Where's all the liberal defense of illegal immigration

B_VinylBoy

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Have you read the law?

Janet Napolitano and Eric Holder did not and were criticizing it.

Your point?
Just because some people who may share some of my political views may find problem with the law or not doesn't mean I'm not entitled to my thoughts or beliefs. I can see where the new Arizona law can be abused, if not only because I've been the object of such discriminative actions by authorities in other states.

Alas, because you felt two politicians didn't read it and criticized the bill, you think everyone who does it must follow the same pattern. I must commend you on your vehement attempts to pigeonhole everything into an overly simplistic us vs. them scenario. Some things never change. :rolleyes:
 

midlifebear

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Because this thread was started by one of LPSG's most famous trolls, I wasn't going to feed it. But some intelligent folks have posted some well-considered opinions and suggestions regarding "illegal" aliens who cross the southern border into the USA to find work. So, I'm adding my observations and humble opinion for them.

One thing I wish everyone was forced to do when visiting San Diego is be put on the down town San Diego trolley to San Ysidro and made to walk across the International Border into Mexico as a "field trip." And not just into the new-ish pink stucco restaurant/bar business district the city fathers of Tijuana built between the border and old International Bridge that leads to the entrance of Avenida Revolución, but to the historical tourist trap center of Tijuana where teenagers from California go to drink themselves into comas and seniors go to buy prescription drugs at a third or even less the cost as they would pay in the USA. Everyone in the USA should be marched over the International Border to where a sign arched over the street used to shout, "Welcome to the most visited city in the world!" Sadly, the old sign is gone. Since 9/11 Tijuana is no longer the most visited city in the world. But that walk from the US side squeaky revolving gate into TJ is still quite an eye-opener.

Even though the city has recently (last two or three years) turned Avenida Revolución into a pink cement walking mall with lots of benches for sitting and just about as many police as tourists, the shopping galleries and streets immediately east and west of Revolución are the same. Still, every night both the Mexico and USA border patrols are out in full force trying to catch people who are mostly from Central America (Mexico is part of North America) trying to squeeze, jump over, crawl under the razor fences right next to the USA's Border Immigration Control Center. In fact the fences are doubled and tripled in many places --- and well lighted at night. If they don't make it and get caught, they are usually released back in Tijuana with enough time to try a second attempt later in the morning before the sun comes up. It's a tragic situation. However, eventually those illegal immigrants will make it across --- eventually.

With the possible exception of those posters to this thread who have lived in San Diego or even closer to the border, 99% of you would probably be surprised to discover that along the southern estuary where the Tiijuana River empties into the Pacific Ocean are some of the most beautiful horse ranches one could wish for -- on the USA side. No fence. I'm also certain that the rest of the posters would go up in flames to discover that the language spoken by the majority of US citizens -- real, legal, 'Mericuhn born US citizens -- is Spanish; or at least a "Frontera" dialect of the language. These same US citizens also speak perfect English. If you walk into a VONs supermarket the white, middle-aged. blonde cashier with the dark roots and tired feet will ring up the purchases and make change speaking perfect Spanish with the suspicious-looking "Mexican" family in front of you and when it's your turn -- if you're white -- she'll ring up your purchases and speak to you in English with a typical flat southern California accent. Just imagine! The border cities along the USA (both sides) are bi-lingual! Someone call the cops. Everyone isn't speaking the imaginary "official" language of the United States of 'Mericuh 100% of the time!

Granted, something needed to be done a long time ago regarding illegal immigrants flooding the southern border of the USA. But despite all of the jingoistic ranting and raving, nothing done (especially by Republican administrations) has ever been enforced. During the "golden" Reagan years, Congress and Senate passed a short-lived bill that threatened anyone caught hiring illegals with major prosecution in the courts and heavy fines. Suddenly there was a boom business in the black market providing illegals with real, authentic-looking and feeling counterfeit Social Security Cards and US Passports. Those US businesses and farmers who were caught hiring illegals simply had to show the photocopies of the fake SS ID cards and Passports. They had a legitimate gripe: how where those businessmen and farmers able to verify authentic-looking and feeling counterfeit ID? Almost no one was prosecuted by the State Department because those holy government documents were simply too cheap and easy to duplicate. Even now, the "new" passport issued by the USA isn't much to write home about. I had to renew mine last year and despite all the wonderful colored water-marked pages, it could be (and is being) counterfeited. I was told my new passport contains "a traceable chip." I doubt it. It does have a bar code, but that's easily counterfeited. Currently, if you have access to someone's social security number you can look up and copy their ID bar code from the Internet. Even better if the social security number is purloined from someone recently making their first appearance in the obituary column of a local paper, their bar code is even more valuable -- and easy to replicate.

Still, the better solution to the problem that seems to have everyone's panties in such a twist is to go after the employers. For example, immigration should regularly check with the date farmers around Twenty Nine Palms -- and recheck -- that their date pickers have guest worker permits that are authentic. For those who are unaware, guest worker permits are actually available. Unfortunately, there are enough flaws in the current guest worker system that those who apply and get the permits are often exploited by lower wages and longer work days than their "illegal" counterparts. Yet another problem that needs to be fixed on "our" side of the border. I don't see any farmers or business owners yelling and screaming for better accountability of "their" responsibility to ensure they only hire legal immigrants or guest workers with "real" work permits. Which leads me to another good idea for a "forced" field trip: visit the offices and watch the officials who issue USA guest worker permits.

Just stopping people in the event they create "a reasonable cause for police a police encounter" isn't going to put a dent in the current situation. There are thousands of people from former Soviet countries, Europe, Scandinavia, Africa, ALL Middle Eastern Countries, Indonesia, (and Canada) who have overstayed their legitimate student or tourist visas by more than one or two years that the migration folks haven't bothered to ferret out. It's doubtful those "illegals" from other countries will be discovered by driving in Scottsdale with a broken tail light any time soon.

Summary: 1. We need to clean up our own act by creating and enforcing laws that put the pressure on those businesses (and farmers) in the USA NOT to hire illegal immigrants or people without guest worker permits; 2. the current guest worker program needs a major redesign that includes clauses for enforcing humanity and justice for the workers. Fences are so Cold War.

Oh, and be sure to have a nice day. :smile: Tenga un día agradable. :sombrero:
 
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Thedrewbert

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Nope. If you break the law, you are asked to present proof of citizenship.

Which law? Any law? If a cop feels that I'm loitering, do I have to prove citizenship? What if I'm stopped for doing 46 in a 45 but only have my driver's license with me and not a passport or long form birth certificate.... or does that only matter if I'm brown? What if I'm found not guilty of speeding by the judge? Means I didn't break the law and no proof of citizenship is required..... or do we just presume guilt now?

the key word there being AMERICAN. See, you don't need to carry a passport around in your own country.

What of people who are American of Mexican decent and speak with a heavy accent? Do they need to carry a passport?

Yep. And you've never had a problem because you are a citizen.

My point is, how do we establish that I am a citizen without violating my rights as a citizen.... or do we just assume?
 

HazelGod

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Which law? Any law? If a cop feels that I'm loitering, do I have to prove citizenship? What if I'm stopped for doing 46 in a 45 but only have my driver's license with me and not a passport or long form birth certificate.... or does that only matter if I'm brown? What if I'm found not guilty of speeding by the judge? Means I didn't break the law and no proof of citizenship is required..... or do we just presume guilt now?
If you had bothered to read the statute before you started clucking about the sky falling, you'd understand how stupid your hypothetical scenarios sound.
 

Thedrewbert

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If you had bothered to read the statute before you started clucking about the sky falling, you'd understand how stupid your hypothetical scenarios sound.

Really? What's this mean then?

Most police agencies or jails here already check the immigration status of people charged with a crime, in consultation with Immigration and Customs Enforcement, but the new law would expand that power and allows the police to stop people on the suspicion of being in the country without documents.

What is that suspicion based on?
 

HazelGod

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Really? What's this mean then?
Most police agencies or jails here already check the immigration status of people charged with a crime, in consultation with Immigration and Customs Enforcement, but the new law would expand that power and allows the police to stop people on the suspicion of being in the country without documents.

What is that suspicion based on?
It means any idiot can get themselves quoted in the press without regard for their accuracy. :rolleyes:

If you had actually read the law instead of just reading someone else's interpretation of it, you'd already understand this.
 

maxcok

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My father was a relatively well-known figure in the San Diego political scene...we had a Mexican maid when I was growing up. The minute he found out she didn't have a green card, no papers? Fired her. Would have been a scandal had it gotten out.
Not to pick on your father, but as an example, why did he not ask for documentation when he hired her?
Would he have fired her if not for the potential political scandal?

I knew lots of wealthy/powerful people who were more than happy to employ illegals - until it had the potential of causing them social embarassment or legal problems.
 
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B_spiker067

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illegal immigrants pay taxes.

There are an estimated 10-20 million illegals, so say 15 million. The children of these number approximately 5 million and at minimum cost $7000 to educate. That is $35 Billion to $50 Billion a year to educate. And yet 50% do no graduate from H.S. These kids do NOT represent a technologically powered future. Their parents by and large do no even begin to pay for their kid's education (when paying taxes) let alone all the other expenses associated with illegals.

When Obama finally legalizes them they will be in line for obamacare, SS, and Medicare. The vast majority of them will take more than they will ever pay into the system.

Our own nationals will lose out to illegals. They take jobs from constructions workers as was evidenced in New Orleans when black union electricians lost out to illegals and had to go to D.C. to get their jobs back. Who will give an ex-con a second chance when they can hire an illegal? I won't. I speak spanish not ex-con.

Illegal immigration is firstly a financial boondogle. Secondly, it represents a loss of sovereignty and sets up a separatist movement. Thirdly, is creates racial strife, it does not alleviate it.
 
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B_VinylBoy

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There are an estimated 10-20 million illegals, so say 15 million. The children of these number approximately 5 million and at minimum cost $7000 to educate. That is $35 Billion to $50 Billion a year to educate. And yet 50% do no graduate from H.S. These kids do NOT represent a technologically powered future. Their parents by and large do no even begin to pay for their kid's education let alone all the other expenses associated with illegals.

What a way to judge people based on...
Actually, what are you trying to get at with this fuzzy math? :rolleyes:

When Obama finally legalizes them they will be in line for obamacare, SS, and Medicare. The vast majority of them will take more than they will ever pay into the system.

Yawn. :rolleyes:

Our own nationals will lose out to illegals. They take jobs from constructions workers as was evidenced in New Orleans when black union electricians lost out to illegals and had to go to D.C. to get their jobs back.

Wow... you do have major gall, don't ya?
Neither the black man or the illegal alien are at fault here. Both of them simply want a job to take care of their families. You blame the employers for doing the wrong thing. They're the ones engaging in shady practices by trying to hire cheap help to reduce their bottom line.

Illegal immigration is firstly a financial boondogle. Secondly it represents a loss of sovereignty and setting up a separatist movement. Thirdly is creates racial strife it does not alleviate it.

The only one trying to cause racial strife right now is you. This entire post of yours is a prime example of that. Oooooooh, those Mexicans are public enemy number one. But wait... wasn't it Al Qaeda a few weeks ago? If you want a solution to this problem, MLB hit it on the nail. This blather of yours doesn't even make it to the starting line.
 

B_spiker067

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What a way to judge people based on...
Actually, what are you trying to get at with this fuzzy math? :rolleyes:



Yawn. :rolleyes:



Wow... you do have major gall, don't ya?
Neither the black man or the illegal alien are at fault here. Both of them simply want a job to take care of their families. You blame the employers for doing the wrong thing. They're the ones engaging in shady practices by trying to hire cheap help to reduce their bottom line.



The only one trying to cause racial strife right now is you. This entire post of yours is a prime example of that. Oooooooh, those Mexicans are public enemy number one. But wait... wasn't it Al Qaeda a few weeks ago? If you want a solution to this problem, MLB hit it on the nail. This blather of yours doesn't even make it to the starting line.

As usual you had not one single substantial point of rebuttal.
 

B_VinylBoy

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As usual you had not one single substantial point of rebuttal.

Provide one point that isn't so blindly exaggerated or hypocritically sectarian first, and perhaps a debate may commence. Or are you going to post more fear-mongered propaganda in hopes to change the name of "public enemy number one" from Al-Qaeda to El Fuerte? :rolleyes:
 

MrToolhung

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You need this form, this form, and this new form that just came out. Oh? You're from here? You need this form. Don't fill out this one. Or that one. Send it to this distribution center nearest your address except, no, they don't do that form; you have to send it here. No, there. No, THERE, like I told you the first time.

That is the truth! I can relate to your story.

Just to add to that it is even better when you are at a port of entry and told to sit your ass down. Then they continue to tell you that you are not permitted to ask any questions and if you dare to you will be immediately detained for causing a disturbance. And all that for trying to obtain a student visa! And the cardinal sin was not having all the proper documentation in the first place because no one would provide you with the right information.
 

B_spiker067

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Provide one point that isn't so blindly exaggerated or hypocritically sectarian first, and perhaps a debate may commence. Or are you going to post more fear-mongered propaganda in hopes to change the name of "public enemy number one" from Al-Qaeda to El Fuerte? :rolleyes:

A mi me pareces que no tienes nada que decir sobre el asunto y asi solo hablas tonteras.
 

B_VinylBoy

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A mi me pareces que no tienes nada que decir sobre el asunto y asi solo hablas tonteras.

Next time, when you want to tell someone that they don't have anything to say try to do it in a language that is more difficult to translate. Trying to cleverly hide a lame comment in Spanish in hopes that someone doesn't understand what is being said, knowing that Spanish is the second most popular and learned language in the United States, shows just how cowardly you are to meet me head on after spewing your fear mongered rhetoric.

また、そう人種差別主義者何でもより少なく期待するなぜべきである私であるか。
And a goony-goo goo to you too. :rolleyes:
 

FRE

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There are an estimated 10-20 million illegals, so say 15 million. The children of these number approximately 5 million and at minimum cost $7000 to educate. That is $35 Billion to $50 Billion a year to educate. And yet 50% do no graduate from H.S. These kids do NOT represent a technologically powered future. Their parents by and large do no even begin to pay for their kid's education (when paying taxes) let alone all the other expenses associated with illegals.

When Obama finally legalizes them they will be in line for obamacare, SS, and Medicare. The vast majority of them will take more than they will ever pay into the system.

Our own nationals will lose out to illegals. They take jobs from constructions workers as was evidenced in New Orleans when black union electricians lost out to illegals and had to go to D.C. to get their jobs back. Who will give an ex-con a second chance when they can hire an illegal? I won't. I speak spanish not ex-con.

Illegal immigration is firstly a financial boondogle. Secondly, it represents a loss of sovereignty and sets up a separatist movement. Thirdly, is creates racial strife, it does not alleviate it.

Here in New Mexico, the high school graduation rate is the second lowest in the country. It is mostly American citizens who are not graduating.

If U.S. companies were not hiring illegal immigrants, there would be fewer of them here. One of the problems is that there is too little effort to motivate employers to avoid hiring illegal immigrants and too little effort to enable employers to determine citizenship.
 

maxcok

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. . . One of the problems is that there is too little effort to motivate employers to avoid hiring illegal immigrants and too little effort to enable employers to determine citizenship.
Exactly! Which takes me back to:
. . . It's a dirty little secret that many of the folks who give lip service to cracking down on illegal immigration, benefit from employing workers illegally at lower wages - while avoiding deductions, employee contributions and those pesky laws governing employment practices. Like so many things, when it comes right down to it, it's plain old greed and the desire to maximize profits. . . .

Despite all the posturing, the truth is that Mexican nationals, the Mexican government, individual Americans, and especially American business all benefit from the status quo.