Where there's a Will, there's a Grace

Discussion in 'Relationships, Discrimination, and Jealousy' started by Imported, Oct 23, 2003.

  1. Imported

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    throb919: There's a fun (and funny) article in the October issue of Men's Health magazine by this title, suggesting "A gay friend can be your best secret weapon for understanding women." I'd hoped to link y'all to it, but the articles at menshealth.com don't reflect current issue offerings. I suppose I could've posted this on the (hated) "Do gay men hate women?" thread (to further dispel that misguided misogynistic myth) or at "Women's Issues"--but it's really aimed at straight guys. It's about "Relationships" so this seems the right place for it (although not about how a big dick affects those relationships per se).

    The gay-man / straight-woman best-friendship has been mentioned here by several of our illustrious Ladies Auxiliary members (Sammygirly immediately comes to mind) and it's certainly true in my case, too. The magazine piece (written by Michael Callahan and cited here totally without permission) advises that you het-guys can benefit from these relationships:

    Diamonds are not the quickest way to a woman's heart. A gay man is.

    For those men still trying to figure out women (translation: any straight guy), the real value of cultivationg a friendship with a gay man can be summed up in one word: Berlitz. Homosexuals are the ultimate Berlitz students: From birth we're dropped into a world that never feels like home, and from childhood on, we're taught gender roles that are counterintuitive to what we feel inside. Dolls bad, baseballs good; lusting for cheerleaders good, lusting for boy gymnasts bad. With our outside and inside compasses at odds, we simply shrug and figure it will all, ahem, straighten out in the end. (...)

    The point is that almost all gay men are raised as straight men. We grow up as an odd mixed breed: adopting a hetero identity, but always subliminally in tune with our true selves. As a result, we end up sitting with the popular girls at lunch and becoming the boys they confide in and trust. They can sense that we're not after what you're after. So it's us they tell all of their deepest secrets, phobias (number one: You won't call them again), and dreams. Eventually, we accumulate a treasure trove of insider information--from what cologne turns her off (musk) to what makes her want to give oral sex (suggestion: Trim your pubic hair).

    We've also garnered the power to make and break you. A woman will ask another woman if a guy is worth dating, but no matter the answer, she'll be suspicious. When it comes to relationships, women are much more competitive than men are. But when a woman asks her gay friend if a guy is worth dating, she lives for his answer: He is the perfect judge and jury, equipped to understand the primal urges of the species, yet with no stake in the verdict. (...)

    The sad truth is that few straight men have gay friends. This is mainly because of what I call the "ick" factor. Ask any straight guy his top sexual fantasy, and it no doubt involves those catfighting babes who tumble into the fountain on the Miller Lite commercial, only in his version they're nude. But any mention of sex between men gets one resounding, wincing response: Ick.

    News flash: We are not checking you out. (Unless you are the guy on the cover of this magazine, in which case we're most definitely checking you out.) We don't spend time conjuring up images of your sex life, so you shouldn't have any trouble returning the favor.

    How do you find us? Chances are you're not popping in for a cocktail at Lure (don't ask) anytime soon, and although the occasional flamer wearing the Britney crop top at the mall is easy to spot, the truth is that you really can't tell most of us from, well, you. So do some basic detective work. Think of the guys at your office, in your extended family, from your old college frat, even on your Friday-night softball team. Who's single? Who's decent looking, yet never seems to date or check out women? Who looks as though he's going out on the town--when he's going to the gym? You need to hunt.

    Or maybe just do this: Next time you meet a woman, find out if she has a gay friend--a Will to her Grace--then make an effort to get him on your side. He knows her moods, her weak spots, and far more of her secrets than you ever will. He can sink you or save you. All you have to do in return is treat him like the rest of your buds. Ask him about his job, his vacation plans, and, yes, his dates. We don't bite.

    Unless we're asked.
     
  2. Imported

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    ORCABOMBER: I suppose you could always ask a woman you are close to how she feels?

    Interesting point, but it does sound a bit cliche'd, but since I'm not gay....well.
     
  3. Pecker

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    Understanding Women.

    Speaking of oxymorons :D

    If you ask her how she feels about anything other than a sexual position you'd better be ready to be more confused than ever. I think God must have changed architects after the male brain was made.

    We're almost incompatible.

    But not quite. :p

    Pecker

    (I've seen the evidence. I want different evidence.)
     
  4. Imported

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    pghcyclist: One thing gay men have in common with straight women is that we've both dated men. Talk about f-cked up and *not* understanding! Yeesh, you should try dating men sometime -- it ain't easy. They give out the wrong phone number, don't call back, say one thing and mean something else, only seem to be interested in sex, yeesh.

    Of course gay men and straight women get along -- the enemy of my enemy is my friend.

    ::)

    (p.s. men are pigs -- that's why we like them)

    (p.p.s. yes, I am joking here)
     
  5. Imported

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    ORCABOMBER: I think that's quite literally Pecker. Something to do with hormones, as always.
     
  6. Imported

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    Javierdude22: Tony, nice article. With that I mean this is serious food for discussion

    The thing is that the girl or guy that wrote this, in my opnion, has a bit of a Sex and the City-esque view on life. This article, although maybe trying to do away with stereotypes, seems to only exacerbate them. But eh...my opnion.

    Like mentioned before, Im not sure where I stand on this hopelessly chewed out topic of sexuality. And when I read this article, I more and more decide not to choose, fuck everyone, I'm me myself and I. That is seriously my honest reaction to this. If I try to discern why I feel this, it must be that I myself do not fit anywhere near any generalization made by any aspect of being straight, gay, or a relationship with girls. And of course, human tendency is to generalize, make it measurable.

    I take this too seriously maybe, but i'm merely thinking out loud I guess.

    See, any statement made is this article is flawed, and in my opinion also based on poor judgement. Sure, it's Men's Health, so what do we expect. The article discusses hobbies and sexuality like you should have a childhood filled with pink colours, Barbie Dolls, and a way more than usual interest in dancing and gracious moves if you have gay tendencies.

    And then he touches upon something that somehow did make me a bit irritated. An explanation for straight guys not wanting to be friends with (open) gay people is the -ick- factor. Sure, maybe for 50%, ill give you that. But what about the other 50% then? Well, he already gave an explanation for half of those 50% that do not have an ick factor but still dont wanna hang ith openly gays. It's 'News Flash: You ÁRE checking us out'. For me personally though this is a very important reason why i do not happily get involved with openly gay men. Upto now, there seems to have always been an underlying reason. And dont get me started on what some tricks get pulled. It can range from undressing with the eyes, to yum-noises, to shouted remarks in a subway like 'I wonder how big his dick is'. I even had my crotch grabbed once.

    After four or five of those experiences and a few confesions that they hav a crush on you, ya might think twice on that statement.

    And I'm sorry, but although most gay people would like to believe that they look straight, most dont. How on earth can this article complain that straight guys staw away from gay people cause their gay, when later he states thy cannot be recognized. Like I said, most, and maybe 80% can be recognized. A few silent ones fall into the 'not dating girls enough, so maybe he is' category.

    I also would like to question that gays automatically know what girls want, how they feel, and even that they are such good friends. Too much stereotypes an generalizations. But, the writer did succeed in writing in that funky Sex and the City type style.  
     
  7. Imported

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    throb919: Javvy, Orca--I said it was "fun (and funny)", okay...?

    Javierdude, we have discussed the "sexuality thing" and I still suggest that nobody but you is making you choose anything. I think it's great that you don't comfortably fit into anybody's pigeon-holes, you sexual renegade! If you could just be more comfortable in that yourself...

    I think the author was saying (and it's all generalized and not just a little bit tongue-in-cheek) that gay boys grow up exposed to "boy" things, too. And I read the "ick-factor" as "ick" when thinking about 2 men having sex together. Period. And while the men of LPSG have shown themselves time and time again to be open and enlightened, the "ick-factor" is is alive and well among a large portion of American men.

    I'm really sorry you get hit-on so blatently and obnoxiously. Can't really say anymore about that; unwanted sexual attention of any "flavor" is (to me) always wrong.

    If, as you suggest, "most gay people would like to believe that they look straight," it may have more to do with internalized homophobia than anything else. I, too, cringe at reading gay-boy personal ads that say "straight-acting" or "straight-appearing" whatever. 'Cause, no, they ususally aren't--haircare products alone! (Then again, there's the new "metrosexual" phenomenon.)

    I don't think the writer was really complaining that straight guys stay away from gay guys. I think he was just offering (good-naturedly) that maybe we can help you "get some." And that we're really not all that different. The tone was light, playful--and I thought funny. But I'm looking at it from another point-of-view, I guess. (Maybe we are different...) Sorry to get y'all riled-up. Really...

    Tony
     
  8. Imported

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    Javierdude22: I know the writer meant it to be as funny. I might have come off a bit (very) strong...Not so much anymore cause of my own issues around this topic though. My response to this was actually very unrelated to anything, and just general feeling I have towards the gay-and-loving-it-so-much-the-world-can-know community.

    M irritation I guess around this, is that the gay community hates to be stigmatized, but meanwhile spouts articles like this. You don't get superpowers for being gay, you shouldnt expect special treatment, theres no generalization possible on any feature. You like dudes, thats it.
     
  9. Imported

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    pghcyclist:
    The gay community is hardly monolithic. Any community that has both Andrew Sullivan and Michaelangelo Signorile can hardly be said to have a party line on any topic, especially related to sex or gender issues.

    I disagree that it's as simple as "you like dudes". Certainly there is a sexual context to being gay, but there is also socialization stuff. That's what the author was talking about. Gay men don't go to straight bars to pick up other men, they go to gay bars. There are gay bowling leagues and softball teams, theatre clubs and bridge/card clubs. There is an aspect to being gay that includes a comfort level with where and how you socialize that is beyond simpling liking someone of the same-sex.

    Scott
     
  10. Imported

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    Tender: [quote author=Javierdude23 link=board=relationships;num=1066926393;start=0#7 date=10/23/03 at 13:04:18]
    M irritation I guess around this, is that the gay community hates to be stigmatized, but meanwhile spouts articles like this. You don't get superpowers for being gay, you shouldnt expect special treatment, theres no generalization possible on any feature. You like dudes, thats it.

    [/quote]

    i agree...
    worded some of my thoughts for me...

    Tender
     
  11. Imported

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    sammygirly: ~laughs delightedly~

    I love this topic!

    I am a devoted "fag hag" tis true - my best friend in the whole world is a homosexual male and I wouldn't trade him for the world. Honestly, if I could count the number of women who say to me "Gay...such a loss. He's SO good to women"

    He always says that understanding women is easy - maybe it IS a gay thing. I don't know....but I think maybe yes, straight men could learn a thang or two from the gay community. Of course, my drama queen squad could certainly learn a few things from the straight side too ~laughs~
     
  12. jonb

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    I have several friends who are lesbians, so the Will and Grace complex goes the other way too.
     
  13. Imported

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    Javierdude22: See, now were touching upon the actual, underlying issue I was hoping to discuss.

    Sure, gay people wanna go to gay bars, cause they might wanna meet someone. Thats logical, the odds are better. But in my honest opinion, that is as far as it goes, or as it should go.

    Why on earth do gays need a special bowling alley? Maybe I am mistaken, but you go to a bowling alley, with friends, to have a good tim and bowl right? Do gays do that differently? I think not.

    I think we should flip the question. I think that gays in effect dont feel comfortable around straight people. And not because they feel threatened, because that happens only very occassionally in a public surrounding. But simply because they feel discomfort with how straight people communicate.

    And the fact that gay people feel the need to communicate on different levels is my problem. Not even só much on the fact that they do, but mainly their motivation for it. I realise that some gay people cant help acting feminine. But I would argu that a very large percentage ovrdoes it. Ive seen it on a colleague of mine. Around us you can tell he is gay, but its all low key, when hes with other gay people the handbags start popping out and the hips start shaking.

    The exaggeration factor that many gay people have is what irritates me. Act normal, you like men, youre not from Mars. Again, I would like to stress that not all gay people are like this, but a larg percentage is. And sad enough, its exactly the percentage that feels a need to be in the picture.
     
  14. Imported

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    pghcyclist:
    You are right that there is something about the comfort level gay people feel in gay verses straight company. You are also right that some gay people either straighten up around straights and/or camp it up around other gays. Not everyone does it, but some do.

    What I think you are not taking into account is the physical safety and fear of violence or discrimination many gay people live with. When LGBT people are in their community, they feel safe. They can express physical affection (kiss, touch, even grope) that they are afraid to do in many straight communities.

    A coworker might force himself to act straight in the workplace to keep his job, not be denied promotions, etc. That takes work and effort. When that same person goes home and hangs out with people he knows are accepting, he stops making the effort and flaunts it.

    I can't stress enough the effort it takes to either stay in the closet or appear to be someone you are not. What you call exageration may simply be the release -- kinda like a rubber band that has been stretched tight all day and then snaps back suddenly when it is allowed to.

    You say that some of these actions irritate you. I doubt that any gay people you know are totally unaware of this. Someone may exagerate these characteristics to get that reaction -- kinda a reverse control-thing -- a I don't have to act straight for you reaction.

    In the end, though, the irritation you feel is your problem, not theirs.

    Scott
     
  15. Imported

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    throb919: [quote author=sammygirly link=board=relationships;num=1066926393;start=0#10 date=10/23/03 at 18:16:17]Of course, my drama queen squad could certainly learn a few things from the straight side too...[/quote]
    Funny you should say that, Sammy! The MH article just happens to have a sidebar "Four lessons gay men should learn from straight guys." (Javvy--you might like these, too. I'm not done with you yet, but my superpowers are on the blink today. Later okay, alstublieft...?)

    1. Be happy with your three-pack. My straight friends are proud of their bodies despite growing guts and love handles aplenty; those things never stop them from feeling attractive. I, on the other hand, won't consider having sex unless (a) I'm wearing my special boxer-briefs that make my butt look like stone and (b) I'm backlit. Body obsession is one lesson from women I would have been better off not learning.

    2. Good friends don't hold grudges. I could rehash for you, probably word for word, virtually every argument I've had with a gay friend over the past decade. But I won't, because it's still too upsetting. Straight guys forgive within minutes, and forget by the next morning. And, like biceps after a curl, each battle makes their friendships grow stronger.

    3. Make your own scene. Gay men go out in groups, but always with the ulterior motive of scamming dates. Straight guys understand the virtue of going out with friends just to enjoy their company. Sure, they'll take advantage of a hook-up opportunity if it suddenly presents itself, but that's not the main motivation to leave the house in the first place.

    4. Real relationships take time. There was a time when I thought getting a call back from a guy meant we were headed to Pottery Barn to buy china together. Straight guys understand that true connections are built over many rounds of ups and downs, not three rounds of martinis.


    Have at it, guys (and gals)...!
    Tony
     
  16. Imported

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    DerSchwanz: Hear! Hear, Throb919!

    And you, PGHCyclist, are also spot on.

    We gays have all had years of practice while we were in the closet pretending to be straight. Now that we're out we still have to act like straight men to keep our jobs, keep our homes, and not get tied to fences and beaten to death. Oh, and we also have to be careful so as not to offend the delicate sensibilties of bowling alley habitués.

    Never mind, though. The more exposure you have to us, the less narrow will be your acceptance.
     
  17. jonb

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    Oh, one theory I have about women and gay men is that there's no unresolved sexual tension.

    @pghcyclist:
    I have to agree that it's like a rubber band. I've always said that the various ways society makes same-gender couples feel abnormal led to the "bathhouse lifestyle"; not surprisingly, promiscuity led to massive HIV infection, just like how going to work with the flu leads to the entire building getting sick. Thus, Abrahamic philosophy (and later interviews with Viennese neurotics) created the AIDS epidemic. At least, that's always been my theory.
     
  18. Imported

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    headbang8: Dear Abby,

    I'm all in a tizz!  The people I love are tearing each other apart!

    Betty (not her real name) is my faithful fag hag.  We met when cast opposite each other as Mr. And Mrs MacAfee in a student-theater production of Bye-Bye Birdie.  

    (C'mon boys...how many of you met the hag of your dreams through amateur musicals?  Thought so.)

    I call her my Not-Insignificant Other.  And we've enjoyed over twenty years of not-unwedded bliss.

    Betty sports impeccable hag credentials.  

    She smokes like incense, drinks like a drain, and pours obscenity onto the conversation like she pours gravy on mashed potatoes.  That is, abundantly.

    Speaking of abundance, we nicknamed her breasts Hindenberg I and Hindenberg II.  Like their namesake, they ceased to defy gravity in a most spectacular way quite some time ago.

    The two of us even shared a house, Will-and-Grace style.   It was perfect; we agreed early on that she needn't show any grace, and I shouldn't display any will.   (Fag hags are allowed to be a little bit bossy, aren't they?)

    Her sex life?  Tres predictable.   Betty had no trouble finding straight male companionship in her youth.   She used these boys like kleenex... gave them a quick blow, and tossed them away.   And as the years passed, she decided that unless one found the perfect handkerchief, one could stifle the urge to sneeze.   Soon, she stopped looking for the handkerchief entirely.

    Me?  What gay man stops looking for a hanky?  I found mine in a distant city, sticking out of the right-hand back pocket (For joy! A bottom!) which covered the oh-so-cute tush of a dark, elegant man named George.  

    George (not his real name, especially since he's Japanese) balked at meeting Betty.  "She sounds a little bit...well, vulgar." he admitted after I needled him.   He's such a snob.  And because he's the love of my life, I find it endearing.  

    George and I weren't living together at the time, so when Betty came to visit, I arranged for us to meet at a restaurant for dinner.  And George, with a good mannered but patently flimsy excuse, stood us up at the last minute.  

    Well!   Hell hath no fury like a fag hag who discovers there's something in her fag's life she can't control.  Or that might think it's a little bit more important than she is!

    It only got worse when George and I visited my old hometown.  I told Betty that I'd booked a hotel room.

    "Complete nonsense!" she scolded, "You're staying here! I insist."

    "It's not that we wouldn't love to," I mumbled, trying to avoid the telephone equivalent of a scene, "but you see, George has an allergy to cats..."  

    The golden rule.  Cats and boyfriends appear in inverse proportions in a fag hag's life.  And don't you dare point it out.  She slammed down the phone in my ear.

    Oh, Abby, tell me what to do.  They're both acting like children.   It will simply ruin our plans for a tasteful wedding in Vancouver.  I wanted Betty to be our Best Human, but she's threatening to stand us up as an act of spite!  

    Why, I'll need to cancel the whole thing!  That means losing the deposit on the topless lesbian biker escorts for the wedding coach, the speedos for the groomsmen, the size 12 reinforced stilettos for the bridesmaids, and the leather harness for the archdeacon!

    What's more, I'm so upset that I've COMPLETELY forgotten how to be STRAIGHT-ACTING!  My hips have become gorgeous and slim, and move side-to-side as I walk, rather than backward-and-forward.   I traded in the Silverado on a Hyundai.  I found myself serving chardonnay to my dinner party guests.  I am neat and well organised.   And--gasp!--George and I bought a lovely set of china at the Pottery Barn.

    Yours sincerely,

    headbang8

    (not his real name)
     
  19. Imported

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    Javierdude22: [quote author=pghcyclist link=board=relationships;num=1066926393;start=0#13 date=10/24/03 at 07:34:26]

    You are right that there is something about the comfort level gay people feel in gay verses straight company.  You are also right that some gay people either straighten up around straights and/or camp it up around other gays.  Not everyone does it, but some do.

    What I think you are not taking into account is the physical safety and fear of violence or discrimination many gay people live with.  When LGBT people are in their community, they feel safe.  They can express physical affection (kiss, touch, even grope) that they are afraid to do in many straight communities.

    A coworker might force himself to act straight in the workplace to keep his job, not be denied promotions, etc.  That takes work and effort.  When that same person goes home and hangs out with people he knows are accepting, he stops making the effort and flaunts it.

    I can't stress enough the effort it takes to either stay in the closet or appear to be someone you are not.  What you call exageration may simply be the release -- kinda like a rubber band that has been stretched tight all day and then snaps back suddenly when it is allowed to.

    You say that some of these actions irritate you.  I doubt that any gay people you know are totally unaware of this.  Someone may exagerate these characteristics to get that reaction -- kinda a reverse control-thing -- a I don't have to act straight for you reaction.  

    In the end, though, the irritation you feel is your problem, not theirs.

    Scott[/quote]

    Ok, so what you mention could be called a theory. Gay men fel restricted, threatened, and looked after at work and public places so after they have free time, they let loose.

    My opinion is that although it might account for some people's behviour, it doesnt hold. Lets take gay tolerant cities like New York and San Francisco. Or lets take my own country, I can safely say noboy is scared to get beat up in Holland, and especially not on the work place. S technically, this wuld mean we should see a lesser degree of gay-ness or something? Alas, tolerance only gives opportunity to exhibit extreme behaviour in any public place possible. Ive seen it everywhere, and in the news.

    I guess we take a different perspctive on this: you think gay people's actions are restricted by gays and therefore become overly gay acting when they can. I think that gay people dont feel the need to act a certain obvious way around straight people, but start overdoing it when they are in a gay surrounding. I gues it depends on how you look at it. Some people could never hide they were gay cause they had femininity written all over their face. I can understand them. But theres just too many people that had no difficulty in the average actions, but became feminine right after their coming out. And no, they were not holding back, they were overdoing it right after.

    I have10 gay colleagues. All act feminine. I get along great with them, and they dont irritat me, cause although we discuss this here, I dont hav a problem with it. One guy however acts feminine and has a siren on, meaning that everyone should known he's in the house, and that helps for me to not be fond of him. It turned to dislike when he mentioned he thought every guy was gay, and hit on almost every guy in our group.

    Its all about subtlty.
     
  20. Imported

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    pghcyclist:
    You are certainly right that this is a cultural thing and varies from society to society (or even in different cities).

    When in Europe, I see straight people having "sex" openly in parks and other public places -- heavy kissing, groping, fondling, etc -- behaviors that are more extreme that someone from most of the US would be accustomed to. I've never been to Holland, but I've certainly heard that there is no shortage of places for straight people to go that might be considered 'extreme'. I am skeptical that these behaviors you describe are isolated to 'gays'. I suspect you and others simply overlook it when straight people do similar things.

    straight
    Not all gay men act feminine. Not all straight men act masculine. (however a culture defines 'masculine' or 'femine')

    I beg to differ. Before a person comes out, they repress their sexuality. Some may repress it more than others, but all do. Coming out is the process of coming to terms with your gay/lesbian/bi/trans nature.

    How many posts have we seen here where a well-hung guy is propositioned inappropriately by a women, or made to feel like a sex object simply because he has a big dick? Boorish behavior is not isolated to gay people, nor is it isolated to straight people. You should be irritated because the guy is a creep, not because he is gay or in your opinion acts feminine.
     
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