Who does Canada think it is?

[facedowndeep]

phe:

Dont critize my health care system.. its not yours to critize.

If Americans are unwilling to accept criticism from other countries, you will be severely handicapped in improving the nation. Besides which, American health care will be criticized, whether or not you choose to cover your ears. It's probably best to listen for some good ideas.

Massive:

In short, the crime didn't happen in Canada, it isn't a Canadian crime-period.

Well, no. Once the accused is on Canadian soil, Canada has a responsibility to ensure he will receive what we consider a proper judicial process in his home country. We do not consider the death penalty to fit the criteria.

It may help you to consider the case of refugees. For example, suppose a Chinese citizen posted information about Chinese Communist Party corruption, and then fled to New York. He committed a crime in China, what is known there as "revealing state secrets". Does the US have a duty to send him back to China for his execution?

What about an Iranian woman who has pre-marital sex and escapes to America before the authorities can detain her? Should she be deported back to Iran for her 50 lashes?

What if the country of origin practices "cruel and unusual punishment" - barred by the American constitution? Would you send a Saudi thief back to have his hand cut off?

The point is, when the country of origin imposes inhumane punishment, the country holding the prisoner has a moral and legal obligation to prevent said punishment.

 

[D_Gunther Snotpole]

Not really news to me, though highly qualified by what facedowndeep says below.
But the interesting thing is that Jason is the first American to point this out. So once again, our American friends seem not to understand the American system of government. (Except Jason, of course.)

I would respectfully disagree with this statement. While his discription is wordy, he is correct given the entire "states rights" dialogue currently underway.

Phe, this post was much better than any of your earlier ones. This is how you should sound on this board.
Now, the post is interesting, but it assumes that I don't already know a good deal of that.
Actually, my remark to Jason, which you quoted, was only an ironic reference to the fact that, judging one can only assume on the fact that no Canadians had mentioned the points he brought up, that no Canadians were aware of those points.
But this was equally plausibly said about the Americans who had posted, since Jason was the first in a long line of American posters on the thread to say anything about the differeing positions on the death penalty that exist from state to state.
That's all I meant, really.

I think what strikes many is the idea that those from other countries have the nerve to speak with such authority on the U.S and our policy. I recently drove from Ottawa to Montreal during a business trip and listened to CBC talk radio in total shock. The topic was U.S. related, of course. It was amazing to listen to those who called in to that talk show. Canada is one scary place. Its scary because, you dont know what you dont know.

Phe, this is true everywhere of everyone.
You probably would be amazed if you could really learn how little your own countrymen know about the U.S.
I am amazed at how little Canadians really know about Canada.
And most people know very little about other countries, though they may tend to know a little more about the most prominent and news-featured countries, of which the most visible and exposed is the USA.
Canada a scary place? Well, I think a lot of people would express a different view ... and, without wishing to give offence, I want to add that I'm pretty sure far more people find the United States scary, whether for good reason or bad, than find Canada scary.
If anything, Canada is considered bland and a bit boring.

I would also like to ad two other points to this debate. Most would think that the largest foreign holder of U.S. assets would be?? Japan, China or perhaps Saudia Arabia. Actually its Canada. Property, business, securities etc. Is meddling in our affairs really worth risking that relationship? I many people here have had it with Canadians, always critizing and never offering any soluition. Responses in this forum make me ashamed of my Canadian heritage.

It will not risk the relationship at all, because the American people 1) won't know that much about Canadian antagonism 2) Canada remains the best friend the U.S. has, and 3) the American people are large-hearted.

My other point is while most Canadians where a disgrace in this forum dont feel singled out on meddling. Theres a man currently in Mexico who cut a baby from a live mothers belly killing her and the child then proceeded to kill the rest of her family. Mexico will not return him to the U.S. for fear of the death pen. Maybe next time his kind will just come to Canada looking for work instead of the U.S.

It's an extreme case, phe, that doesn't tell us much about relations between our two fine countries.

And phe, seriously: You really have to learn to use the quote function.

 

[2322]

Nor are they bound by the laws of Canada.. they are actually citizens of both countries.. correct?

They're technically citizens of the United States with all the rights of citizens including running for president, voting, and carrying US passports though have only had this status since 1924.

I don't know if they're citizens of Canada as well when the territories overlap.

 

[D_Bozhidar_Boogerpicquer]

Great read! Scroll up to Canada's policy and let me know the difference.. its so frustrating to be held to a different standard

There hardly is one.

 

[2322]

I think this whole this is much like a family argument.

It's one thing for cousin Phil to complain about cousin Rubi and the entire clan to complain about Uncle Kali, but entirely another for someone outside the family to say exactly the same thing. No matter how valid the argument may be, it immediately causes everyone to close ranks and take the defensive.

I can, and have, debated long and loudly about how shitty our health care system is, the injustice of capital punishment, the general American naivete regarding other cultures and countries, and the vast odiousness of our elected officials.

Canadians, and in fairness nobody else, can say anything save that it is couched in the friendliest, most helpful, and diplomatic terms possible. This is why ambassadors and whole schools of diplomacy exist.

 

[D_Gunther Snotpole]

Yes, though we generally call it the National Guard. These forces are at the disposal of the governors of their respective states and used in times of disaster or extreme civil unrest. They're a holdover from the days when communication and travel was such that the country could be invaded and half conquered before anybody in Philadelphia (or New York or Washington) found out. The president can federalize national guard units at his discretion. National guard units may be deployed for combat duty abroad but they can also be used to enforce federal law. Eisenhower did this in Arkansas when the governor refused to desegregate the schools following a Supreme Court decision and used the state police to bar black students from entering white schools.

Of course, the National Guard. Now, that I know about; just didn't think of it, for some reason, when you mentioned military forces.
I'll have to respond to the rest of your post at another time.
I do believe the U.S. is a much more centralized federation than Canada, which is one of the looser ones around.
And provinces do have larger areas of jurisdiction.
But as to the details, I have to inform myself, not least because the exact disposition of powers in your country is hazy to me.

 

[kalipygian]

They're technically citizens of the United States with all the rights of citizens including running for president, voting, and carrying US passports though have only had this status since 1924.

I don't know if they're citizens of Canada as well when the territories

overlap.

There is no dual citizenship. The area of the Arctic Ocean border between Alaska and Canada is uninhabited, in any case. There is just one village, Kaktovik, between Prudhoe and the border.

No-one in Alaska could vote in a federal election until 1959, when it became a state. Alaska natives were generally prevented from voting at all before the fifties.

They do have some rights other citizen don't have, such as subsistence hunting of marine mammals, and free medical care.

 

[D_Gunther Snotpole]

Some of the states that had organized governments before the revolution use the term commonwealth, it is simply the English language equivalent of the Latin word republic, which later became more usual. They are states no different than any other state.

The term has a different meaning in the case of Puerto Rico, it means an internally self governing associated territory.

This was my impression. Tnx., Kal.

 

[B_phe1249]

Phe, this post was much better than any of your earlier ones. This is how you should sound on this board.
Now, the post is interesting, but it assumes that I don't already know a good deal of that.
Actually, my remark to Jason, which you quoted, was only an ironic reference to the fact that, judging one can only assume on the fact that no Canadians had mentioned the points he brought up, that no Canadians were aware of those points.
But this was equally plausibly said about the Americans who had posted, since Jason was the first in a long line of American posters on the thread to say anything about the differeing positions on the death penalty that exist from state to state.
That's all I meant, really

Interesting point. I am guilty of responding to only a few in the thread, my apologies

Phe, this is true everywhere of everyone.
You probably would be amazed if you could really learn how little your own countrymen know about the U.S.
I am amazed at how little Canadians really know about Canada.
And most people know very little about other countries, though they may tend to know a little more about the most prominent and news-featured countries, of which the most visible and exposed is the USA.
Canada a scary place? Well, I think a lot of people would express a different view ... and, without wishing to give offence, I want to add that I'm pretty sure far more people find the United States scary, whether for good reason or bad, than find Canada scary.
If anything, Canada is considered bland and a bit boring.

I pity those who find the U.S. to be scary. Because they have little understanding of the county or its culture. Im not offended at all by your observation. Ive never found Canada to be either bland or boring.

It will not risk the relationship at all, because the American people 1) won't know that much about Canadian antagonism 2) Canada remains the best friend the U.S. has, and 3) the American people are large-hearted.

Thats very kind of you. I would however question whether Canada is the best friend of the United States. Sadly if that question was directed to many Americans in a non-confrontaional manner I think you would be surprised at how many would agree me. The American people are large hearted but very tired of the cheap shots directed toward them from the rest of the world.

And phe, seriously: You really have to learn to use the quote function.

Im working on it... I promise.

 

[D_Gunther Snotpole]

I think this whole this is much like a family argument.

Ha ha.
Yes.
Exactly, Jason.

 

[B_Nick4444]

murder is murder.....whether its a random act of violence, or mandated by any government

execution is not murder ... that's the sort of confused and muddled thinking that permeates humanism and third and fourth rate nations

 

[D_Gunther Snotpole]

I pity those who find the U.S. to be scary. Because they have little understanding of the county or its culture. Im not offended at all by your observation. Ive never found Canada to be either bland or boring.
I would however question whether Canada is the best friend of the United States. Sadly if that question was directed to many Americans in a non-confrontaional manner I think you would be surprised at how many would agree me. The American people are large hearted but very tired of the cheap shots directed toward them from the rest of the world.

But it's so much of the rest of the world, a reality greatly exacerbated by the Bush administration, though I don't doubt that their motives have been good.
If not Canada, then who, phe? Who can be more plausibly proposed as your best international friends than the Canadians? The Brits? I don't think so, personally. And no one else comes to mind at all.

 

[B_becominghorse]

But it's so much of the rest of the world, a reality greatly exacerbated by the Bush administration, though I don't doubt that their motives have been good.

I've never heard anything so diplomatic, monsieur. It is well-known to almost all Americans that the Bush Administration's motives have not been good. they don't even pretend they have been good, why should anyone else? Bush's WMD jokes were proof positive he loved getting away with all those lies.

 

[D_Gunther Snotpole]

execution is not murder ... that's the sort of confused and muddled thinking that permeates humanism and third and fourth rate nations

Execution is not murder. Hmmm.
Nick, I don't say you can't make this plausible ... but I do ask you to do so.

 

[B_becominghorse]

Execution is not murder. Hmmm.
Nick, I don't say you can't make this plausible ... but I do ask you to do so.

Unbelievable patience on display. Saying it in such a declamatory way would lead one to imagine it could be made plausible--but I'll pass, since the 3rd and 4th rate nations that never use it, viz., European, are nothing if not first-rate. At this point, I am fine with people thinking such things. It is no longer of any importance to me that people believe false things. I'm sure I believe some too--like the Importance of Dick.

 

[B_phe1249]

But it's so much of the rest of the world, a reality greatly exacerbated by the Bush administration, though I don't doubt that their motives have been good.

You are incedibly wise. Of course their motives were well intended. The Bush adminisgtration did not seek out to gain a 51st state or oil. Gas today in my hometown is 4.45 per gallon. The role of the U.S. military in my life time has basically been humanitarian. U.S. and Canadian fought in flanders in WW1 and many came home vegtables, victims of nerve gas. The League of Nations vowed this would never be tolerated again. Iraq had a leader who used it on his own people and most in Canada, and other places critized my goverment for removing him.

If not Canada, then who, phe? Who can be more plausibly proposed as your best international friends than the Canadians? The Brits? I don't think so, personally. And no one else comes to mind at all.

I think the U.S. U.K relationship is much stronger than that of U.S. Canada. U.S. Aussie is stronger as well.
Many Canadians have a real opinion of Bush and what he has and has not done but your last P.M. really damaged our two nations long standing relations.

 

[D_Gunther Snotpole]

I've never heard anything so diplomatic, monsieur. It is well-known to almost all Americans that the Bush Administration's motives have not been good. they don't even pretend they have, why should anyone else?

Well, Bush himself thinks he's doing God's will.

And the other biggies in the administration seem to think they are dealing harsh medicine to a world that needs it, whether it realizes it or not ... or, in the more obviously selfish cases, are simply doing as they believe duty commands, privileging American interests above everything else (and hence the abrogation of treaties, the scorning of mulitlateral fora, etc. etc.).

The problem is that the conception of 'American interests' has been far too narrow.

The U.S. needs friends, needs cooperation, needs the respect of the larger world.

(And personally, I think they can get a great deal of that back quickly. The world has always seen the U.S. on two separate tracks ... on one, a very self-willed nation, no more virtuous than any other great power, but more powerful than any of history and hence more dangerous ... and on another, an idealistic nation that often loses its way, but capable of periodic re-illumination and never fully releasing its will, not entirely self-deceptive, to be a light to the world.)

 

[B_Nick4444]

Execution is not murder. Hmmm.
Nick, I don't say you can't make this plausible ... but I do ask you to do
so.

Execution is the result of an arduous process in pursuit of realizing what might be called the social contract, the agreements, the quid pro quo we live under

Murder, on the contrary, is the violation of those very same obligations and commitments we assume as citizens toward each other

 

[D_Gunther Snotpole]

I think the U.S. U.K relationship is much stronger than that of U.S. Canada. U.S. Aussie is stronger as well.
Many Canadians have a real opinion of Bush and what he has and has not done but your last P.M. really damaged our two nations long standing relations.

The U.S.-U.K. relationship reached new heights because of cooperation on Iraq and in the larger war on terror. But that had a lot to do with the relationship between Bush and Blair. Whether anything similar will persist now that the personalities change, I don't know.
Something similar can be said about your relations with Australia.
But you know, I don't think the Aussies understand the States that well.
They love you in a way that a cross-country cousin can love you ... with the simplicity of one who only sees you every so often, when you take care to be on your best behavior, and never having to wake up beside you in bed, with your 5 a.m. shadow, your beastly snoring, your propensity towards nocturnal farting, and your morning breath.
(The same, of course, you might say of us ... though under-the-sheets twitchings of the elephant inconvenience the mouse more than the mouse will ever inconvenience Jumbo.)

 

[B_becominghorse]

(And personally, I think they can get a great deal of that back quickly. The world has always seen the U.S. on two separate tracks ... on one, a very self-willed nation, no more virtuous than any other great power, but more powerful than any of history and hence more dangerous ... and on another, an idealistic nation that often loses its way, but capable of periodic re-illumination and never fully releasing its will, not entirely self-deceptive, to be a light to the world.)

Good points, definitely, but we'll see if the old magic is still there. The assessment referring to the past is superb, but I think I am less optimistic than you because of the damage that's been done--which is more than some people are admitting. The Iraq War itself as a response to 9/11 is perhaps stupider (even granting Bush's self-anointing by God, given all the oxymoronic entanglement that immediately implies) than anything I can think of in American history. And with the various investigations that ended up only with Scooter Libby getting out of jail mostly free, and refusals to honour subpoenas, plus Supreme Court appointments McCain will want to continue, it will be continued disaster if there is a Republican win (I may adore his wife's looks, but I am not voting for her husband, even if he is 9 inches uncut...)