Who do you think is to blame when men stray?

[D_Della Doubledees]

well, what would you categorize as morally wrong?

If a relationship is laid out as monogamous, you know it. You've talked about it. Going against that.... is disrespecting a committed agreement where another person has invested just as much time and emotional trust in it... as you have.

I think it's okay to have relationships that are open an honest. If those relationships involve multiple partners... so be it. That's not 'immoral', IMO, because both parties still have the same amount of emotional risk invested. The original question was centered around men who stray in a monogamous relationship.

To me, it's pretty black and white. Be who you say you are. I don't think it's fair that a woman who is being faithful isn't given a choice to leave him before her man decides to go bone some other chick. Everyone should have the right to decide whether that behavior is acceptable to them, and clearly, for some... it is not.

 

[bearsnotcubs]

If a relationship is laid out as monogamous, you know it. You've talked about it. Going against that.... is disrespecting a committed agreement where another person has invested just as much time and emotional trust in it... as you have.

I think it's okay to have relationships that are open an honest. If those relationships involve multiple partners... so be it. That's not 'immoral', IMO, because both parties still have the same amount of emotional risk invested. The original question was centered around men who stray in a monogamous relationship.

To me, it's pretty black and white. Be who you say you are. I don't think it's fair that a woman who is being faithful isn't given a choice to leave him before her man decides to go bone some other chick. Everyone should have the right to decide whether that behavior is acceptable to them, and clearly, for some... it is not.

Fair enough.

 

[timincm]

In terms of why can't people be free to love other people, what works for you may not work for others. You describe a very open arrangement with your lover. I know for a fact that such an arrangement would not work for the majority of people. Why? Because people are selfish and people get jealous and despite wanting to stray at times, they seldom want to share themselves. You alluded to this yourself when you said



Look, don't misunderstand, I'm not advocating an open relationship for everyone. People are different and have different needs in terms of their relationships. I am simply saying that people should be real with each other in terms of what they need and establish relationships based on those needs. And, I am saying that changes in relationships are inevitable. People change. It's what we do. It would be great, (maybe,) if people stayed the same for all of their lives but they don't and so it follows that relationships between people must be fluid in order to work. Is love the most important component in a relationship between mates or is fidelity more important? I was married years ago. I love my wife -- still, to this day. She loves me -- still, to this day. We are not married anymore (and I feel compelled to add here that infidelity had nothing whatsoever to do with the breakup.) We changed as people and, as a result of the changes, found that in order to preserve our love for each other, we needed to be apart, so we divorced. If she had come to me when we were married and said, "Tim, I love you but I need to be with some other men for a while." My response, I hope, I trust, would have been, "I love you too and I support your need to do this because I love you but this if your thing and I don't need to know about it."

I think a lot of the times the need for sex outside of marriage has absolutely nothing to do with the relationship between the people involved in the marriage. To end a love match over that seems to me like throwing the baby out with the bath-water. If it does have to do with the marriage, I think probably that the people involved are either missmatched or they are not mature enough to be honest with each other and perhaps should look into divorcing.

 

[Enid]

Those are great, great questions. I don't really think about Mormon polygamists actually. Whatever floats the boat, as it were. That type of situation is not one I would find appealing personally however.

I just meant that while marriage is definitely something invented by humans, monogamy isn't necessarily (not strictly speaking). Our views on monogamy though...it being a moral issue, all of that -- that is a construct. Definitely.

"my point is that most people view 'cheating' as wrong due solely to the fact that it's what's been pounded into their head by religion, teachers, parents, society on a whole since day one."

I agree with you. I personally though don't find cheating distasteful for any of those reasons -- I find it distasteful because it goes against my nature and does not feel right to me. I cannot get intimate (something I have a super hard time with honestly) with someone when there's not a solid foundation of monogamy. Just won't open up, be able to let go, that kinda thing. But that's in my personality and has less to do with religion (not religious at all) or the other reasons you mentioned.

This is a great thread! Lots of thought provoking questions.

 

[atomicTIGER]

Its ALWAYS the womens fault. They are decieptive, and natural born liers. All of them! No exceptions at all.

 

[Supersized]

guys marry a woman whom he is not sexually compatible with and has an affair with a woman who is his wife's sexual opposite. IT is called the Madonna Prostitute syndrome.

 

[killerb]

I believe that the cheater is the one to bear blame...if there is something lacking in the relationship that leads the cheater to look elsewhere, then it is up to the cheater to make it known before they actually cheat - perhaps adjustments can be made that will improve things before infidelity occurs...

In any case, nothing gives a person the right to cheat...if monogamy is not for you, don't pretend it is. Be honest about it from the outset.

Regarding this author & that book, I see it as a bunch of BS...I do not need my ego stroked in order to stay faithful...and I'm one who believes that I am the one that has control over who I sleep with...what does it make me if I decide to screw outside my relationship and then cast blame on the one I supposedly love?

 

[ManlyBanisters]

Its ALWAYS the womens fault. They are decieptive, and natural born liers. All of them! No exceptions at all.

Ah, true to form - but tell me tiger, tiger burning bright, sometimes funny, seldom right :tongue: - how has a woman lying got anything to do with whether the man cheats on her or not? Or do you mean it is the fault of the other woman, the third party?

 

[Runco]

well, this was just in response to your asking if i believed all men were hardwired to want to spread their seed.

I believe it does. Nazi Germany couldn't convince every german to be a Nazi, but it did a good job convincing a lot of people. I view society telling us monogamy is right and cheating is wrong in much the same light. I don't think there's a growing trend of monogamous men and a decline in monogamous women, but rather a decline in monogamy on a whole, which is just fine by me. If you could link me to a study or article saying as much though, that'd be interesting.

I didn't mean human women. I meant females in most species. The strongest lion comes out on top and takes the pride for himself. Of course humans are different, which is why there's the physiological urge to be with more than one person, but there are also social and psychological reasons for the desire to be polyamorous or polygamous as well.

Here is an article that explains why humans are monogamous. It is nothing to do with brainwashing and everything to do with ensuring the survival of the species. It also supports the notion that women - females - are less likely to be monogamous than men (see facts about Arctic Foxes - the same behaviour is echoed by humans...). This is also supported by the fact that something like 1 in 5 children are being raised by men who are unaware that they are not the child's biological father...

 

[bearsnotcubs]

Its ALWAYS the womens fault. They are decieptive, and natural born liers. All of them! No exceptions at all.

i'm convinced it's men like you that give us bad reps.

 

[timincm]

"but tell me tiger, tiger burning bright, sometimes funny, seldom right"

This is horribly off topic but I just heard William Blake turn over in his grave and groan.

 

[atomicTIGER]

i'm convinced it's men like you that give us bad reps.

Nope not true. Its once again me having the courage to tell the truth. Its what eveyone else is thinking but are to much cowards to say. We have all these people running around out there with no courage. Thats why this world is going down the tubes.

 

[bearsnotcubs]

Here is an article that explains why humans are monogamous. It is nothing to do with brainwashing and everything to do with ensuring the survival of the species. It also supports the notion that women - females - are less likely to be monogamous than men (see facts about Arctic Foxes - the same behaviour is echoed by humans...). This is also supported by the fact that something like 1 in 5 children are being raised by men who are unaware that they are not the child's biological father...

The behavior of an Arctic Fox is not echoed by human beings. I disagree with that. As far as monogamy ensuring the survival of the species and that being why humans do it, I also disagree with that. We're not animals in the wild who have to fend off attacks from predators or rely on each other to hunt and gather, so that argument is thrown out the window imo. Albeit an interesting article, I read nothing that supports why human beings attempt monogamy. As a matter of fact, it even supports my aforementioned statements in the title itself; Humans are not made monogamous.

 

[bearsnotcubs]

Nope not true. Its once again me having the courage to tell the truth. Its what eveyone else is thinking but are to much cowards to say. We have all these people running around out there with no courage. Thats why this world is going down the tubes.

do me a favor. if your parents are still alive, ask your father if he feels comfortable sharing whether or not he still has sex with your mother.

if not, then your mother's a cheating, lying deceitful person, according to you.

amirite?

 

[bearsnotcubs]

from that linked article, "...it is clear that males have less to lose than females by having extramarital sex. Women, on the other hand, would lose resources, and female promiscuity clearly does not boost the welfare of her children."

i think that's a pretty good quote

 

[timincm]

an article that explains why humans are monogamous. It is nothing to do with brainwashing and everything to do with ensuring the survival of the species. It also supports the notion that women - females - are less likely to be monogamous than men (see facts about Arctic Foxes - the same behaviour is echoed by humans...). This is also supported by the fact that something like 1 in 5 children are being raised by men who are unaware that they are not the child's biological father...

You know Runco, I know I am playing devil's advocate a bit here but don't believe everything you read. I could site many articles which explain why humans are designed for four year pair-bondings.

 

[atomicTIGER]

an article that explains why humans are monogamous. It is nothing to do with brainwashing and everything to do with ensuring the survival of the species. It also supports the notion that women - females - are less likely to be monogamous than men (see facts about Arctic Foxes - the same behaviour is echoed by humans...). This is also supported by the fact that something like 1 in 5 children are being raised by men who are unaware that they are not the child's biological father...

You know Runco, I know I am playing devil's advocate a bit here but don't believe everything you read. I could site many articles which explain why humans are designed for four year pair-bondings.

Very true! Females are much more likely to be the one cheating! Many times they cheat and are never caught! I heard it is actually very very rare if ever a woman is not cheating on the side at some point. And the men have to raise kids that are not even theirs at all.

 

[Runco]

The behavior of an Arctic Fox is not echoed by human beings. I disagree with that. As far as monogamy ensuring the survival of the species and that being why humans do it, I also disagree with that. We're not animals in the wild who have to fend off attacks from predators or rely on each other to hunt and gather, so that argument is thrown out the window imo. Albeit an interesting article, I read nothing that supports why human beings attempt monogamy. As a matter of fact, it even supports my aforementioned statements in the title itself; Humans are not made monogamous.

Of course we echo behaviors of some animals. This is why women give birth to the children of other men and pass them off as the offspring of their 'monogamous' partner all the time. This is animal behavior practiced by Arctic Foxes (amongst others). I realise this is not the wild (I note you are happy to use animal references and liken human behaviour to that of animals when it suits you though!). However, children raised by TWO parents within a monogamous setting are more likely to survive to adulthood and become strong, well adjusted and capable adults than children raised by one parent who is struggling to survive and provide for them. This is a proven fact and is why the monogamous model evolved. And are you sure you are not guilty of selective retention of information? You are certainly guilty of selective quotation. The article says a whole lot more than 'Humans are not made monogamous' and you know it.

 

[ManlyBanisters]

do me a favor. if your parents are still alive, ask your father if he feels comfortable sharing whether or not he still has sex with your mother.

if not, then your mother's a cheating, lying deceitful person, according to you.

amirite?

Don't bother, bear - the guy trolls in this manner. He's harmless though and occassionally makes me laugh out loud. I think it is a kind of post-modern parody character.

Very true! Females are much more likely to be the one cheating! Many times they cheat and are never caught! I heard it is actually very very rare if ever a woman is not cheating on the side at some point. And the men have to raise kids that are not even theirs at all.

See?

 

[bearsnotcubs]

Of course we echo behaviors of some animals. This is why women give birth to the children of other men and pass them off as the offspring of their 'monogamous' partner all the time. This is animal behavior practiced by Arctic Foxes (amongst others). I realise this is not the wild (I note you are happy to use animal references and liken human behaviour to that of animals when it suits you though!). However, children raised by TWO parents within a monogamous setting are more likely to survive to adulthood and become strong, well adjusted and capable adults than children raised by one parent who is struggling to survive and provide for them. This is a proven fact and is why the monogamous model evolved. And are you sure you are not guilty of selective retention of information? You are certainly guilty of selective quotation. The article says a whole lot more than 'Humans are not made monogamous' and you know it.

"For example, in the case of the Arctic foxes, 25 % of the litters are not fathered by the male of the pair. Having offspring from multiple fathers allows a female to increase the genetic variation in her cubs. This increase in variation improves the chances that at least one cub in a litter will have the genetically proper stuff to survive for a long term in such a harsh and changing environment."

I'm sorry, I don't think human behavior echoes that in the least bit. As far as monogamy helping a child reach adulthood and become strong, that's also a fallacy in my opinion. Consider the hypothetical situation of a monogamous couple who stays together solely for the children, yet serve a a rotten core to an apple. That's not going to help the kids one bit to have two parents that hate each other but stick together for the kids. Monogamous parenting doesn't equate into successful, nurturing parenting. I'm sorry, it just doesn't.

The human committed partnership between a man and a woman evolved for raising the children. Monogamy is invented for order and investment, not necessarily because it's natural, warn many researchers, which point that both social and sexual monogamy in humans is not a natural state. In fact, most primitive human societies and many evolved societies have been practicing the harem system. Researchers believe that monogamy only became established as hunter-gatherer societies took up agriculture and settled in houses, allowing the social roles of men and women to become more fixed.

Again, we're way past that point in human evolution, monogamy no longer has any real bearing on the survival of our offspring/species.