What should I do?

[Smooth88]

I got into an arguement with my friend (who I really like) last night which started when I agreed with her that she was "not that smart". I tried to apologize multiple times and drop it but she insisted that i say why and give examples so i tried to hoping she would drop it but then she went into a conniption and essentially proceeded to break me down. So now I feel terrible saying what I realize I shouldn't have said that. My problem is I get too honest with my opinions. Now I feel extremely bad. I haven't been able to sleep. And she hasnt accepted any of my apologies. I know I'm wrong but I didn't even mean what I said in a negative light and I would never EVER do anything to hurt her.

What should I do?

 

[Hippie Hollow Girl]

Looks like you are between a rock and a hard place.

This is one of those little life's lessons that you will have to learn the hard way. There's nothing wrong with being honest with your opinions with yourself...... but you have to be careful when other people's feelings are involved. Especially if you want to continue having a good relationship with that person.

There are different things you can do.......Give her a week or some time to forget about what was said......

You can tell her that you are really the one that is not that smart when it comes to maintaning friendships with people that you care about.

You probably need to counter any negative that you did.......by telling her exactly what qualities that you like about her. (Focus on the positive)

Good luck,

My brain is fried and that is all I can think of at the moment

 

[HazelGod]

I got into an arguement with my friend (who I really like) last night which started when I agreed with her that she was "not that smart".

Goddamn, dude...why didn't ya just tell her she was fat while you were at it! :tongue:

You probably need to counter any negative that you did.......by telling her exactly what qualities that you like about her. (Focus on the positive)

While I won't presume to know how girls think, I believe my hometown girl is right on the money with her advice. Don't keep bringing up what you said...apologize for hurting her feelings, and then compliment things about her that are positive. And mean it, for both.

 

[B_andyo]

dumb people never accept reality. And therefore can't understand nor accept apologies? lol

 

[SandraSmithCarver]

I got into an arguement with my friend (who I really like) last night which started when I agreed with her that she was "not that smart". I tried to apologize multiple times and drop it but she insisted that i say why and give examples so i tried to hoping she would drop it but then she went into a conniption and essentially proceeded to break me down. So now I feel terrible saying what I realize I shouldn't have said that. My problem is I get too honest with my opinions. Now I feel extremely bad. I haven't been able to sleep. And she hasnt accepted any of my apologies. I know I'm wrong but I didn't even mean what I said in a negative light and I would never EVER do anything to hurt her.

What should I do?

theres a way to be honest, and theres a way that is just rude-THINK before you speak man

 

[Phil Ayesho]

sorry...
I think he did the right thing.


Anyone going around saying things like "i'm just not that smart"... is manipulative and disingenuous. ( unless they are genuinely making fun of themselves... which she clearly was not)

She was prompting you for a compliment... essentially putting herself down to force you to build her up...


This is game playing bullshit.

That she got upset proves that she was lying... she doesn't REALLY feel she isn't smart... she thinks she's brilliant... smart enough to manipulate you into saying just what she wants you to say, and when you didn't, she got angry....

Her anger is not over the fact that you don't think she's smart... its that you didn't play the role she had written for you in her head.

Don't apologize.
Tell her that if she thinks you're one of her tea party dolls who will do and say exactly what she wants you to do and say on command, then she had better rethink that drink.



unfortunately, one of the biggest sources of drama between women and men is that many women really don't want to hear how a man feels or what he thinks.
They want you to express the things that they feel you OUGHT to express... and if you vary from their script, you get in trouble.

Its why men start out talking just as much as women, but by age 40, have learned the hard way to keep their mouths shut and not say what they think or feel.

I say, when you run across a woman who is trying to control what and how you say, who is trying to operate your mouth and mind remotely...

nip it in the bud...

 

[Gillette]

^^^^^Snarly but contains a nugget of truth.

I don't agree with his suggestion of how to handle it but I do agree she was trying to manipulate a compliment or some sympathy out of you. My suggestion would be to apologize for hurting her feelings but not for what you said. The truth may hurt but maybe there are areas she needs to look at.

*shrug*

Look, everyone has things they are and aren't smart about.

Maybe she's smart with money but dumb with relationships?

Maybe she has great reasoning skills but can't spell worth a damn?



On the bright side, if she's a complete airhead she'll have forgotten by morning.:smile:

 

[D_Gunther Snotpole]

Anyone going around saying things like "i'm just not that smart"... is manipulative and disingenuous. ( unless they are genuinely making fun of themselves... which she clearly was not)

How do you know she doesn't very sincerely believe that she is stupid ... and hopes that the OP will soften that impression she has of herself?

 

[B_Demention]

The wound is just a little too fresh, and nothing you say right now is going to cut it. I would leave it for a while. Give it a week or so, then tell her you're an obstinate ass at times and like to think that your way is best, but that you took it a little far. Make it sound like you were being your typical hard-headed guy, and that obviously she's smart or you wouldn't be hanging out with her. If you guys are even halfway decent friends, it'll work itself out.

Incidentally though, I think Phil is half right. I don't really believe in apologizing for something that you genuinely feel. Maybe you were out of line, but you did have a certain conviction at the time that made you believe it. People always respect those who stand by what they say. A little regret is alright, but don't bend over backwards trying to please her. That's why I think it's best to go middle of the road here - ie. that what you said simply came out wrong but that you'd like to bury the hatchet - without sounding like a groveling idiot.

 

[Principessa]

I got into an arguement with my friend (who I really like) last night which started when I agreed with her that she was "not that smart". I tried to apologize multiple times and drop it but she insisted that i say why and give examples so i tried to hoping she would drop it but then she went into a conniption and essentially proceeded to break me down. So now I feel terrible saying what I realize I shouldn't have said that. My problem is I get too honest with my opinions. Now I feel extremely bad. I haven't been able to sleep. And she hasnt accepted any of my apologies. I know I'm wrong but I didn't even mean what I said in a negative light and I would never EVER do anything to hurt her.

What should I do?

Dude, that was phenomenally stupid. :tongue: Are you sure she is the one that is "not that smart?" Honesty is one thing intentional cruelty is another. You may as well forget any chance of having sex with her, assuming that was even on your mind.

 

[yngjock20]

I don't think you should ever agree with a woman if she self-depricates. It's just not an intelligent thing to do.

It's like if I said "Damn, black people are ugly." (which I'd never say, btw) and a white friend said, "Yeah, I know!"

If I wasn't 100% sure that friend was being sarcastic, there'd be some smoke in the city.

I also agree with NJ, you ain't gettin' no part of that cookie anytime soon, playa.

 

[yurkon]

The wound is just a little too fresh, and nothing you say right now is going to cut it. I would leave it for a while. Give it a week or so, then tell her you're an obstinate ass at times and like to think that your way is best, but that you took it a little far. Make it sound like you were being your typical hard-headed guy, and that obviously she's smart or you wouldn't be hanging out with her. If you guys are even halfway decent friends, it'll work itself out.

Incidentally though, I think Phil is half right. I don't really believe in apologizing for something that you genuinely feel. Maybe you were out of line, but you did have a certain conviction at the time that made you believe it. People always respect those who stand by what they say. A little regret is alright, but don't bend over backwards trying to please her. That's why I think it's best to go middle of the road here - ie. that what you said simply came out wrong but that you'd like to bury the hatchet - without sounding like a groveling idiot.

Great reply! It allows everyone to save face. Somehow I wish there was a way for her to get over it without you wondering in the future when she asks about it again, or if looks like she lost weight etc.

I would, probably not you, would mention that if we want to have a really honest relationship, there are many types of smart and say what those types are. Perhaps social skills, general knowledge, ability to memorize vs figure things out on the fly etc.

She definitely didn't want the truth so you are at a crossroads in the relationship to a degree.
In the future: Do you want to shade the truth to save her feelings? Does she want that too? If you both want the same thing, it will work out. If it really bugs you to be less than totally honest, then she shouldn't ask questions that are those "set up" questions.

I have a friend who really likes my honesty. Long ago she asked me if she was fat. She was. She was overweight by 50+ pounds and not toned anywhere. I told her she was. She went on to say that she asked other people and they said "maybe a little" etc.

She went on to ask me what she could do and really wanted to know. She changed her eating habits and joined a gym and joined a college team sport. She really wanted to change and wasn't looking for reassurance. Good for her.

That made our relationship stronger actually and she'll stop by over similar things because she knows I'll tell her the truth when others won't. She even she prepares herself for absolute honesty and won't ask if she doesn't want the truth.

Since the original question we've been really close.

 

[christina]

w/e man if ya'll are really friends then she should know that u are a very honest type of person and if she cant handle or understand that then she shouldnt say stupid things like that. Im a very honest person and all my friends know and respect that if they didnt like it then they wouldnt hang round me. dont apologize for telling the truth!

if all u want is a piece of ass then beg at her feet.

 

[Phil Ayesho]

How do you know she doesn't very sincerely believe that she is stupid ... and hopes that the OP will soften that impression she has of herself?

I don't think the state of her intellectual capacity is even pertinent.

Suppose she really IS stupid... is it our hero's job to lie to her about that fact?

Even if she was a genius... she deserved to be told she was stupid for pulling such a needy, manipulative ploy.

Pitching a fit because someone AGREES with something you said...because you only said it to get them to say the opposite, IS stupid.

Just because she says, "pull my finger" do you HAVE to just because you know refusing will cause her to fly off the handle and punish you emotionally for days, weeks or years?



Get this thru your heads, fellas.... they are not mad about what you said... they are mad that you didn't say what they WANTED you to say.


Men pandering to this kind of emotional blackmail is WHY talking with most women is such a minefield.

Apologizing and making nice is essentially telling her " sorry, I fucked up, next time you can count on me to read your mind and say exactly what I am supposed to say to stay on the right side of your emotional storms".


Its a power play. Nothing more, nothing less.
The right to think independently... or forever play "guess what I'm thinking you ought to say".

 

[HazelGod]

Men pandering to this kind of emotional blackmail is WHY talking with most women is such a minefield.

Apologizing and making nice is essentially telling her " sorry, I fucked up, next time you can count on me to read your mind and say exactly what I am supposed to say to stay on the right side of your emotional storms".

Actually, I think that's a misunderstanding that creates the "minefield" atmosphere more than anything.

Apologizing does not necessarily mean "making nice." I've always been very careful with a few turns of phrase that I feel should carry an enormous amount of meaning, but have been incredibly cheapened by their flippant overuse. Those are I love you and I am sorry.

These words just fall off people's lips without their paying any attention to what they mean...or what they should mean.

An apology is just that...an expression of regret. If you've said or done something that injured another's feelings, and you truly regret having inflicted the injury, then you might offer your apology. Empathizing with another human being is almost never a bad thing. By apologizing, you acknowledge that you have caused a harm and feel regret for it...but it doesn't necessarily invalidate the truth of what you said or did that caused the hurt. Apologizing is not the same as saying you were wrong, or you fucked up, though the two are often conjoined as in your example.

The "making nice" aspect is something else...I don't know where that shit comes from, but it isn't part and parcel of an apology. My feeling regret over hurting someone doesn't entitle them to restitution of any sort, emotional or otherwise. It doesn't give them any IOU or elevated moral ground in some indeterminate future conflict.

I feel this is the key distinction between adolescent game-playing and adult mentality. Once an apology is offered, it's up to both parties to then figure out how to proceed. If you treat it like a strategic game of blinkmanship, well then that's the kind of bullshit relationship you're in for. If you refuse to submit to such emotional blackmail, then you have a much better outlook for keeping a meaningful relationship.

 

[Phil Ayesho]

I agree with you.

My response was predicated upon the severity of HER reaction.

There is a difference between saying I am sorry my honesty was hurtful to you... and saying I won't ever do it again.

But the OP makes note that apologies did not help...


To me, this makes this nothing more than one person punishing another for not doing as he was supposed to do.

As men, how many of us have had to endure emotional abuse for not toeing the line laid down by some woman in our lives?

If you help with the dishes, you are in trouble for not doing it right, if you don't, you are in trouble for not helping... the idiom of "damned if you do and damned if you don't" was coined to refer to this very dynamic.


What it comes down to is little girls, growing up playing with dolls... they reach adulthood with the belief that they are the final authority on how people should speak, act, and think.... because their dolls always played every scene exactly as they were supposed to...

They walk thru life laying verbal traps for everyone to step in... but its predicated in a belief that their expectations of life OUGHT to be fullfilled... and when they are not, there will be hell to pay.


As men, we have largely fallen down in our obligation to disabuse young women of this manipulative mentality.

Because we don't want to be in trouble... because we want sex.... we tend to cave in... and allow the behavior to be reinforced.


The cause is simple... people asking a question which they know full well has only one answer they will accept.

And emotionally savaging those who fail the test.


The sooner we, as a gender, refuse to put up with it... the sooner we will actually be equals in our own relationships.

 

[D_Gunther Snotpole]

Anyone going around saying things like "i'm just not that smart"... is manipulative and disingenuous. ( unless they are genuinely making fun of themselves... which she clearly was not).

How do you know she doesn't very sincerely believe that she is stupid ... and hopes that the OP will soften that impression she has of herself?

I don't think the state of her intellectual capacity is even pertinent.

I am not talking about the state of her intellectual capacity. I am talking about a belief she claims to have about herself.
Her question might be manipulative and disingenuous, but equally, or even more likely, might be nothing of the kind.
People are very insecure, and they do need reassurances of various kinds.

Suppose she really IS stupid... is it our hero's job to lie to her about that fact?

It might be 'skillful means' to avoid telling her that, ol' Buddhist Phil

Even if she was a genius... she deserved to be told she was stupid for pulling such a needy, manipulative ploy.

Do you really like to cause people pain? Do you not see how doing so causes you pain?

Pitching a fit because someone AGREES with something you said...because you only said it to get them to say the opposite, IS stupid.

The transaction is not that simple, and you know that. Or at least I hope you do.

Get this thru your heads, fellas.... they are not mad about what you said... they are mad that you didn't say what they WANTED you to say.

Please, tell me what the difference is?

Men pandering to this kind of emotional blackmail is WHY talking with most women is such a minefield.

Knowing how to deal with this 'emotional blackmail' (O! what an overwrought young fellow you are) is merely a sign that you have graduated from emotional kindergarten, Phil.
The good news: It can happen at any age.
Nonetheless, there is something of a game-playing element, if a woman requires this kind of treatment constantly.
One can always leave at that point.

Apologizing and making nice is essentially telling her " sorry, I fucked up, next time you can count on me to read your mind and say exactly what I am supposed to say to stay on the right side of your emotional storms".

Well, you're certainly no mind reader ... and you seem to divine what her wishes were. Or you say you do. Pretend you do.
(But I think you do, Phil.)

 

[Phil Ayesho]

I am not talking about the state of her intellectual capacity. I am talking about a belief she claims to have about herself.
Her question might be manipulative and disingenuous, but equally, or even more likely, might be nothing of the kind.
People are very insecure, and they do need reassurances of various kinds.

If that were the case, her response would not have been anger, but sadness, tears, or questions as to why he thought so...

She did not ask him if he thought she was stupid... she made a statement.

How many statements have you made that, when people agree with you, you react to with anger?

Consider what kind of thing must be in your mind to make a statement that others must disagree with , or you will be mad?

She knew exactly what she was doing and what she wanted... she could have asked for reinforcement, support, sympathy... or any other direct and honest communication.

She chose as she chose and she got angry that it didn't play in reality as she expected.

It might be 'skillful means' to avoid telling her that, ol' Buddhist Phil....Do you really like to cause people pain? Do you not see how doing so causes you pain?

ah... but I am not a buddhist. And I don't think emotional pain is all that bad if it enriches you in some way.
I would not have missed having my heart broken.
And my public humiliation of getting caught at having cheated on an elementary school test made me a better person.

In this case... playing along with her expectations of others is allowing her to continue her attachment to her own expectations of others. It is encouraging her that her expectations are valid, and righteous.

Sooner or later she will have to realize that other human beings are not her personal barbie collection.
If the OP did not feel like being played like a pipe organ, he has the honorable opportunity to illuminate that fact for her.

He cares about her, he loves her, and he was honest....

If she cared about anything other than herself, that is what should matter...

The transaction is not that simple, and you know that. Or at least I hope you do.

Yes it is that simple, Senor... explain to me what other possible factor plays into it other than expectation?
Living in the covenant of expectation is to live in suffering, and to be a creator of suffering for others.

Spiritual practice in a social setting is not about making it easy for others to continue as they are... its about opening their eyes. Rinzai!!

Please, tell me what the difference is?

Getting mad over what you said means that she disagrees with your perspective..

Getting mad because you didn't say what she wanted you to say means she disagrees that you should even have a perspective. That the only correct perspective is Hers... ( and, in this case, she is even misrepresenting her true perspective... as a trap. )

The former at least involves you.
The latter is all about her.

Knowing how to deal with this 'emotional blackmail' (O! what an overwrought young fellow you are) is merely a sign that you have graduated from emotional kindergarten, Phil.

Please.
What you suggest is that the solution to emotional blackmail is play along?
I am suggesting that the solution is to refuse to play along.

You pay the ransom, they ask for more ransom.
You refuse to pay the ransom... the manipulation ends right there.

I am not saying you have to be particularly harsh... I am saying that you have to frustrate their expectations of you, when those expectations do not align with your actual feelings or thoughts.

I am saying that you have to be yourself...

Raising good children is easy. You do not lie to them... you do not demand of them anything you are not will to live up to yourself... but the most important part of raising children is to realize that ALL children are little manipulation engines...
All they do is try to figure out strategies for getting what they want.


And the only real power any parent has is that for their first 8 or 10 years, you get to choose which of the strategies they come up with you are going to allow to be successful.

Pitching a fit? nope... you frustrate that strategy and they will try another.
You KEEP frustrating their strategies until they come up with one that is ethical and honest.

I HAVE graduated from emotional kindergarten, Senor... that is why when I am faced with childish emotional behavior... I refuse to be controlled and assess the situation as an adult.

Adults do not throw a hissy fit for not getting their way.

I don't cotton to it, I don't stroke their little egos... I send them for a time out, like the willful little children they are.


Its simply an exercise in Right Action.
An exercise in parenting.

Well, you're certainly no mind reader ... and you seem to divine what her wishes were. Or you say you do. Pretend you do.
(But I think you do, Phil.)

Something does come from being 50.

When I was young I had no idea of any of this... It took a lot of living, learning, and observing... and some pretty dramatic relationships...

but people are like performance artworks..

If you want to understand the mind of the performer... look at the choices they make.

 

[strike4]

In many respects I agree with Phil's first posting about this... And, if this woman is going to get so hurt by someone else's opinion about her, then I would find it hard to respect her.

However, Yurkon also has a good point. There's got to be something about her that is smart (interpersonal communication, visually creative, etc.) otherwise you wouldn't even care about hanging out with her. I think that you might be able to mend things if you qualified your answer to something like:

"When I said that I was only talking about "book smart." Let's be honest - you got 200 on your SATS. But, obviously some people who have "book smarts" are really dumb in other ways, or they would have their lives totally figured out. You are really smart about [X] in ways that I am not, and that's why I appreciate you so much."

Or something along those lines. If she still insists on emotionally manipulating you and doesn't take it as an adult, cut and run.

 

[D_Ed69s girl]

I got into an arguement with my friend (who I really like) last night which started when I agreed with her that she was "not that smart". I tried to apologize multiple times and drop it but she insisted that i say why and give examples so i tried to hoping she would drop it but then she went into a conniption and essentially proceeded to break me down. So now I feel terrible saying what I realize I shouldn't have said that. My problem is I get too honest with my opinions. Now I feel extremely bad. I haven't been able to sleep. And she hasnt accepted any of my apologies. I know I'm wrong but I didn't even mean what I said in a negative light and I would never EVER do anything to hurt her.

What should I do?

Sweety, I don't know what others have said on this thread but honestly it would not of mattered what you said to her. She was looking for something that you didn't have a clue what it was.

It is a double edge sword, much like "does this dress make me look fat". There is no real good answer to this problem.

Personally I don't feel being honest is a bad thing. I must admit sometime when I am too honest I get my butt in trouble and yeah I lose sleep sometimes. But truthfully I have to be that honest or I would feel I wasn't being fair to those I care about.

I feel that sometime women have a bad habit of over reacting. We look for things that we haven't really asked for. How is a guy suppose to know what we really are looking for when we ask those stupid questions.