What will happen to Greece?

Drifterwood

Superior Member
Joined
Jun 14, 2007
Posts
18,678
Media
0
Likes
2,812
Points
333
Location
Greece
Greece's crime is just a clever version of putting a Euro note in a photocopy machine.

It must be an old one, because the newer ones have been programmed to recognise currency and not copy :smile:.

Any Mint isn't really much more than a photocopier. It's still all based on trust/credit. The problem is that when we first used the idea of paper money, we were expanding and needed the credit, now we are just consuming. Well not just consuming, but the balance has shifted.

To underwrite our over consumption, we give other things notional value and borrow against that. Lose trust in that notional value and you have a pack of cards.

Germany has done very well out of the Euro and it can continue to do so, but Greece is a very timely lesson in the responsibility of fiscal control.
 

dandelion

Superior Member
Verified
Gold
Joined
Sep 25, 2009
Posts
13,297
Media
21
Likes
2,705
Points
358
Location
UK
Verification
View
Sexuality
100% Gay, 0% Straight
Gender
Male
If Greece is allowed to default (now inevitable if not subsidised by the Eurozone for say a decade) then the reasonable conclusion is that other Eurozone countries would be allowed to default. The risk premium on bonds issued by these countries must become greater making them more expensive. A Greek default would lead to a Portuguese default (without robust Eurozone action, which must actually happen before a Geek default if it is to work). The domino effect is very powerful. Spain, Italy and Ireland seem pretty certain casualties.
This may or may not be true, but it has nothing to do with these countries using the same currency.

If Greece defaults - a 100% default - and (hypothetically) does not leave the Euro then every nation using the Euro must also default.
er why?

You seem to be missing the point. The euro does not belong to any country. It is an independent thing. Its like saying that if 100 years ago Greece was on the gold standard, then Britain and the Us too would be bust because the Greek government had defaulted on its loans and they were on the gold standard too. No, they wouldnt. Or like saying that because RBS went bust and RBS is a british bank borrowing in sterling, then the British government was also bust. No, the pound carried on regardless, as did the british government. Major waves, but the problem had nothing to do with the bank happening to use the same currency.

The euro is a game changer in currency. It is just like a return to the gold standard. The euro has an intrinsic value in and of itself which is independant of any one currency which uses it. It is a new invention in world money but you do not seem to be reflecting this altered reality. The proper comparison seems to be what effect Califormia's bankruptcy would have on the US dollar? In that case since California has a huge economy, it may well be much more serious than the Greek case, but I do not see the end of currency union in the US. All the other states are not going to Repudiate California, throw it out of the US and make it create its own currency.

If any Eurozone nation can get away with such a thing and remain in the Euro then the whole Euro is valueless
In general, we normally reckon that if someone goes bankrupt, or some thing goes bankrupt, thats bad luck for the creditors, but hardly a threat to the currency used for the loans. Governments using the euro are just big things which happen to have debts denominated in euros. This is the game change. Your country going bust does not drag you down with it. Talk about gains in civil liberties!

Bad news for bankers! Makes it much easier for a country to default without its own citizens having to pay the cost. Oh bankers must hate the euro!

This is a staggeringly important change in the game which benefits evry individual living in a country using the euro.
 

Jason

Superior Member
Verified
Gold
Joined
Aug 26, 2004
Posts
15,634
Media
61
Likes
4,903
Points
433
Location
London (Greater London, England)
Verification
View
Sexuality
90% Gay, 10% Straight
Gender
Male
Well the package has been agreed. Or Euro-fudged!

It is between E100bn and E120bn over three years, and why we haven't got a precise figure I don't know. Unless there is tacit awareness that it will go up. The subsidised interest rate alone means that Greece from 2013 will be getting a gift of E6bn per year. However it is very hard to see how Greece can ever repay. Sensibly the full E100-E120bn should be regarded as a gift, but that breaches EU treaties.

Greece has agreed "unthinkable" cuts. It is one thing to agree these cuts, another to implement them. It isn't going to happen. The unions and demonstrators will take on the government over this one. No one thinks cuts of this magnitude can truly happen.

The Euro does not have an intrinsic value. Like all paper currencies it reflects the value of the country it serves, in this case the 16 Eurozone countries. In order to prop up the currency the Eurozone have gone for de facto subsidy (called a loan) in exchange for a promise of cuts they all know won't happen - so they will be back in Greece again very soon. Putting a hold on the Greek problems for a few weeks in effect gives Portugal breathing space (like Greece a small economy). The real issue is now Spain. News is that unemployment in Spain has hit 20%, with youth unemployment (under 25s) around 40%. In human terms this is a lost generation. In economic terms this is unsustainable, and the markets know this. 20% is an iconic rate - 20%, and still rising, and Spain still in recession.

Somewhere on this thread the views of George Soros are reported - basically his view that Greece would be patched up but the real problem is Spain. So far he is right.
 
7

798686

Guest
The measures sound sensible (as far as I would know anyway, lol), but tough to implement.

There's an interesting BBC article asking whether the UK could face the same situation as Greece. The conclusion seems to be that the circumstances are slightly different as our debt is 'only' 68 % of GDP rather than Greece's 115%, and also because of the extra flexibility we have outside the euro, and the fact that our repayments aren't due just yet. They do warn that things might take a turn for the worse if Spain gets dragged down...

Looking at the chart alongside the article, it appears that Italy's debt is pretty huge too...
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Jason

Superior Member
Verified
Gold
Joined
Aug 26, 2004
Posts
15,634
Media
61
Likes
4,903
Points
433
Location
London (Greater London, England)
Verification
View
Sexuality
90% Gay, 10% Straight
Gender
Male
Interesting article. I'm sure it is right to see Spain as the "line in the sand".

Right now:
GREECE - sticking plaster applied. Greece will not default just yet. However the austerity package won't work, strikes/riots may turn nasty, and I don't know how the EU reacts come the autumn when Greece is in a worse pickle and needs more money.
PORTUGAL - suddenly a bit of a side show. While Greece is okay, so is Portual.
SPAIN - this is now the problem as the budget defecit is huge, still in recession, and 20% unemployment. Strong possibility of further downgrading by ratings agencies.
ITALY - the odd one! Divide Italy in two and the north is doing as well as Germany and the south as bad as Greece. Potential for fireworks here.
IRELAND - being put forward as the example of an austerity package that is working. But with 20% of its property unoccupied the economy is in a mess - the jury is out on whether Ireland will make austerity work.
UK - we are living on borrowed time. We're not in the mess of Greece, and most of our debts aren't due for repayment just yet. If we can keep the market confidence so that the City of London keeps the income flowing then there is a way forward that isn't too terrible. If that market confidence goes then we are in trouble. And the speculators say a hung parliament will be the trigger.
 
7

798686

Guest
All interesting and potentially dodgy. The Greek riots look pretty bad in the papers over the last few days...
 

dandelion

Superior Member
Verified
Gold
Joined
Sep 25, 2009
Posts
13,297
Media
21
Likes
2,705
Points
358
Location
UK
Verification
View
Sexuality
100% Gay, 0% Straight
Gender
Male
I noticed the BBC were happily chatting to some famous trader today asking his views on Greece and the euro. Said he reckoned it would be gone in 20 years. On the other hand he said thought it was a brilliant idea and that obviously Greece should continue to use it. Where he parted company was he reckoned Greece should just be left to go bust and sort itself out, because he thought theyd never reform until they do. Essentially, he felt that the bailing out rather than the bankruptcy was what might threaten the euro.
 

Jason

Superior Member
Verified
Gold
Joined
Aug 26, 2004
Posts
15,634
Media
61
Likes
4,903
Points
433
Location
London (Greater London, England)
Verification
View
Sexuality
90% Gay, 10% Straight
Gender
Male
Dandelion, I guess I agree.

What the Eurozone has now come up with is a programme that everyone knows will not work - the austerity required is impossible to implement, it is indeed as Merkel says "unthinkabe" - but the programme is a legal fiction which puts a hold on the immediate problems. The Greek problems will be back soon (autumn?) but will be worse. If they are patched up again the next return will be worse still, until finally the Euro is taken down with the chaos. If Greece was left to go bust there would be a solution - a very messy one for people, but actually it is quite easy to see a sensible way forward subsequently. But the present bailout prevents the very default which for Greece would be cathartic.
 

dandelion

Superior Member
Verified
Gold
Joined
Sep 25, 2009
Posts
13,297
Media
21
Likes
2,705
Points
358
Location
UK
Verification
View
Sexuality
100% Gay, 0% Straight
Gender
Male
i think perhaps in all this, both Greece and Britain, the question is whether there is a need for pain. Both Greece and britain seem to be trotting along on the path of deferred pain. This is very appealing to politicians, who only worry about 5 years ahead anyway. But the way this is going maybe we need to consider the end game. If Greece can keep going through the bad times, then maybe the problem will go away. If Greece can keep going until debt catches up with the rest of the world too, then they will have had a few extra good years and otherwise be none the worse. If they ultimately default, then the thing to do is borrow as much as possible first and enjoy it, because you will never be paying it back.

I have absolutely no idea what greeks think about all this. Maybe they have exactly as much trust for their political parties as we do. If they are really trying to find a solution then what they need is a good coalition government giving a united front saying what is necessary. I hate to think what will happen here when everything turns pear shaped if we have a cameron government with a majority of 1.
 

Jason

Superior Member
Verified
Gold
Joined
Aug 26, 2004
Posts
15,634
Media
61
Likes
4,903
Points
433
Location
London (Greater London, England)
Verification
View
Sexuality
90% Gay, 10% Straight
Gender
Male
Greece is in a nose dive. If the good times came tomorrow Greece would still crash. There is sense in buying time so that a programme can be put in place to minimise the damage from that crash and provide a way to rebuild (and in this respect sense in the EU's bailout). But the hard times for Greece are now inevitable - the question is just how hard they will be. The financial comment has changed a bit in the last couple of days in that the problem is seen a bit less as a Greek problem and a bit more as a Eurozone problem. If the Eurozone are not cutting Greece free (and so far they are not) and the austerity programme won't work (it won't, see this week's strikes) and there is officially no plan for long-term subsidy (there can't be as it is not legal) then it is not Greece that the markets begin to see as weak but the whole Eurozone. There is a steady and continuing downward trend for the Euro. It will weaken the asset base across the Eurozone causing real problems. The whisper of a whisper is now not default on Greek sovereign debt or default on Club Med sovereign debt but default on Euroszone sovereign debt. I don't beleive this, but that there should even be the quietest whisper is concerning. Markets are in effect saying that there is a (tiny) additional risk in all Eurozone bonds, and once you start even thinking about an additional risk it is easy for that risk to grow.

The UK is at a cross-roads. I half heard a comedy sketch last night with the line "The Tories are saying 'vote for us or the country gets it'". Crude but right. If we have Brown back or a Lib-Lab pact the markets will turn in days. I know the response is that this is only a Tory scare; it isn't. It has a degree of probability so high that it is all but inevitable. And I just don't know how anyone gets the message across to people who don't both to read the financial press and don't realise this is the case. The FT came out for the Tories today (they've backed Lab for the last three elections).

We now seem to be heading for a hung parliament which might be a Con minority government. A lot depends on exactly how the figures pan (is it just technically hung or truly hung?) but this is a very risky position. We need Con with a working majority to get us through this bad time. And the key is get us through. The markets believe Con have the right instincts and are less likely to move against a Con govt, so we will have a fighting chance of getting ourselves out tof the defecit, of keeping going through the bad times. If we can keep going then basically life goes on. But if we vote back the guy who crashed the UK (as the markets see Brown) or vote in the economic illiterate who is now revealed as a security risk we will not keep going. And yes that means we join Greece.

Democracy is a terrible system. Wish I could think of a better.
 

dandelion

Superior Member
Verified
Gold
Joined
Sep 25, 2009
Posts
13,297
Media
21
Likes
2,705
Points
358
Location
UK
Verification
View
Sexuality
100% Gay, 0% Straight
Gender
Male
Jason, you just don't get the big picture. Its simple. Bankers want to make money. They get paid on commission. This is no different to the US mortgages affair, where people made loans which were impossible to repay because they would benefit irrespective, and to hell with whether the customers would suffer or the bank would suffer. This is exactly the same. Bankers as a class just want to manipulate the price to make more money. They see an opening by hyping up difficulties with the weakest economies in Europe. Especially if they believe there is no real risk of default, because the EU will pay.

I agree, this suggests Greece ought to have been allowed to go bust. But that would mean a lot of pain for Greeks and a knock on pain for us too. propping them up means the banks win, but maybe we get less pain too. The real issue is to SORT OUT THE BANKS! The euro is half a solution to this, and in due course even Greece may come up with the other half of the solution.

Greece is in a nose dive. If the good times came tomorrow Greece would still crash.
Now think...thats silly.

the hard times for Greece are now inevitable
Actually, no. International trade is mostly a confidence trick. Admittedly, very unlikely now they can escape with no pain, but the reality is that everyones good times are also a confidence trick, and very probably a fraud on our children. Time we fixed this, I think. Its a systemic issue not a national one.

the austerity programme won't work (it won't, see this week's strikes)
This is just headlines. News media are appalling these days at hyping news. Good has to to fantastic and bad has to be disaster. Strikes may be a good thing. Its not the people on the street, but those at home watching who may be thinking, do we really want to allow this? A bit of a riot may just convince people of the need for change.

There is a steady and continuing downward trend for the Euro.
I though you said Greece needed a depreciated curency? ditto, spain, portugal, etc? Obviously the euro balances depending on how its members behave as an aggregate. But you forget that fundamentally bankers WANT to lend. They WANT to trade. So they can get rich and retire to a Greek island. The euro CANNOT be pushed down, because that means some other currency has to go up. Which shining example, exactly, is all the capital going to fly to? Maybe to the pound?

Which brings us to another matter. The pound isnt going to collapse. Its useful to bankers. its an alternative to the euro and the dollar. Its no good saying any of these is going to collapse, because there is no better currency for them to collapse against. Its all just traders trying to engineer short term advantages in their positions. Someone should stop them.

It will weaken the asset base across the Eurozone causing real problems.
Dont understand what you mean.

The whisper of a whisper is now not default on Greek sovereign debt or default on Club Med sovereign debt but default on Euroszone sovereign debt.
Its not possible. It would in effect be a world default. Which wouldnt stop BANKERS engineering it if they could make enough on the trade to retire. Theres no point worrying about it, because if they do destabilise the system that far we will be talking about a new game by new rules. This might be a good thing. I dont know if the euro bank has been working on what they plan to do should the world default?

The UK is at a cross-roads. I half heard a comedy sketch last night with the line "The Tories are saying 'vote for us or the country gets it'". Crude but right.
I think you miss the point. I'd say the comedians are attacking the conservative party for having no policy other than to try to trick or blackmail people into voting for them. I fear this is precisely correct. They have not demonstrated any positive policy reason to vote for them.

If we have Brown back or a Lib-Lab pact the markets will turn in days.
For the better, you mean? The election will be over and the markets will have lost their opportunity to cause trouble.

It has a degree of probability so high that it is all but inevitable.
Then I dont understand why it is only pro-conservatives who say it.

The FT came out for the Tories today (they've backed Lab for the last three elections).
You mean that for the last three elections they though labour would let them make most money, but now they reckon labour might get tough so they want to try the conservatives?

We now seem to be heading for a hung parliament which might be a Con minority government. A lot depends on exactly how the figures pan (is it just technically hung or truly hung?) but this is a very risky position. We need Con with a working majority to get us through this bad time.
Absolutely not. We need a national coalition government which enjoys the support of a majority of the population. The cons will be lucky to get 25%. It might be better for all three parties to agree the economic strategy, which ought to be possible. I would also like to see parliament resume its proper role, which is to say arguing out the merits issue by issue.

My view is that the best approach would be a pay freeze for all government workers. MPs need to lead by example by taking an immediate pay cut. But to swing that they need a united front. The conservatives will get slaughtered if they tried it by themselves. The big fear is that conservatives will be afraid to cut expenditure and refuse to raise taxes. Conservatives just do not do tax rises, which will be vital. They will be afraid to cut anything else because they have promised not to. On the other hand socialists have a free hand to tax, and potentially the high ground as the caring left to help enforce cuts.

And the key is get us through. The markets believe Con have the right instincts and are less likely to move against a Con govt,
Rubbish. Theyve had plenty of time to turn on Brown if they thought he was weak. the plain truth is they think he has been exactly right in his policies.

But if we vote back the guy who crashed the UK (as the markets see Brown)
But they dont. Some people may be foolish enough to think this, but I would presume bankers would have suficient understanding of economic realities to know this is far from the truth.

Democracy is a terrible system. Wish I could think of a better.
I can certainly think of a better one than what we have now. WHich isnt at all democratic. Once again, vote lib dem for democracy.
 

Jason

Superior Member
Verified
Gold
Joined
Aug 26, 2004
Posts
15,634
Media
61
Likes
4,903
Points
433
Location
London (Greater London, England)
Verification
View
Sexuality
90% Gay, 10% Straight
Gender
Male
We're pretty much at the stage of just wait and see. For Greece the cards are prettty much dealt. Either Greek politicians have a plan B or they don't. Either Germany has plans to leave the Euro or it doesn't. Either the ECB has plans for its orderly demise or it doesn't.
 

dandelion

Superior Member
Verified
Gold
Joined
Sep 25, 2009
Posts
13,297
Media
21
Likes
2,705
Points
358
Location
UK
Verification
View
Sexuality
100% Gay, 0% Straight
Gender
Male
a bit of rioting seems to have finaly got some news attention on to greece. One or two interviews with people. Sounds as though the population is heartily sick of being lied to by politicians.

Cameron is immediately going to run smack against this same problem should he win the british election. The only way to avoid a Greek re-run here is if the parties can unite, and the only prospect for this seems to be a lib-lab coalition. Seem to be Vote connservative, vote riots. Caneron will never be able to command public support on about 25% of the population, and the rich ones at that.
 

Jason

Superior Member
Verified
Gold
Joined
Aug 26, 2004
Posts
15,634
Media
61
Likes
4,903
Points
433
Location
London (Greater London, England)
Verification
View
Sexuality
90% Gay, 10% Straight
Gender
Male
Dandelion, it's the other way round.

If Cameron wins then there is a pretty good chance of the markets holding up. Sure we've got problems, but it will be life as usual. On the other hand a truly hung parliament will lead to the markets moving against Britain. If you want to try it out, vote Hung and watch the markets attack the UK. Yes a truly Hung parliament will be horrific for Britain. If we get a Lib-Lab parliament we will have financial misery. We will have catastrophic cuts in health, education, pensions, benefits. In a nutshell we will all get much poorer. If we get a Con majority, even a slim minority, the markets will hold up and the worst problems won't happen.
 

dandelion

Superior Member
Verified
Gold
Joined
Sep 25, 2009
Posts
13,297
Media
21
Likes
2,705
Points
358
Location
UK
Verification
View
Sexuality
100% Gay, 0% Straight
Gender
Male
Dandelion, it's the other way round.

If Cameron wins then there is a pretty good chance of the markets holding up.
Why? Hes just a politician with economic policies much the same as the others. The only difference I can see is that traditionally and in reality the conservatives are the party of the monied class. Youre saying that bankers will give a favourable wind to their mates in the conservative party.

Well, I suppose as far as it goes we should take any advantage we can get. the trouble is, these same MPs believe a salary of £60,000 + the same in expenses is hardly enough to be worth doing the job. Some of those mates in banking no doubt think £600,000 is necessary before theyd do a job. Somehow the tail is wagging the dog. Its not that the conservatives mates are doing them a favour, its that their mates expect something in return for any favour. They won't rock the boat too much just now so long as they're allowed to go on coining it for the next 5 years.

On the other hand a truly hung parliament will lead to the markets moving against Britain.
we clearly dont agree. I will repeat that precedent in different parliaments all round the world says that the way government is structured has absolutely nothing to do withy how well they perform. There are good and bad examples on all sides. Greece, for example. Wouldnt we love a majority government like that?

Labour has done a good job of weathering the financial storm thus far and there is no reason to think any government they are part of would fail now.

If we get a Lib-Lab parliament we will have financial misery. We will have catastrophic cuts in health, education, pensions, benefits. In a nutshell we will all get much poorer.
Whichever party wins will make little difference to whether we escape disaster or have to face it. Why should it? If everything runs smoothly and the current financial problems simply disappear, which is what every party is hoping, it wont make much difference whoever wins. I am concerned what will happen if things really go pear shaped. One faction of the Conservatives will rebel at the idea of raising taxes, which will be disastrous, and the other will baulk at cutting defence, etc. etc. Ultimately they will be forced to cuts in education, health, etc, and with a bare majority (at best) will have to try to persuade the 75% of the population who do not support them to go along with it. If things really do get bad, a lib/lab coalition is the only prospect of getting significant support behind a government which will have to take extreme action. The left is the only side in politics which can get away with such cuts.

The real issue in this election is proportional representation. the conservatives know that as a party they would not survive its introduction, because the right simply does not command sufficiently large support from the electorate as a whole. Its no accident that lib and lab are proposed as a coalition, because between them their generally left/centre policies command something like 50-60% support. This is a rearguard action by conservatives purely in self-interest, while the country has moved further and further away from their natural position over the last 50 years. Its quite telling that in europe the conservatives have left the centre right block and joined the extreme right minority.
 

Jason

Superior Member
Verified
Gold
Joined
Aug 26, 2004
Posts
15,634
Media
61
Likes
4,903
Points
433
Location
London (Greater London, England)
Verification
View
Sexuality
90% Gay, 10% Straight
Gender
Male
The real issue about the next election starts 1am Friday morning. It continues over days, weeks and perhaps up to six months as the markets decide on the fate of Britain.

If we have Hung as the party in charge then the speculators have already stated they will regard this as unstable, and increase the risk premium on British sovereign debt. There is little doubt that we will get a ratings agency downgrade.

If we have Conservative as the party in charge - please with a proper majority, but even possibly as a minority government - the speculators will back off and with a bit of luck it is business as usual.

Greece is facing cuts which beggar belief. They are as Merkel has said "unthinkable". If we have these problems in Hung Britain we will have big cuts in key services: hospitals, education, pensions, benefits. These cuts won't be the doing of Lib-Lab; they will be the doing of the markets. A vote for Hung is a vote for poverty.