When did you 'de-religify' yourself

[B_Hickboy]

How hip you all are. I can't pontificate anybody out of a belief they haven't pontificated themselves into, so I'll shut up.

I hope you and your fears enjoy each other.

 

[Calboner]

so I'll shut up.

Good plan.

 

[D_Tyrone_Tittickler]

I find it interesting that for nearly everyone in this thread, "religion" has meant Christianity or some form of it, and being "de-religified" has meant losing or abandoning one's faith. The identification of religion with faith is, I think, peculiar to Christianity. I is not a part of Judaism, at least. (Please note that I said that the identification of religion with faith is not a part of Judaism, not that faith is not a part of Judaism.)

I think it was in the years following my bar mitzvah that it became apparent to me that if belief in God is anything other than a form of superstition then no one had yet enabled me to see the difference between the two. (This is still the case.) As someone said earlier in this thread, I was "de-religified" when I began to think for myself. But the attitude of rabbis seemed to be that God has given us (the Jews) certain laws to observe, and even if I didn't believe in God or didn't believe that the observances were his laws, my observance of them was still expected of me. To be sure, the observances would not have endured as they have without the belief in their divine origin; but it is the observances more than the beliefs that bind Jewish communities together.

I think that Christians, and especially Protestants, grow up with the idea that faith is essential to salvation, and that in consequence, if their faith decays while they are still observing religious rituals, they feel that they are committing a grave sin by making false professions. I may be wrong about this. In any case, I believe that Jews are less likely to have this attitude, and that if they do have it, they would have acquired it from their Christian cultural surroundings rather than from Jewish tradition.

I agree with your comments, Cal, especially your statement in the last paragraph, "Christians, and especially Protestants, grow up with the idea that faith is essential to salvation..." This is true, but anyone who espouses that he or she only needs to believe is mistaken. Faith accompanied by good works is the key to salvation. I can believe profoundly in all of the Christian teachings, but if I do not put these teachings into daily practice I cannot be authentically Christian. The Parable of the Good Samaritan clearly illustrates this (Luke 10:25-37).

 

[D_Tintagel_Demondong]

I can only speak from my experiences, but I have had prayers answered, survived an accident which I probably shouldn't have, have had financial needs taken care of, and I can go on and on. No one but God could have orchestrated it.

So God is the cause when good things happen. Who causes bad things to happen?

 

[prepstudinsc]

So God is the cause when good things happen. Who causes bad things to happen?

It's not always a "who", but it can be a "what", as well. We have free will, we can choose to make decisions. These are not always good and can bring us into bad situations. God and Satan can also bring about bad things. Bad things often make us stronger, so God allows them to happen.
We don't always understand things down here, but that's faith. For example, we see the suffering of a person dying with cancer and people are praying for their healing. Then that person dies. Does that mean that they are not healed? Of course not, they were healed more gloriously than we can imagine on earth. They are healthy and whole again and sitting at the banquet feast in heaven. That dying person might well have had family members who were not Christian, but through the illness and death, someone might have come to faith in Jesus. Christianity is for more complex than what one sees on the surface, yet at the same time, we only have to have the tiniest faith to believe. We're not supposed to understand things like the Trinity, or the Virgin Birth. Maybe we'll find out when we get to heaven, but I don't care if I know then or not. All I know is that I will be reunited with people I loved in my earthly life, like my grandparents, and I will get to meet my father who died suddenly when I was just a few months old. There will be no suffering, no war, no oppression. We're just like pilgrims on a journey through a foreign land while on earth, heaven is where we come from and where we will return.

I can't make you believe, nor do I want to force religion at you. All I can talk about is my experience. However, I was raised in the church and have been a believer my whole life. No matter what comes and goes in my life, God and Jesus provide a strong foundation for me.

With that said, I have to go hop in the shower and get ready for church. :biggrin1:

 

[Calboner]

I agree with your comments, Cal, especially your statement in the last paragraph, "Christians, and especially Protestants, grow up with the idea that faith is essential to salvation..." This is true, but anyone who espouses that he or she only needs to believe is mistaken. Faith accompanied by good works is the key to salvation.

That is a point of division between the followers of Luther and Calvin on the one hand and the rest of Christendom on the other, isn't it?

 

[Phil Ayesho]

Stop looking for a reward in the next life.

The problem with the inherent concept of "salvation" or "damnation" is that it is ethically and morally bankrupt.

The religious do not act morally, they act enitrley in their own self interest. Whether you are doing good works or keeping faith out of fear of hellfire, or doing so out of anticipation of your heavenly 'reward' you are are merely employing the 'carrot and stick' approach to morality.

The ethical framework of a 3 year old.


Atheists, who believe in no punishment nor reward for their earthly behavior behave mroally for the sake of moral conduct itself... because it makes for a better world HERE and NOW... because they feel compassion or sympathy...

But I will not love as a mere laborer... in anticipation of my wages...

That is true morality...
True spirituality.

You want a heaven? Roll up your sleeves and get to work.... right here and right now. Stop pinning your hopes on some childish fantasy that you can not even describe without looking like an idiot.


And every person who imagines that GOd has saved them from an accident that should have killed them is simply practicing staggering egotism... Of course... its an easy assumption for the SURVIVOR to make... that their prayers were answered... and the prayers of those who prayed in vain? Obviously you must have survived because you were BETTER than them, right? You were a lot tighter with God than they must have been... you had the TRUE faith......

It's a pretty arrogant assumption to make that God should elect to save YOU out of all the thousands who die each week...

...such a conclusion implies that all those who die in accident did NOT have God on their sides... were somehow LESS spiritual, less blessed...


The worst thing about the supposedly 'faithful' is their unmitigated gall at assuming they have the inside track on God.

But then, delusional people are always the most dangerous and destructive.

 

[prepstudinsc]

Stop looking for a reward in the next life.

The problem with the inherent concept of "salvation" or "damnation" is that it is ethically and morally bankrupt.

The religious do not act morally, they act enitrley in their own self interest. Whether you are doing good works or keeping faith out of fear of hellfire, or doing so out of anticipation of your heavenly 'reward' you are are merely employing the 'carrot and stick' approach to morality.

The ethical framework of a 3 year old.


Atheists, who believe in no punishment nor reward for their earthly behavior behave mroally for the sake of moral conduct itself... because it makes for a better world HERE and NOW... because they feel compassion or sympathy...

But I will not love as a mere laborer... in anticipation of my wages...

That is true morality...
True spirituality.

You want a heaven? Roll up your sleeves and get to work.... right here and right now. Stop pinning your hopes on some childish fantasy that you can not even describe without looking like an idiot.


And every person who imagines that GOd has saved them from an accident that should have killed them is simply practicing staggering egotism... Of course... its an easy assumption for the SURVIVOR to make... that their prayers were answered... and the prayers of those who prayed in vain? Obviously you must have survived because you were BETTER than them, right? You were a lot tighter with God than they must have been... you had the TRUE faith......

It's a pretty arrogant assumption to make that God should elect to save YOU out of all the thousands who die each week...

...such a conclusion implies that all those who die in accident did NOT have God on their sides... were somehow LESS spiritual, less blessed...


The worst thing about the supposedly 'faithful' is their unmitigated gall at assuming they have the inside track on God.

But then, delusional people are always the most dangerous and destructive.

How do you think that you can judge why I do what I do? You don't know why I choose to do good works.

As to being saved in an accident, who are you to question what God did or who God saves. Sometimes dying here is actually the ultimate healing.
I will forever be plagued by problems with a disk in my lower back and from arthritis in my spine from where one of my vertebrae cracked. There are days when I can hardly walk and have to take pain killers to get by. Not a day goes by when I don't have pain. I know that the cause of the accident was purely Satan trying to mess up my career, because being a church musician, my job is to lead people in worship. All I know is that for some reason, God chose to let me live and be healed, but for some reason, I have to suffer with pain down here. The pain and suffering we bear on earth makes us stronger. It just gives me a testimony to bear to others. I don't care whether you believe me or not, all I know is that I know God was not ready for me to die.

My father dropped dead at 31 years old. Why did God take him to heaven and leave a 28 year old widow with a baby only a few months old? Who knows. I hope that I'll find out the answer one day, but if I don't it's not for me to understand.

Having faith means that we have to put aside earthly thought and focus on God. I don't claim to be perfect, but I try to live the best life I can.
Jesus died for my sins, but that doesn't mean that I can just do what I want, when I want and how I want. Because I've been saved, sanctified and filled with the Holy Ghost, I want to live the best that I can so others can see Jesus in me.

Sorry if you don't believe it, I'm not going to shove my faith down your throat. I can only share my experience, but I know I'm going to heaven and at least for me, this life on earth is just a short journey and my reward is above.

 

[Calboner]

As to being saved in an accident, who are you to question what God did or who God saves.

It seems to me that questioning such matters is far more admirable than claiming knowledge of them, as you do. For instance:

I can only speak from my experiences, but I have had prayers answered, survived an accident which I probably shouldn't have, have had financial needs taken care of, and I can go on and on. No one but God could have orchestrated it.

I know that the cause of the accident was purely Satan trying to mess up my career, because being a church musician, my job is to lead people in worship. All I know is that for some reason, God chose to let me live and be healed, but for some reason, I have to suffer with pain down here. The pain and suffering we bear on earth makes us stronger. It just gives me a testimony to bear to others. I don't care whether you believe me or not, all I know is that I know God was not ready for me to die.

How extraordinary that you, a mere mortal, should have so much knowledge of God's ways that you can look at the events of your life and determine -- can know, as you claim -- which ones were God's work and which ones were not. And not only that:

I can only share my experience, but I know I'm going to heaven and at least for me, this life on earth is just a short journey and my reward is above.

You also claim to know that God has destined you for heaven -- that he would not, for instance, send you to hell or at least purgatory for having the presumption and self-conceit to think that you have insight into his inscrutable ways.

It has always seemed odd to me that some religious people will start out talking about their religious beliefs as just that, beliefs, but end up claiming to have not mere belief in God but knowledge of his specific acts in the world.

 

[Phil Ayesho]

How do you think that you can judge why I do what I do? You don't know why I choose to do good works.

I have a mind. I can think and I can reason. If you do good works to be saved... which is what you implied, then you are doing it for yourself, not others.

Religion seeks to control the actions of others thru the twin motivators of fear of punishment and promise of reward. Nowadays, because life for the middle class is pretty good, it is harder to imagine a vengeful God... so folks tend to gloss over the the actual descriptions of God's actions in the bible and focus on God being a "good guy". ( this is a pretty modern take on God, and purely the result of a better life bought thru Science and reason...rather than religion)

But Still... the childish idea of ETERNAL LIFE is a pretty big inducement...

If you truly do good works without ANY regard to your own salvation... then you can not credit religion for those good works... and in fact, could do just as well or better without religion altogether.

As to being saved in an accident, who are you to question what God did or who God saves. Sometimes dying here is actually the ultimate healing.

Well... I can tell you who I am not.... I am NOT the person who thinks he is so damn important to God's plan that God has to personally intervene to prevent his death.

Do you have the slightest idea how arrogant and presumptuous it is for you to Imagine that God took a personal hand in saving your life?

How it is even MORE presumptous for you to assert that for OTHER people, maybe dying is the best thing?
Who the heck are YOU to be making such judgments?
Especially considering you have not one single iota of evidence to back up your 'feelings' about how special you are....

I will forever be plagued by problems with a disk in my lower back and from arthritis in my spine from where one of my vertebrae cracked. There are days when I can hardly walk and have to take pain killers to get by. Not a day goes by when I don't have pain.

Welcome to the world of shit happens...

I know that the cause of the accident was purely Satan trying to mess up my career, because being a church musician, my job is to lead people in worship.

Oh fer cryin out loud... Now you are fantasizing that Satan is trying to sabotage your "career" as a Church musician? Seriously?

Let me ask you... if God is willing to intervene to save your life? Why isnlt he willing to intervene and prevent the accident in the first place?
Don't tell me Satan pulled a fast one on ALL knowing God....

( BTW Satan was created by God, with full knowledge , to be evil.... ergo God intended for there to be evil... ergo God knows and is responsible for all evil... ergo, why does God need to create a flunky to do evil when he is already perfectly capable, powerful, knowledgable and willing? )

It just gives me a testimony to bear to others. I don't care whether you believe me or not, all I know is that I know God was not ready for me to die.

Sorry... it does not rise to the level of "know" ... all you BELIEVE.... And hey, you can fabricate ANY rationale you want to believe in... but its still just a fantasy that you are generating within your own mind.

My father dropped dead at 31 years old. Why did God take him to heaven and leave a 28 year old widow with a baby only a few months old?

Read your bible... its because God is Capricious, Cruel, temperamental, and Amoral.
That... or because there simply is no reason.... no guiding hand... no celestial despot tinkering with the narratives of our lives...

Having faith means that we have to put aside earthly thought and focus on God.

And that jibes with cruising a Big Dick site, HOW?

I don't claim to be perfect, but I try to live the best life I can.
Jesus died for my sins, but that doesn't mean that I can just do what I want, when I want and how I want. Because I've been saved, sanctified and filled with the Holy Ghost, I want to live the best that I can so others can see Jesus in me.

Again, how does the sanctification in you mesh with giant cock?

No you aren't perfect... you just claim that the authoer of the entire universe took the time and attentions to reach down and prevent you from dying in an accident caused by the agent of evil HE created in the first place, with perfect knowledge of everything this evil agent would do....

Yeah... read up on delusions of grandeur...

Sorry if you don't believe it, I'm not going to shove my faith down your throat. I can only share my experience, but I know I'm going to heaven and at least for me, this life on earth is just a short journey and my reward is above.

And there you have it... the self centered affirmation of your primary motivation... Selfish gain of your eternal reward.

That, and the blissful schadenfreude you and those like you feel in contemplation of all the suffering those of us who are NOT saved will endure...


Sorry friend... you don't fool me... pure self interest and the smug feeling of spiritual superiority and your own celestial importance make clear the true foundation of your beliefs.
Ego, reward, revenge.

Truthfully... if Satan were real... HE would have been the one to invent religion.

 

[Calboner]

If you do good works to be saved... which is what you implied, then you are doing it for yourself, not others.
[. . .]
If you truly do good works without ANY regard to your own salvation... then you can not credit religion for those good works... and in fact, could do just as well or better without religion altogether.

As I understand, evangelical Protestants believe that human deeds in themselves have no merit whatever, and that they can only be "good works" so far as the doers of them have received God's grace in return for accepting Jesus Christ as their savior. If I have gotten any part of the view wrong, perhaps Prepstud will correct me. Anyway, it is a view that takes human beings to be intrinsically worthless creatures who can only shine in the reflected merit of God so far as they believe in him. So adherents of the view are not much bothered by the observation that the ultimate motive for whatever good works they do is self-interest.

Well... I can tell you who I am not.... I am NOT the person who thinks he is so damn important to God's plan that God has to personally intervene to prevent his death.

Do you have the slightest idea how arrogant and presumptuous it is for you to Imagine that God took a personal hand in saving your life?

How it is even MORE presumptous for you to assert that for OTHER people, maybe dying is the best thing?

I'll be interested to see how (or whether) Prepstud answers these questions.

 

[Rocky14441]

When I was 18 years old. I decided that because religion would not accept my gay friends, I would not accept religion.

You Rock!

I think you have to have it to give it up.

When I was seven, in bible class, they were teaching us about Noah, Jonah, and Job, and I looked at the teacher and said: "Are you kidding?"

They sent me home without any cookies. :frown1:

It didn't help that mom and dad were church deacons.

 

[crossy]

I think I got my head on straight when back in the 1950 era I attended public school in Miami Beach, Florida. When Crossy [sic] used to ask his teachers why there were no "colored" kids in school. The school principal used to regularly call my mum and ask her why Crossy was asking "these" questions about "the colored",etc. Crossy then at a young age decided that going to the religious school across the street and learning how God loves everybody (except in South Florida), with no particular rationale to seperate drinking fountains, bathrooms and city ordinances about black people being seen in the city of Miami Beach after 6PM. I was summarily thrown out of Hebrew School for invoking Jesus in the classroom with the hypocrite teachers in amazement. I decided that God and Jesus were black skinned. That the Jews (my entire 5th grade at North Beach Elementary School) were all jealous and subsequently the Jim Crow bullshit was a Jewish invention. This is how I felt 55 years ago. I look at organized religion strictly as a business, like a Walmart if you please. Boy, Crossy now a self hating, loathing Jew!
I have mellowed slightly over the years.

This post is NOT A TYPICAL BULLSHIT "CROSSY" post or rant! which I occassionally do!

The hatred from all sides promoting segregation made a major change in my outlook on life, any religion, God (the creator). I feel that bright people with shit together eventually fall away from "religion" if not reinforced by their family OR if not a financial, political empowerment..

 

[kit_kat]

When I was 12 years old. I was brought up Christian and started thinking that some things just weren't adding up when I was about 10 and that the answers I got fell short somehow so I read the bible a lot and two years later my mind was made up. However I now believe that I don't know everything so I don't try to topple other people's beliefs unless it's a belief that's causing harm (even to someone who did not share my beliefs), in which case I will fight against that specific problem without trying to kill their god. I think religion is like therapy for some people and I have nothing against someone pursuing something that makes their life easier or better in their perspective. I can even discuss their religions with them from their point of view to me it's just a theoretical discussion. There have been people who at the beginning actually thought I was just a "slightly more radical" member of their religion - including religions that I would never join even on pain of death, but it helps when you want to fight something bad in a religion to try to get it's members to fight it and then leave the fighting to them, after all they know their religion and it's members the best so they'll be more effective, plus you have better things to do with your life.

 

[MASSIVEPKGO_CHUCK]

I never really did or didn't. My parents moved out of their hometown before they could implement real religious teaching. Shame, a good blend of Irish and roman catholic from my mom tells me.

 

[Calboner]

As I understand, evangelical Protestants believe that human deeds in themselves have no merit whatever, and that they can only be "good works" so far as the doers of them have received God's grace in return for accepting Jesus Christ as their savior. If I have gotten any part of the view wrong, perhaps Prepstud will correct me. Anyway, it is a view that takes human beings to be intrinsically worthless creatures who can only shine in the reflected merit of God so far as they believe in him. So adherents of the view are not much bothered by the observation that the ultimate motive for whatever good works they do is self-interest.

Hey, there are some good posts in this old thread. I wonder who wrote this one? Oh, now I remember. . . . :tongue:

 

[FRE]

I have never seriously questioned the existence of God. However, even though I remain a member of the Episcopal Church, decades ago I began to realize that many of the details, which were really rather trivial, received an inordinate amount of attention. I began to become more concerned about how people treated each other than about exactly what they believed.

Jesus, and some of the OT prophets as well, were more concerned about social justice, loving one’s neighbor, helping the poor, etc., than with ritualistic detail. And, Jesus did not use a heavy-handed approach, i.e., he did not tell people that they would go to hell unless they believed in a certain way. Unfortunately, the church soon turned away from the basics and began making excessive demands of the type for which Jesus chided the Pharisees and Sadducees.

It’s interesting to draw a parallel between the ancient Greek classical religion, as defined by Hesiod and Homer, and Christianity. As the Greeks advanced in their thinking, the classical religion became unacceptable because of the bizarre and unjust behavior attributed to some of the Greek gods. The philosophers, in particular, became indifferent to the classical religion. According to the OT of the Bible, God ordered the Hebrews to commit what we now consider genocide. Many of us see that as totally unacceptable and do not believe that God would have approved of such behavior. As I see it, when people write their history, they rationalize some of the things they have done, and the ancient Hebrews did the same, i.e., they claimed that God had ordered them to kill men, women, and children.

So, although I have not become a deist, I strongly emphasize social justice and the social aspects of the Gospel over ritualistic and theological details and eschew people who heavy handedly try to impose their beliefs on others.

 

[FRE]

I think I got my head on straight when back in the 1950 era I attended public school in Miami Beach, Florida. When Crossy [sic] used to ask his teachers why there were no "colored" kids in school. The school principal used to regularly call my mum and ask her why Crossy was asking "these" questions about "the colored",etc. Crossy then at a young age decided that going to the religious school across the street and learning how God loves everybody (except in South Florida), with no particular rationale to seperate drinking fountains, bathrooms and city ordinances about black people being seen in the city of Miami Beach after 6PM. I was summarily thrown out of Hebrew School for invoking Jesus in the classroom with the hypocrite teachers in amazement. I decided that God and Jesus were black skinned. That the Jews (my entire 5th grade at North Beach Elementary School) were all jealous and subsequently the Jim Crow bullshit was a Jewish invention. This is how I felt 55 years ago. I look at organized religion strictly as a business, like a Walmart if you please. Boy, Crossy now a self hating, loathing Jew!
I have mellowed slightly over the years.

This post is NOT A TYPICAL BULLSHIT "CROSSY" post or rant! which I occassionally do!

The hatred from all sides promoting segregation made a major change in my outlook on life, any religion, God (the creator). I feel that bright people with shit together eventually fall away from "religion" if not reinforced by their family OR if not a financial, political empowerment..

It's amazing that it took about 2,000 years for the church to discover that slavery and racial discrimination were wrong. From the beginning, they should have realized that from the teachings of Jesus. However, we must keep in mind that some Christian denominations DID opposed slavery and racial discrimination; they were the denominations which many would now disparagingly refer to as "liberal." But, I think that Jesus would have been considered to be liberal.

In the Middle Ages, there was a war between Bulgaria and the Byzantium Empire over 3 words in the Nicene creed (the filioque, the words "and the son"). Following the defeat of Bulgaria, thousands of Bulgarian soldiers had their eyes gouged out for doing nothing more than defending their country. Actually, I suspect that theology was the excuse for the war rather than the reason for it, but the fact is that religion was used as an excuse for behavior which I am quite certain God would have condemned. And, the Byzantium Empire considered itself to be a theocracy; one of the titles of the emperor was "equal of the apostles."

So, it's obvious that where influencing people to behave in a just, kind, and civilized manner is concerned, organized religion has a checkered history. It is that checkered history that understandably has resulted in negative attitudes towards religion; some of the very churches whose attitudes have caused the negative attitudes are now complaining that people discriminate against Christians!!

 

[D_MisterBater]

high school, junior year.

 

[Zeuhl34]

I was raised Catholic, though I was never very religious. I could probably be classified as a deist in about 8th grade, and I remained marginally involved in religion for a few years (if for no other reason than that fact that I attended a Catholic school). My mom kinda pressured me into being confirmed my sophomore year of high school, but I really didn't care too strongly one way or the other. (At least I got a cool fourth name I sometimes use when signing stuff.) Shortly after I was confirmed is when I stopped identifying as Christian/Catholic and identified as deist. Since then I've shifted to my current self-identification of "non-religious."