what's harder

[B_Think_Kink]

I'd have to say a homosexual, they are a minority that gets some of the most hard discrimination.

 

[clear]

Hey jason_els,

I really liked your comments to ballsaplenty2156 and I think you alluded to some of the same sentiments I had in my previous post concerning this whole issue. It all really just boils down to some people’s in-ability to empathize with this issue and struggle. Not to single him out in any negative way or anything, but ballsaplenty2156 response is what is typically being trumpeted and espoused by many young white males in my generation or younger. Since most of them have no family or close friends that had to endure any of the things being spoken about here, it is easy to dismiss the concerns and frustrations of “people” like me as baseless outdated nagging. And you don’t want to know how many times the issue of “this immigrant group was able to succeed, why can’t yours?” has been tossed about as if it proves anything. THEY WERE NEVER ENSLAVED BY THE DOMINANT RACE IN THIS COUNTRY FOR HUNDREDS OF YEARS! It’s like they at times don’t understand that the “color” of “dark” or “black peoples” skin doesn’t instantly make them stand out in a crowd. You can’t hide that. An Irish immigrant still looks (and for all intents and purposes is) white. Most Latins (i.e. French, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, etc.) can also pass as “white” in this society. Even in the case of many Asians, we can see this happening too. But the American black has had to fight against buried prejudices and societal bias in favor of “fairer skinned” individuals in this country for hundreds of years. Not to mention that most every first world nation was able to abolish slavery without a bloody civil war or extreme loss of life; unlike this one.

The United States of America must understand that when millions of people have been cheated for centuries, restitution is a costly process. Inferior education, poor housing, unemployment, inadequate health care; are all bitter components of the oppression that has been the “black American” heritage. Each will require billions of dollars to correct. As Dr. King also said, “Justice so long deferred has accumulated interest and its cost for this society will be substantial in financial as well as human terms. This fact has not been fully grasped, because most of the gains of the past … were obtained at bargain rates. The desegregation of public facilities cost nothing; neither did the election and appointment of a few black public officials.” Anyway, there's sooo… much I could get into/talk about, but I have to go get something to eat, lol. Anywho…

For those who care to take a much broader view of what I am discussing here, there are a number of powerful studies mentioned in an article I read on Scientific American a few weeks ago. It is entitled “Buried Prejudice: The Bigot in Your Brain” and can be found here:

Buried Prejudice: The Bigot in Your Brain: Scientific American

I encourage all to take a look at it and let me know what you think.

Respectfully,
My Two Cent’s

T.D.

Ciao-

 

[TinyPrincess]

In Europe, I believe those who have it hardest are the French, black, lesbian, jewish short women forced to live in Germany and Austria.

Then again, how many short black Jewish women of French heritage live in Germany or (/and?) Austria and are lesbian??? And how many of those are "forced" to live there???

 

[ballsaplenty2156]

Hey jason_els,

I really liked your comments to ballsaplenty2156 and I think you alluded to some of the same sentiments I had in my previous post concerning this whole issue. It all really just boils down to some people’s in-ability to empathize with this issue and struggle. Not to single him out in any negative way or anything, but ballsaplenty2156 response is what is typically being trumpeted and espoused by many young white males in my generation or younger. Since most of them have no family or close friends that had to endure any of the things being spoken about here, it is easy to dismiss the concerns and frustrations of “people” like me as baseless outdated nagging. And you don’t want to know how many times the issue of “this immigrant group was able to succeed, why can’t yours?” has been tossed about as if it proves anything. THEY WERE NEVER ENSLAVED BY THE DOMINANT RACE IN THIS COUNTRY FOR HUNDREDS OF YEARS! It’s like they at times don’t understand that the “color” of “dark” or “black peoples” skin doesn’t instantly make them stand out in a crowd. You can’t hide that. An Irish immigrant still looks (and for all intents and purposes is) white. Most Latins (i.e. French, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, etc.) can also pass as “white” in this society. Even in the case of many Asians, we can see this happening too. But the American black has had to fight against buried prejudices and societal bias in favor of “fairer skinned” individuals in this country for hundreds of years. Not to mention that most every first world nation was able to abolish slavery without a bloody civil war or extreme loss of life; unlike this one.

The United States of America must understand that when millions of people have been cheated for centuries, restitution is a costly process. Inferior education, poor housing, unemployment, inadequate health care; are all bitter components of the oppression that has been the “black American” heritage. Each will require billions of dollars to correct. As Dr. King also said, “Justice so long deferred has accumulated interest and its cost for this society will be substantial in financial as well as human terms. This fact has not been fully grasped, because most of the gains of the past … were obtained at bargain rates. The desegregation of public facilities cost nothing; neither did the election and appointment of a few black public officials.” Anyway, there's sooo… much I could get into/talk about, but I have to go get something to eat, lol. Anywho…

For those who care to take a much broader view of what I am discussing here, there are a number of powerful studies mentioned in an article I read on Scientific American a few weeks ago. It is entitled “Buried Prejudice: The Bigot in Your Brain” and can be found here:

Buried Prejudice: The Bigot in Your Brain: Scientific American

I encourage all to take a look at it and let me know what you think.

Respectfully,
My Two Cent’s

T.D.

Ciao-

I read your posting with a mix of amusement and sadness. Personally, I think you completely misread jason_els' posting, but you basically proved my own point with your predictable rant of "black slavery in America" is the worst slavery ever!!
Slavery is slavery no matter where or whenever it is practiced. You try to rationalize all the problems within the black community with that one word.
Start addressing the problems in your own communities and stop comparing yourselves to every other racial, ethnic community in this country and strive to be the best you can be.
Forget about reparations, that isn't ever going to happen. My ancestors never owned slaves, and I'll be damned if any of my tax dollars are going to pay for reparations to people who for the most part have systematically refused to pick themselves up and get on with building a better life for themselves.
Blacks in this country have complained about everyone coming here and getting ahead of them in society, yet there is no responsibility taken to push ahead and climb the ladder of success based on their own merit.
Yes, there are ignorant people, who will judge a man by the color of his skin and not the content of his character, but they are becoming far fewer and further between. Unfortunately, this does not only apply to ignorant people who happen to be white. It straddles both sides of the fence.
Just stop the same old, tired rhetoric of black slavery being the cause/answer to all the problems in the black community.
Peace to you.

 

[ballsaplenty2156]

The ONLY people, I feel entitled to reparations in this country, would be the Native Americans. The guilt of what was done to those people by most Americans needs to be addressed and reparations should be made by this government as soon as possible.
The living conditions on most reservations, even today,are appalling and horrific; and a clear shame on the very fabric of this country's soul.

 

[mista geechee]

The ONLY people, I feel entitled to reparations in this country, would be the Native Americans. The guilt of what was done to those people by most Americans needs to be addressed and reparations should be made by this government as soon as possible.
The living conditions on most reservations, even today,are appalling and horrific; and a clear shame on the very fabric of this country's soul.

as much as i hate to say it i actually agree with that.

 

[Biggin']

older people have it pretty good, they are the wealthiest group in america, and we are currently paying for their social security.

Clinton got america into a surplus because the house and senate made him, as well as sign welfare reform. Too bad everyone is out there spending our fucking money. I dont see why i cant keep my social security taxes and do with it what i want.

I HATE when politicians are out there saying "I will do this for you, or I can do that for you" WHEN ITS ALL BULLSHIT. YOU SHOULDNT EXPECT ANYTHING FROM GOVT, except an emergency safety net (not that one is called for in the consitution) I prefer the political party that engourages self-reliance, not the reliance of others.

and this mortgage crisis shit? I think plenty of peoplke can afford the mortgages...what they cant afford, are the UNEXPECTED TAXES that they get hit with. I know, ive owned a house for 10 years, and my property taxes (anbd school taxes - although i dont have a child in school) have doubled in the last 5 years. State and local govts are out of control.

 

[2322]

Some implicit biases appear to be rooted in strong emotions. In a 2004 study Ohio State psychologist Wil A. Cunningham and his colleagues measured white people’s brain activity as they viewed a series of white and black faces. The team found that black faces—as compared with white faces—that they flashed for only 30 milliseconds (too quickly for participants to notice them) triggered greater activity in the amygdala, a brain area associated with vigilance and sometimes fear. The effect was most pronounced among people who demonstrated strong implicit racial bias. Provocatively, the same study revealed that when faces were shown for half a second—enough time for participants to consciously process them—black faces instead elicited heightened activity in prefrontal brain areas associated with detecting internal conflicts and controlling responses, hinting that individuals were consciously trying to suppress their implicit associations. Why might black faces, in particular, provoke vigilance? Northwestern University psychologist Jennifer A. Richeson speculates that American cultural stereotypes linking young black men with crime, violence and danger are so robust that our brains may automatically give preferential attention to blacks as a category, just as they do for threatening animals such as snakes. In a recent unpublished study Richeson and her colleagues found that white college students’ visual attention was drawn more quickly to photographs of black versus white men, even though the images were flashed so quickly that participants did not consciously notice them. This heightened vigilance did not appear, however, when the men in the pictures were looking away from the camera. (Averted eye gaze, a signal of submission in humans and other animals, extinguishes explicit perceptions of threat.)

I'd love to see this study performed in other countries where there is no history of racism, and also in other countries where the great majority of people are of a race other than white.

Unconscious racial bias may also infect critical medical decisions. In a 2007 study Banaji and her Harvard colleagues presented 287 internal medicine and emergency care physicians with a photograph and brief clinical vignette describing a middle-aged patient—in some cases black and in others white—who came to the hospital complaining of chest pain. Most physicians did not acknowledge racial bias, but on average they showed (on an implicit bias test) a moderate to large implicit antiblack bias. And the greater a physician’s racial bias, the less likely he or she was to give a black patient clot-busting thrombolytic drugs.

That's really shocking and frightening.


However...

Despite such data, some psychologists still question the concept of implicit bias. In a 2004 article in the journal Psychological Inquiry, psychologists Hal R. Arkes of Ohio State and Philip E. Tetlock of the University of California, Berkeley, suggest that implicit associations between, for example, black people and negative words may not necessarily reflect implicit hostility toward blacks. They could as easily reflect other negative feelings, such as shame about black people’s historical treatment at the hands of whites. They also argue that any unfavorable associations about black people we do hold may simply echo shared knowledge of stereotypes in the culture. In that sense, Arkes and Tetlock maintain, implicit measures do not signify anything meaningful about people’s internal state, nor do they deserve to be labeled “prejudiced”—a term they feel should be reserved for attitudes a person deliberately endorses.

The study also notes that these automatic associations went away when pictures of famous people such as Michael Jordan and Denzel Washington were displayed, or the non-famous people were shown against the background of a church.


This leads to my wonder about how the popularity of gangsta rap colors our perceptions. The images and lyrics of gangsta rap are overtly threatening to society as a whole. The news stories about rappers being arrested or murdered in gang-connected crimes reinforces the perception that these performers are actually living what they're performing on stage and screen. I think this alarms people across the board but, if someone doesn't live in and around blacks, they might think that all blacks either engage in or tacitly support gangs and, therefore, equate all blacks with gang crime. This may be the first reaction, but it's not necessarily the definitive one. We look at other factors, primarily clothing and context, to draw our conclusions and this may all happen subconsciously. Is the person male or female? We perceive females to be less threatening. Is the person wearing gang colors and jewelry or is the person wearing work/professional clothing? We perceive people who are well-dressed to be less threatening. How does that person carry themselves? Are they walking aggressively or casually? Smiling or scowling? We find people walking casually, smiling, and having good posture as less threatening. Environment also matters. Are you meeting this person on a country club tennis court or a high-crime slum?



Right underneath that article is a similar one investigating how Harvard students perceive rednecks. The results were similar even though Harvard has a very high percentage of racial minorities. The study showed that we show automatic subconscious biases not just on race but in everything else we can detect. It may be no surprise, but we're most comfortable around people who are like ourselves in background, education, economic status, and culture.


This is why I'd like this study done in other cultures. Are we reacting at such a primal level due to deeply ingrained cultural biases or do we react like this any time we see someone who appears different from ourselves? It's a question I'd love to have answered.

 

[clear]

Dear ballsaplenty2156,

I apologize if anything I said offended you in anyway. I was afraid you would take my post a little more personal then I had intended, but I honestly was not trying to single you out in that way. And for this I am sorry. My intentions still remain the same as what was implied in both my post thus far, and that is to:

1.Give my opinion about what groups of people the original posters asked seemed to be having the hardest time in these United States.

2.To try and give both a personal and historical perspective as to why, in 2008, a group of people still feel as if nothing much (or very little) has changed for the better, concerning the most “public disenfranchised” group in this country.

3.To learn how other individuals experienced these issues- from their perspective –and ultimately direct conversation to ways it is or could be better and ultimately resolved.

Now, to address some of your specific comments to me, I did indeed understand what jason_els wrote (especially his sarcasm). All I remember typing to/about him, was that I liked his answer or response to you and that he alluded to some things I was talking about in my original post. But because he alluded to similar topics of interest as I did, does not mean in any way that we agree with each other or are saying the same thing. I simply used his last reply as a spring board to get into my proceeding post, at the time. Nothing more. Also, concerning your comment about “…stop comparing yourselves to every other racial, ethnic community in this country and strive to be the best you can be.” uhmmm… I don’t think it was me who brought that issue up in the first place. Actually, I think it was you on page 2 of this thread which brought in the comparisons in your post. I was only rebutting against why that does not apply to the group in question (i.e. African Americans) because of the unique dynamics of their role historically and contemporarily, in this society. Which brings me to your slavery in other countries comment.

I don’t ever recall me saying that we had it harder than any other enslaved group or people globally. Actually, again, it was you who brought up such assertions (see your posting on page two of this thread again about how the British treated the Irish harsher then slaves here). I tried my best to make my comments as relevant to “the group” in question- in this country. My only comment- that may have been miss construed to imply anything like what you suggest -would have to be when I said “…most every first world nation was able to abolish slavery without a bloody civil war or extreme loss of life; unlike this one.” But I digress if that is not correct.

Concerning the “reparations” comment you made- I don’t think I have to say too much about that. All I ask is that you re-read what I typed. The fact is this country has been paying for its past for many, many years now. My comment only addressed that (and here is the key word) “process” will continue to be a costly one- i.e. it is still not over -and is not a purely financial one (this also means having to put up with “complaining blacks” in this country). Further, concerning your comment about the racial ignorance, in this country, being on both sides of the fence, I completely agree- as was made evident in my link to that Scientific American article entitled “Buried Prejudice: The Bigot in Your Brain” (which I recommend everyone take a look at).

Lastly, I just wanted to let you know that many of the positive suggestions you did share with us, are indeed happening all over the country, and have been for some time. As you alluded to, the racial issues in this country are not a black exclusive by any stretch of the imagination. But it is something shared by all and must be overcome by all; in like fashion. As I said at the end of my first post in this thread,

… I do believe this country of ours has made great strides to address some of the great wrongs of its past. But we must not forget that the last major vestiges of slaveries legacy- in this country (i.e. institutional racism/legally mandated segregation) -were only really challenged and broken less than fifty years ago... FIFTY! This means at least “two generations” of people- still very much alive today –experienced this all “first hand”…

Those currently living generations (like my Grand and Great Grand Parents, Mom, Aunts and Uncles and some older cousins) in which I was talking about, are the ones you are addressing when you say “…Stop crying about things that you haven't experienced for over 150 years”. It was never about slavery itself I emphasized most, but its legacy.

Just my two cents.

Regards,

Ted D.

Ciao-

 

[Primal_Savage]

The ONLY people, I feel entitled to reparations in this country, would be the Native Americans. The guilt of what was done to those people by most Americans needs to be addressed and reparations should be made by this government as soon as possible.
The living conditions on most reservations, even today,are appalling and horrific; and a clear shame on the very fabric of this country's soul.

Tho, 1/8 Native American, I've never experienced the slings and arrows that befell my grandmother nor lived on a reservation. Personally, what's been hardest for me is being a closeted bi-sexual living daily with the fear that I'll be outed.

 

[clear]

P.S.

I also agree that- above all others -the Native Americans in this county do deserve much more then what they got, from this nation, in order to restore some form of their ancient glory (which they had) before the founding of these United States. It is indeed very appalling that many tribes and there people are still suffering in abject poverty because of what our nation did to them, and continues to allow to happen to them, unabated.

Regards,

T.D.

Ciao-

 

[clear]

...


This is why I'd like this study done in other cultures. Are we reacting at such a primal level due to deeply ingrained cultural biases or do we react like this any time we see someone who appears different from ourselves? It's a question I'd love to have answered.

I completely agree with you on this. It would serve us all well to see how these biases affect the greater spectrum of the global society, and not just our own. I think the various studies only show that we as individuals have to be more mindful of what motivates or influences our decision making abilities, more so then we do already. Because, as you pointed out from the article, sometimes peoples very lives are put in jeopardy because of them.

Regards,

T.D.

Ciao-

 

[ballsaplenty2156]

Clear,
I apologize for my coming off defensive in my answering post to yours. It is evident to me and everyone who has had the opportunity to read any of your postings, on any of the threads, that you are an educated and well-thought out man.
It is a sincere pleasure to share thoughts and rebuttals with you. I admit I was a little hot on this subject, as most people in here tend to play the race card so cavalierly and frequently, without the information to back it up.
You, sir, are a true gentleman, and I once again, apologize for getting a bit peevish in my response to you. You have every right to disagree with my opinions, as I do with yours. However, I don't think we are that far apart in hoping to make this country all it should or could be.
Now, can I have a hug??
Peace to you and yours.
Tim

 

[invisibleman]

"older people have it pretty good, they are the wealthiest group in america, and we are currently paying for their social security."

Maybe the older people in YOUR locale have it pretty good. But I happen to know that many older people in my neighborhood aren't doing so well.


"Clinton got america into a surplus because the house and senate made him, as well as sign welfare reform. Too bad everyone is out there spending our fucking money. I dont see why i cant keep my social security taxes and do with it what i want."

I wonder why the House and the Senate can't make a President pull our troops out of a war WE shouldn't have been involved in in the first place? And it was the Bush Administration's faulty INTELLIGENCE that was in question. Why isn't he paying for this war? He is benefitting from it.

"I HATE when politicians are out there saying "I will do this for you, or I can do that for you" WHEN ITS ALL BULLSHIT. YOU SHOULDNT EXPECT ANYTHING FROM GOVT, except an emergency safety net (not that one is called for in the consitution) I prefer the political party that engourages self-reliance, not the reliance of others."
A political party that is self-reliant? Neither party is self-reliant. If this were the case, we wouldn't HAVE lobbies. We wouldn't have campaign funding. We wouldn't have our taxes paying for THIER salaries.

The US Government really isn't run like a business. It is its own entity.

"and this mortgage crisis shit? I think plenty of peoplke can afford the mortgages...what they cant afford, are the UNEXPECTED TAXES that they get hit with. I know, ive owned a house for 10 years, and my property taxes (anbd school taxes - although i dont have a child in school) have doubled in the last 5 years. State and local govts are out of control."

Yeah, more governmental self-reliance, eh? :smile:

 

[DC_DEEP]

"older people have it pretty good, they are the wealthiest group in america, and we are currently paying for their social security."

Maybe the older people in YOUR locale have it pretty good. But I happen to know that many older people in my neighborhood aren't doing so well.

Most "older" people I know are not in that "wealthiest group" category... but the ones that are didn't just suddenly have a butt-load of money when they turned 50 - they worked hard all their lives, and saved, and planned for the future. What a concept!

 

[naughty]

Most "older" people I know are not in that "wealthiest group" category... but the ones that are didn't just suddenly have a butt-load of money when they turned 50 - they worked hard all their lives, and saved, and planned for the future. What a concept!

Thank you. This considering that they probably have the highest health care bills. I find it horrifying that their thrift comes for naught by many of them being taxed again on the money that they sacrificed to accumulate during their youth.

 

[mista geechee]

Most "older" people I know are not in that "wealthiest group" category... but the ones that are didn't just suddenly have a butt-load of money when they turned 50 - they worked hard all their lives, and saved, and planned for the future. What a concept!

sadly i agree. most old (60+ yrs) people i know arent anywhere near rich or even well off.

but about the work thing, people seem to think that society owes them something. everyone wants an instant fixer. hell my grandmother's side was given away by her mother. and my grandparents on my father's side had to sell most of their land to put my old man through college. tey just happened to be a few of the first in a lond line of people who sold the land to the contractors who have put dozens of resorts on our barrier islands.

seems that hard work and sacrifice is archaic nowadays.seems as though everyone whines about being pc and being offended by being mistaken for a catholic when you're a baptist or some petty shit. i guess what i'm trying to say is that our society is turniong into a bunch of pussies.

 

[clear]

Clear,
I apologize for my coming off defensive in my answering post to yours. It is evident to me and everyone who has had the opportunity to read any of your postings, on any of the threads, that you are an educated and well-thought out man.
It is a sincere pleasure to share thoughts and rebuttals with you. I admit I was a little hot on this subject, as most people in here tend to play the race card so cavalierly and frequently, without the information to back it up.
You, sir, are a true gentleman, and I once again, apologize for getting a bit peevish in my response to you. You have every right to disagree with my opinions, as I do with yours. However, I don't think we are that far apart in hoping to make this country all it should or could be.
Now, can I have a hug??
Peace to you and yours.
Tim

Dear Tim,

Thank You for your kind words. I would like to first acknowledge that you have my most profound and deepest respect. Of course I accept your apology (and am now hugging you in spirit as I type this:redface. It is a great pleasure to be made witness of a man’s true nature and character- so beautifully demonstrated by your above post –even though we have never met face to face. I truly have no questions concerning your tenacity and intentions after reading it. I just Thank You! for the opportunity at both allowing me to befriend you, and getting to know you as the man behind the words and not just as some raw or unapproachable emotions on some thread. In hindsight, I now understand that you were only vocalizing your frustrations with this issue and did not harbor any ill will towards anyone. And we can all relate to that. Again, I apologize for singling you out in any negative way with my own postings and should have instead chosen a more neutral association or point of address.

Aside from all that, you were right when you said that we are not that far apart in hoping to make this country all it should or could be. Nor were you wrong in trying to articulate your desire- of and for a people to help themselves (and do something more) in spite of the bad hand they were dealt in life (or especially when it seems everyone is supposedly against them). I may have challenged how you went about getting that point across, but I do not dismiss it whole-heartedly because of that; it would be foolish of me to do so. Furthermore, the fact that we are even engaging each other in dialogs of this sort, attest more to “what is going right” in this country, then what is going wrong. And as individuals, of like mind and heart, continue to foster these notions- and very noble pursuits -there is yet still hope for this country, her people, and for this world! (Again, as made evident, with you.)

Most Respectfully,

Ted D.

Ciao-