, not presidential and not happening.

The guy(perry) is nuts. What's worst is that he has the most Republican supporters than the other republican candidates, According to polls ( for what it's worth) why is it hard for people to see through these guys? Is this an example of stupidity, desperation, of nazi Germany's beginnings(the flavor though extreme is rife with similarities), the kingfish Huey Long(though probably a federalist, was doctoral in his approach)
Wake up America there are darker clouds lurking if we don't heed the historical warnings!
 

B_enzia35

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The same could be said with Obama.

Lots of immigrants from Communist countries are terrified of how similar things are when shit hit their own countries.
 

Klingsor

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The same could be said with Obama.

Lots of immigrants from Communist countries are terrified of how similar things are when shit hit their own countries.

So you're saying Obama is . . . Lenin? Stalin? Mao Zedong?

Sigh . . . sometimes I wonder why I even bother to read these threads. :frown1:
 

B_enzia35

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There's more people to the left of center here, you're among friends. Imagine how I or other right of center members feel.