Where there's a Will, there's a Grace

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longtimelurker: [quote author=headbang8 link=board=relationships;num=1066926393;start=0#17 date=10/24/03 at 23:35:12]Dear Abby,

I'm all in a tizz!  The people I love are tearing each other apart!
[/quote]

Sorry headbang, but before your post gets lost in the ongoing battle I'd have to say that this must be one of the funniest, most well-written pieces I've seen in a while. I pity you if it's true, but then you'll not be the first one who's friends didn't like their partners...
 
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7x6andchg: I loved that post, too, LTL - I was laughing out loud.

Scott's last point is well taken, Javierdude...the guy with "the siren on" isn't annoying because of his homosexuality or effeminate actions. He's annoying because he has a "siren on"..a boor, a loudmouth, a "m'as-tu vu" as the French would say. (Literally means "have you seen ME?" for those who don't speak French)

There are people of ALL walks of life like that. Some people find them to be the life of the proverbial party. Others merely find them annoying. It's a matter of personal taste.

Interesting article Tony - written in a fashion that makes it a little over-simplified perhaps, but I'm willing to be that quite a bit of it is true to some degree...and it certainly has started a bit of a discussion, eh?

7x6&C
 
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Tender: [quote author=headbang8 link=board=relationships;num=1066926393;start=0#17 date=10/24/03 at 23:35:12]Dear Abby,

I'm all in a tizz!  The people I love are tearing each other apart!

[/quote]


headbang8,
while i am not sure that i understand your predictament fully, as i have not been in this situation personally...
i would say that your blissful relationship with Betty Birdie, has flown the coup...
she is probably only staying around for the chardonnay you serve at your parties....
There may be a way for you to charge those deposits on HER credit card, before you send those bosy Hindenburgs packin'...
That will relieve you of her, and those stressful debts...

Mind you acting is a talent... Hips that sway, Hips that Swing, they are all good... dont worry. Try serving Bud Light at your next Home Interior Show, maybe you will feel more comfortable with that. Have you tried leaving the World Series playing quietly in the background while passing out your party favors? If those things do not straightn out your feelings, you may need some counseling, along with George...
As far as the other obstacles you face with George, it could be that he stood you up at the last minute to see your reation. Would you still love him? How would the Buzard react?...
Have you considered marrying on the lawn of the Kleenex company? Im sure they would welcome the free advertising, saving you money. And you never know--one of you may pick up some fresh hankies at the ceramony...
The only other option you have is to insist that George move in with you and the Boss...
but make it clear to the chick-- that you are only keeping her around to cook; and wash those new dishes!
Good Luck in your life's ventures, and on your white hankie wedding...

Yours Truely,
Abby
 
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headbang8: [quote author=longtimelurker link=board=relationships;num=1066926393;start=20#20 date=10/25/03 at 10:40:13]

...I pity you if it's true, but then you'll not be the first one who's friends didn't like their partners...[/quote]

No, it's not true. But then again, it's not entirely untrue either. ;)
 
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throb919: Javvy--Still not quite ready to take you on, man. The other guys are doing such a great job. (Yes, pghcyclist and headbang8--that means you.) And there's still a bit of the "give 'em enough rope..." factor that makes me want to sit it out a while longer. (But dank u wel...this has turned into a great discussion.)

7x6&C--We have "m'as-tu vu's" in American gayspeak too. We call them look-at-me's. There are hordes of 'em, as you may imagine. (You've got to be the hippest straight guy in all of Wisconsin! No wait--let me re-phrase that: the hippest guy in all of Wisconsin.) "M'as-tu-vu" indeed, mon frère...!)

Headbang8--As luck would have it, my best-friend since junior high school and five-star fag-hag, Wilma (not her real name), and my boyfriend of 20+ years (yep--that's what I said), Barney (not his real name), get along famously. And have known each other since Barney's day one...or maybe day two. She and I were in plays together too: she choreographed "Brigadoon" in high school and I was a sword-dancer, of course (and looked cute in a kilt). She took it really seriously (and professionally) and has been working (successfully) in NYC since college. (She was "Sheila" on Broadway in "A Chorus Line," among other roles.) She didn't get the Hindenbergs, though (a dancer, don'tcha-know?) and even had a huge sign in her dressing room once that said "Wilma--don't forget your bra!" because the breasts were...uh...y'know...sewn in it. She never married 'til 5 years ago (do the math) and when she and Fred (not his real name) wed, Barney and I were the happiest guys there--and the ones who carried her aloft in a chair dancing around at the reception while Fred's aunts directed our actions (our Southern Baptist backgrounds don't include many raucous Jewish wedding receptions!) Oh, but enough about me--I hope you and George-san will proceed gaily forward! Betty will get over it: Missy is not going to miss the wedding! And you're having dykes-on-bikes as an escort?! Fab-ulous! I'll head to Pottery Barn to check-out that pattern--I mean pick up something in that pattern. But...uh...about the chardonnay? That is so last year! This year it's pinot grigio, please!

Mazel tov, y'all!
 
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Javierdude22:
You are certainly right that this is a cultural thing and varies from society to society (or even in different cities).

When in Europe, I see straight people having "sex" openly in parks and other public places -- heavy kissing, groping, fondling, etc -- behaviors that are more extreme that someone from most of the US would be accustomed to.  I've never been to Holland, but I've certainly heard that there is no shortage of places for straight people to go that might be considered 'extreme'.  I am skeptical that these behaviors you describe are isolated to 'gays'.  I suspect you and others simply overlook it when straight people do similar things.

But if that is indeed a cultural thing, than I still do not have an explanation as to why so many gay men act 'average', so to speak, around a mixture of str8, bi, or gay men (a.k.a. society), and start flaming when they are in a purely gay surrounding. It is not because they feel threatened physically, or careerwise, for they do it in Amsterdam, SF, NY as well.

I'm Bi ;)

Not all gay men act feminine.  Not all straight men act masculine. (however a culture defines 'masculine' or 'femine')

I know, i have mentioned that somewhere already. But a very large and majority part does act feminine. And of course not all str8 men ct masculine in a by society desired way, but that is mostly confined to emotional reactions (how to react when your girl gets harassed, if you are in a panic situation etc.) or hobbies (opera, art etc.). But I'm not referring to that, im talking about simple -actions-.

I beg to differ.  Before a person comes out, they repress their sexuality.  Some may repress it more than others, but all do.  Coming out is the process of coming to terms with your gay/lesbian/bi/trans nature.
Sexuality merely means 'that you like a certain sex', and this is the jit of the iscussion, i dont believe there is a nature to it. It certainly has evolved like this, but i dont believe there is more to it than you liking the same sex. Sex choice, means that you express a preference. I have several preferences, I also have the preference to eat oriental food over Dutch cooked vegetabl. But I do not attribute a change of actions to it. I do not relate my preference for oriental food with the simplest actions I do during a day. Sure, sex choices receive society's judgement, food choice doesnt. But that still does not explain the link to change an array of everyday actions for it.

How many posts have we seen here where a well-hung guy is propositioned inappropriately by a women, or made to feel like a sex object simply because he has a big dick?  Boorish behavior is not isolated to gay people, nor is it isolated to straight people.  You should be irritated because the guy is a creep, not because he is gay or  in your opinion acts feminine.

You are absolutely right on the last point, he is a creep not because he is gay, but for simple character traits.
But on the proposition thing. Subtlty (is that how you spell it? :-/) is the key word again. 93% of westrn population is straight. 7% is gay, of which 5% pretty obviously gay (not scientifical, but a mere assessment). That would give you a pretty good idea of who likes who. Couldnt some people be subtle enough to not make seriously rude comments? Sure, girls do it too, and guys do it towards girl too. But I can honestly tell you that the frequency, and the severity of the insults or rudeness are way greater, than the ones from straight people. And that on a 7% population.

I also will not discuss how often it hits the news in Holland about older guys raping or abusing younger, or adolescent guys. How every park in Holland has nightly visitors leving behind condoms, gangbanging in parks where the next day children come and play. It can be mentioned that straight people do the same. But I am sorry, in Holland it is not anywhere near as severe. Or at least it happens inside the homes. We do not have biased newsreports here. And considering again the percentage of people that are gay (let's say 7%) and the frequency of sexual crimes, than it becomes shamefull.

And again, I am not at all saying that every gay person is like this, or whatever. I'm saying there is a large population within the gay community that does not have any moral values, respect for other people or tact.
 
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longtimelurker: [quote author=Javierdude23 link=board=relationships;num=1066926393;start=20#25 date=10/26/03 at 01:54:56]
I also will not discuss how often it hits the news in Holland about older guys raping or abusing younger, or adolescent guys. How every park in Holland has nightly visitors leving behind condoms, gangbanging in parks where the next day children come and play. It can be mentioned that straight people do the same. But I am sorry, in Holland it is not anywhere near as severe. Or at least it happens inside the homes. We do not have biased newsreports here. And considering again the percentage of people that are gay (let's say 7%) and the frequency of sexual crimes, than it becomes shamefull.
[/quote]

Now that is quite suprising. Homosexual rape (rightly or wrongly) is still seen as more shameful here (and I'd imagine in most parts of the world and tends to go unreported more than heterosexual rape. In that case, I'd imagine the numbers to be higher than what is reported.

Or then (and this is a lot more likely) - the cases that you mention are seen as more 'shocking' by the media, and hence are given more prominence. I can't speak for Dutch media, but I can assure you that that would certainly be the case in British and American press, and I doubt it would be different there.
 
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pghcyclist:
But if that is indeed a cultural thing, than I still do not have an explanation as to why so many gay men act 'average', so to speak, around a mixture of str8, bi, or gay men (a.k.a. society), and start flaming when they are in a purely gay surrounding. It is not because they feel threatened physically, or careerwise, for they do it in Amsterdam, SF, NY as well.

Why do you think they don't fear? Gay bashings still occur in these places, even if they are considered more accepting. People still discriminate, even if it is not overt. there is a glass ceiling for gay people in these cultures.

I know, i have mentioned that somewhere already. But a very large and majority part does act feminine. And of course not all str8 men ct masculine in a by society desired way, but that is mostly confined to emotional reactions (how to react when your girl gets harassed, if you are in a panic situation etc.) or hobbies (opera, art etc.). But I'm not referring to that, im talking about simple -actions-.

I disagree that it is a very large majority. Some people do, some people don't.

But on the proposition thing. Subtlty (is that how you spell it? ) is the key word again. 93% of westrn population is straight. 7% is gay, of which 5% pretty obviously gay (not scientifical, but a mere assessment). That would give you a pretty good idea of who likes who. Couldnt some people be subtle enough to not make seriously rude comments? Sure, girls do it too, and guys do it towards girl too. But I can honestly tell you that the frequency, and the severity of the insults or rudeness are way greater, than the ones from straight people. And that on a 7% population.

Percentages of population change depending on how the question is asked. What you are writing here is based upon your own observations and is not a universal truism.

And again, I am not at all saying that every gay person is like this, or whatever. I'm saying there is a large population within the gay community that does not have any moral values, respect for other people or tact.

I'm sorry you feel that way. I strongly disagree. I strongly suspect that because you have encountered some people like that, you are assuming that it is a dominant (large) portion of gay people. This does not reflect my experiences, however.

I wonder, though, if it might not be something about the way you are reacting to the situations. If someone makes an advance to you, and you don't like it, do you turn negative? I'd say something like, "Gee, I'm glad you find me attractive, but I'm sorry, I'm not interested." If they persist, I walk away or ignore them. That might generate a comment or two (especially if the person is drunk), but that is there problem not mine. Is this how you react?

Scott


Scott
 
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7x6andchg:
Quotes:
Javierdude: And again, I am not at all saying that every gay person is like this, or whatever. I'm saying there is a large population within the gay community that does not have any moral values, respect for other people or tact.

pghcyclist:
I'm sorry you feel that way. I strongly disagree. I strongly suspect that because you have encountered some people like that, you are assuming that it is a dominant (large) portion of gay people. This does not reflect my experiences, however.

I wonder, though, if it might not be something about the way you are reacting to the situations. If someone makes an advance to you, and you don't like it, do you turn negative? I'd say something like, "Gee, I'm glad you find me attractive, but I'm sorry, I'm not interested." If they persist, I walk away or ignore them. That might generate a comment or two (especially if the person is drunk), but that is there problem not mine. Is this how you react?

I've got to go with Scott on this - I hardly think that a large percentage of the gay population fits that description. The lack of moral values, respect, and tact is by no means a gay trait. It, sadly, seems all too prevalent in culture as a WHOLE lately.

Oh, and throb919 - Thanks. I like to think of myself as hip... :D

7x6&C
 
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Javierdude22:
Percentages of population change depending on how the question is asked.  What you are writing here is based upon your own observations and is not a universal truism.

Hardly a falsification. Yes, they are my observations but since observation is the only thing I can use to assess a certain situation, and telepathy to dig out the true meaning behind the remark is not within my power, makes it seem obvious to use my own observations. And I have no idea how to ask the question differently.

I'm sorry you feel that way.  I strongly disagree. I strongly suspect that because you have encountered some people like that, you are assuming that it is a dominant (large) portion of gay people.  This does not reflect my experiences, however.

Well, a large portion definately. And unfortunately they do reflect my experiences. Weird. Maybe you do not get offended when your crotch is grabbed in public, or when a guy offers you to blow you when your standing at a bus stop with 5 others. Is that it= Do I get offended too soon= Cause then, logically, the numbers are skewed.

I wonder, though, if it might not be something about the way you are reacting to the situations.  If someone makes an advance to you, and you don't like it, do you turn negative?  I'd say something like, "Gee, I'm glad you find me attractive, but I'm sorry, I'm not interested."  If they persist, I walk away or ignore them.  That might generate a comment or two (especially if the person is drunk), but that is there problem not mine.  Is this how you react?
^

I react to them in accordance with the situation. If someone tells me that Im cute, I smile and say thank you. If someone tells me I have  great butt I frown and ignore the remark. When someone asks me how big my dick is, I walk away. But when that dude offered me a blowjob, I threatened him  :-[, sorry. But in my book, you dont do that. That is how I react.
 
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ORCABOMBER: I've never been chatted up by a guy y'know. Not as if I'd say yes, but it's the principle of the whole thing! :D
 
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Rayolin:
than I still do not have an explanation as to why so many gay men act 'average', so to speak, around a mixture of str8, bi, or gay men (a.k.a. society), and start flaming when they are in a purely gay surrounding.

Do you by chance have an explanation as to why so many straight men act 'average', so to speak, when around a mixture of str8, bi, or gay men (a.k.a. society) and start acting like testosterone driven 'I can bench press my car' fools in a purely female surrounding?


Perhaps the answer is as simple as the basic human instinct to find a mate and procreate? Straights act 'macho' around females in the hope that they will attract a suitable mate. Gays will 'flame' in the hopes of attracting a suitable mate. Although, here we can get into the 'why would you choose a mate you can't procreate with?' discussion and play ball with genetics... but im not going to get into that because its a bitch of an argument and im not sure where i stand on it.

but since observation is the only thing I can use to assess a certain situation

ahhhh a true Aristatlean philosopher... it can be argued that these types of observations are the precisely the kind that you would throw away first if you were to logically assess the situation.
 

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[quote author=Rayolin link=board=relationships;num=1066926393;start=20#31 date=10/28/03 at 22:32:08]
Gays will 'flame' in the hopes of attracting a suitable mate.[/quote]

Uh ... no. The majority of gay men are not looking for flamers as sexual partners. Look, we're gay; we're attracted to men. There are few gay men who are seeking out caricatures of feminine behaviour, and the flamers know that. Flirting that occurs while queens are camping it up is not likely to be taken seriously, and the flamers know that as well. Flaming is a social behavior, but not one generally connected with gay courtship rituals. I know many queens who camp it up and flame like bonfires. I get along with them fine, but I do not find their flamboyant antics to be desirable in a sexual partner. Their 'campouts' are often amusing, but for a sexual partner, I want a masculine man. Not He-Man or an American Gladiator, but one that looks and acts like a male rather than a neuter or androgynous being trying to imitate a woman. Most gay men I know feel the same way ... including the flamers.
 
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Rayolin: I wasn't offering the explanation for all gays or even the gays that do flame; was just proposing a possible reason. Anyway, the most likely explanation as to why they act differently would be that they are more comfortable with a gay majority crowd. So they feel free to act flamboyant. Kind of like you've just met your friends "other friends"... you arent going to feel comfortable enough to rip one but if it was the guys you normally hang out with you'd be perfectly fine lettin one loose and watchin em run for the lysol. Who isnt more comfortable with a crowd that they know or who's interests are the same? Make sense? yes/no?
 
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pghcyclist:
Hardly a falsification. Yes, they are my observations but since observation is the only thing I can use to assess a certain situation, and telepathy to dig out the true meaning behind the remark is not within my power, makes it seem obvious to use my own observations. And I have no idea how to ask the question differently.

Actually, you yourself said that of the 10 gay people you work with, you have problems with 1. 10%. That is neither large nor a majority. You also admit that it is not because he is gay, but because he is a jerk that you have a problem with him.

Your powers of observations are clouded by the stereotypes you want to see. This is your problem, not the gay community's problem.
 
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Javierdude22: That is questioning my intelligence.

We touched upon my colleagues, of whom I have a problem with 1, but also of my experiences with gay men outside of my workplace, why not include that as well while we're at it.

The numbers would be higher than 10% then.
 
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pghcyclist:
That is questioning my intelligence.

No, it is questioning your objectivity. I might also question your tolerance, since you respond to a sexual overture with a threat of violence.

We touched upon my colleagues, of whom I have a problem with 1, but also of my experiences with gay men outside of my workplace, why not include that as well while we're at it.

So, your workplace is acharacteristic of the world in general? In the real world, you can positively identify every single gay man so that you can get an accurate count? I suspect the answer to both these questions is 'No'.

The numbers would be higher than 10% then.

Sorry, that doesn't follow. What does follow is that you have a prejudice for seeing effeminate gay men and deciding they are somehow the majority. Again, this is your problem, not the gay community's problem.

Scott