what's good for the goose is good for the gander??

[FRE]

I understand that it's to keep a woman also from straying (if sex isn't pleasurable, the thought is that she's less likely to stray). Obviously, these men have no idea of the numerous women who will have sex with their partners for the intimacy and closeness.

If only that Twilight Zone episode could be done in a similar manner (the one where the racist was hunted down by racists). If these men experienced ....

It's a power and control issue - isn't it? Control their women? Purdah started out for an anthropological reason, and it's now mainly for control/power reasons is what I see.

One would think that they'd find a way to control men, like a chastity belt for men.

 

[FRE]

Female sexual mutilation is a barbaric practice meant to prevent women from experiencing sexual pleasure; any culture that finds such a goal to be acceptable, let alone laudable, needs to be condemned by civilization.

And yet there are people who mistakenly believe that all cultures are equal and that whatever their cultures require should be respected. Probably those people are incapable of thinking.

 

[B_spiker067]

"A Walk to Beautiful" is a Nova production about Ethiopian women with special medical needs because of child birth complications. In this case it has to do with being married off too young and being of stunted growth because of their workload and nutritional deficiencies.

I felt moved by this: NOVA | A Walk to Beautiful | Watch the Program | PBS

Check out the video that is broken out into 6 chapters.

[edit: yeah, its about corrective surgery for fistulas]

 

[B_spiker067]

This is another great story about women. This one is about women nurses in Mozambique who expertly train for and perform cesareans (with high success rates).

Birth of a Surgeon ~ Video: Full Episode | Wide Angle

Kinda speaks to health care in this country being over priced.

I love public television and mostly tolerate public radio :0)

 

[D_Fiona_Farvel]

And yet there are people who mistakenly believe that all cultures are equal and that whatever their cultures require should be respected. Probably those people are incapable of thinking.

Disagree. Speaking for myself, I view other cultures as simply that, and respect their internal processes, whatever they may be and to whatever end they may reach, which may not parallel my own.

I found it extremely difficult to read the graphic description of the procedure. It would be tempting to lower those who performed it very slowly into a vat of acid. I do not understand how they could do such a thing with the child screaming in excruciating pain. The women doing the mutilation had to be aware of the pain because it had been done to them also. That extreme pain alone can sometimes cause death. I would expect it to do psychological damage also. How could a child ever again trust people after going through that?

I've known about the barbaric procedure for at least 30 years and it still horrifies me. There are a few men in the countries where it is done who have vowed not to marry a mutilated woman. If there were more of them, the mutilations would end. A few fathers, after witnessing the pain experienced when one child was mutilated, have refused to permit subsequent children from being mutilated.

That mutilation sometimes is done secretly among immigrants. Ending it is difficult.

For many communities that practice FGM, there tends to be a lot of negative myths surrounding the clitoris - it will grow to the size of a tail, look like a penis, make you smell/dirty or unmarriageable - which supports a mindset of the ritual being beneficial, even for victims.

Beyond the above influences, tradition is a difficult habit to break, in any culture. In the Saadawi text, Hidden Face of Eve and the companion documentary to Secret of Joy, many women expressed that their female family members had an attitude of “I went through it, you should, too,” and that's how they were circumcised in this era of awareness of the dangers.

Education and achieving upward mobility tends to lower the circumcision rate, however, these are no guarantees non-parental family members would not step in. For women like Ayann Hirsi Ali, being born into a "progressive", intellectual family that did not want their daughters circumcised meant, when she was of age and her parents left Somalia for a period, the grandmother had the girls secretly circumcised. From the grandmother's point of view, it was necessary. Because it is mostly an event initiated and undertaken by women, the power is in women changing that point of view. Until they do, it really doesn't matter what men or legislators desire - FGM has its own industry.

Speaking of which, part of the reason migrants continue the practice is because the industry exists in Europe or the Americas. The practitioner provides follow up/maintenance care for the more invasive forms of circumcision; pharaonic circumcision, in particular, requires a woman to be prepared for marriage, repaired after intercourse (tears), closed when her husband goes away/divorced/widowed, re-opened for childbirth, and so forth. If there was no need for “maintenance”, it is likely some communities would have no means for circumcision outside of their homeland.

 

[B_crackoff]

I'm surprised that no one sees the irony that in the West, & on this forum, there's a staggering amount of self mutilation, mainly culturally led.

Nose jobs, boob jobs, tattoos, liposuction, facelifts, ass implants, pec implants, cheek implants, collagen filler, botox, gender reassignment, hair transplants, dermabrasion, clit piercings, cock piercings, bro lifts etc.

I'm sure these African cultures would be appalled by a lot of these, none of which have any meaning unlike theirs.

Don't get me wrong, I hate all mutilation, & am still staggered that most Americans still have non religious circumcision, but as far as I'm aware, it's the women that continue this themselves, & bizarrely seem quite content with it.

I saw a documentary where this Scottish woman was transplanted into a small African village, & was horrified that the teenage girl she was staying with was soon to have a circumcision.

However, the girl was upbeat about it, & contrasted her life of non materiality, but a large unified social circle & happy family, with the Scot's clear unhappiness & loneliness with her life.

Of course it's all cultural inuring, but then our opinions & beliefs have been indoctrinated into us since birth too, & what makes them right? Nothing.

I find this maternalistic/paternalistic approach to other cultures is often racist, indulging the view that Africans are a backward race with a childlike adherence to traditions.

It's also ironic that we encourage diversity rather than assimilation in the West, & fear of institutional racism accusations prevents the eradication of such practices here.

 

[petite]

Crackoff, you know how much I like you and I enjoy your presence on LPSG very much, but I have to say that I don't agree with your last post at all.

You just compared the forced removal of a child's clitoris against adults who choose to alter the appearance of their noses, which is an absurd comparison.

Then you argued that the condemnation of this barbaric and cruel practice is racist? It doesn't matter which culture practices it or what their reasons are, cutting off a little girl's clitoris with a razor is cruel and barbaric and needs to end.

 

[43698]

This is messed up. If god did not want you to have a clitoris he would not have given it to you. Humans are blessed that we have been given the gift of sex as something to enjoy with out partner, and as something to give us a physical experience that expresses and compliments the mental experience of being in love with someone. To think that it is ok to take that right away from someone based on the irresponsible and imoral actions of others is appauling.

 

[SilverTrain]

I believe "female circumcision" should be called "female castration." It's only comparable to male circumcision if male circumcision involved cutting off the head of the penis.

I'm all for a "ceremonial pinprick" if it stops families from ruining their daughter's lives.

Well (and succinctly) put.

 

[HazelGod]

If god did not want you to have a clitoris he would not have given it to you.

:lmao:

God...

:chairfall:


For the record, I want all women to have clitorises.

 

[B_crackoff]

Crackoff, you know how much I like you and I enjoy your presence on LPSG very much, but I have to say that I don't agree with your last post at all.

You just compared the forced removal of a child's clitoris against adults who choose to alter the appearance of their noses, which is an absurd comparison.

Then you argued that the condemnation of this barbaric and cruel practice is racist? It doesn't matter which culture practices it or what their reasons are, cutting off a little girl's clitoris with a razor is cruel and barbaric and needs to end.

Hi Petite!

I hold my hands up, I was being a little antagonistic & provocative:smile: in order to make a fairly sound esoteric point.

I did say I found all mutilation cruel, but in many cases, they actually choose to do this themselves at about 12/13 as a ritual into womanhood, still enjoy sex, & have orgasms.

In the West we positively reinforce goodwill to people who want to do far worse & remove their own genitalia completely.

The issue of FC promotes an empathetic response in the West because we haven't been conditioned to this practise, but knowing quite a few Africans, they see any uproar over their traditions as a Western racist colonial attack on their history & culture.

Let's be honest. We automatically believe that any woman who accepts, or wants FC must be brainwashed, or have some mental deficiency.

I can tolerate what people do in their own culture & own country, but I don't have to accept it.

However it is to be stopped, there is an intrinsic danger of forcing the practise deeper underground, with the possibilty that female infants may simply be hidden away.

For those carrying out, or allowing FC in the West, I don't know why they aren't simply deported, as the fear of that should reduce it. Any attempt to do regular genital examinations on suspect groups would automatically be considered racist, so then you'd have to expand that to all races, which is a huge waste of resources for a rare occurrence.

Tricky isn't it.

To get rid of a practise without extremely invasive methods, you'd need to remove the reason for it, or make it redundant.

I don't like burkas either!

 

[Ethyl]

Female genital mutilation is described at length in Alice Walker's book Possessing the Secret of Joy. It's one of the most important books to read about men, women. and cultural norms.

 

[Tattooed Goddess]

:lmao:

God...

:chairfall:


For the record, I want all women to have clitorises.

You know, if there is a Dog, i am going to ask him if he wanted us to orgasm during sex, why the fux didn't he put that sucker inside the vagina.

 

[Guy-jin]

Africans have their own culture (well, they have a ton of different cultures, but you know what I mean), and what they do in their culture is, in my opinion, their business.

It's funny, when people come to America from, say, Somalia, they are shocked by our public displays of affection. Even holding hands is very taboo to them. If you went to their country and kissed your loved one in the street, it would be an affront to society.

Similarly, a lot of people from Asia and the Middle East are stunned to see homeless people walking the streets of America. Where are their families? Why doesn't the government give them jobs and shelter if they don't have families? They feel we're committing a crime against humanity by letting these people walk the streets, filthy and sick and hungry.

All of that said, it is for these reasons I do not judge other cultures by my own cultural values.

However, there's rather a catch-22 here in America where we are welcoming to all cultures and immigrants. Yet we do have our own culture, and in it, mutilation is generally looked down upon--generally, it's against the law (male circumcision is considered a medical procedure still, and I'm not touching that discussion with a 12-foot pole and I hope nobody else will because this forum has enough places to talk about that not in this thread).

If the pin-prick is mostly ceremonial and not mutilation, then I think that's adhering to American cultural standards while being compatible with the home culture. I say that's a good thing, as opposed to sending those girls back to their parents' country to get mutilated and then shipped back to America, which would both physically damage or kill the girl and continue to perpetuate a schism between the cultures.

 

[FRE]

Hi Petite!

I hold my hands up, I was being a little antagonistic & provocative:smile: in order to make a fairly sound esoteric point.

I did say I found all mutilation cruel, but in many cases, they actually choose to do this themselves at about 12/13 as a ritual into womanhood, still enjoy sex, & have orgasms.

Although you did make some valid points, there are serious things which you have not adequately considered.

There are various degrees of mutilation and some involve far more than removal of the clitoris, although that is bad enough. The procedure is performed at various ages. Sometimes it is performed when the girl is quite young, perhaps even younger than two years old, and at that age is incapable of granting consent. At least at that age the excruciating pain is less likely to be remembered and because the victim is weaker, she can be more easily restrained thereby at least slightly reducing the damage.

Even if the procedure is performed at or just before puberty, the girl is not necessarily granting valid consent. In those cultures, marriage is not an option. An unmarried woman would probably be unable to support herself and she would probably be unable to find a man to marry her if she were not mutilated. Even if she did refuse to be mutilated, it is likely that she would be physically forced to submit to it.

At one time, in China, girls had their feet bound; that practice continued for centuries and left women badly crippled. One of the things done to end the practice was to get large numbers of men to agree not to marry a woman with bound feet. When bound feet made it more difficult for a young woman to find a husband, there was an incentive to end the practice. In Africa, where FGM is practiced, getting large numbers of men (there are already a few) to agree never to marry a mutilated woman, there would be an incentive to end the practice. It would also help to create economic opportunities for women to end their dependence on men.

So far as I know, Muslims are not the only ones practicing FGM, but it seems to be most prevalent among Muslims. Many of those practicing FGM mistakenly believe that it is a requirement of Islam whereas most Muslims, on a global basis, oppose the practice. Many Muslims, in third-world countries, have never read the Koran and therefore can easily be mislead regarding the requirements of Islam.

The women performing the surgery have also been mutilated but they figure that it is to the girl's benefit. I suppose that it is similar to what professional beggars did to their children in the middle ages; they crippled their children so that they could beg more effectively.

 

[Tattooed Goddess]

The thing that amazes me is that if the women had this done to them well before they ever had a chance to experience orgasm....just imagine if they did have a clitoral orgasm just how much they would love it and wouldn't want to rob that opportunity from their daughters.

 

[D_Tina_Ciao]

I think it's *HORRIBLE* to rob any woman or girl (no matter what one believes, the kind of mutilation which would excise the entire clitoris because of beliefs is NOT an acceptable excuse!) of the chance to have clitoral orgasms! Being celibate with no man for over 5 years, I'd have gone stark raving mad if I couldn't at least have orgasms!

 

[big_tits4big_dicks]

Weather or not it compares in severity, genital mutilation is genital mutilation. Your whole baby is a beautiful piece of art. The magic of our bodies is revealed to every mother that holds her baby for the first time. I have seen it so many times. I don't have children, and I never will, but I can't imagine altering their life in such a dramatic fashion without consent. It is for fashion, as proper cleaning is all that is needed. This is my belief.

 

[FRE]

Weather or not it compares in severity, genital mutilation is genital mutilation. Your whole baby is a beautiful piece of art. The magic of our bodies is revealed to every mother that holds her baby for the first time. I have seen it so many times. I don't have children, and I never will, but I can't imagine altering their life in such a dramatic fashion without consent. It is for fashion, as proper cleaning is all that is needed. This is my belief.

Some forms of the surgery make proper cleaning impossible. The girl is actually sewn shut with something like a match stick inserted to leave a hole through which urine, and later menses, can exit. Thus, there is no way to do any cleaning whatsoever. Also, with a tiny hole, it can take 10 minutes to empty the bladder. It is not only the stitches that keep her closed; the tissues are actually scraped before the closing so that they grow together. Infection can occur at any time, and without more surgery, treatment is impossible. When the girl is married, she is cut open with a knife to make coitus possible. Sometimes the husband cuts her open on the wedding night; other times the procedure is performed by someone with more experience. Because of nerve and tissue damage, coitus can be forever painful. Some women have been cut open and sewn closed multiple times in cases where the husband must be away from home for extended periods. If she has been sewn closed while pregnant, obviously she must be cut open again to give birth. These procedures are often performed by very crude and unsterile methods and each time there is considerable risk of infection. Sometimes the infections are fatal.

The extensive form of mutilation can greatly complicate childbirth because scar tissue does not stretch like normal tissue. Serious tearing can occur and sometimes emergency surgery must be performed to permit for the infant to be born.

If this all sounds nauseatingly gory and crude, it's because it is. So far as I am concerned, it is barbaric and uncivilized.