Who is responsible for the meltdown?

BiItalianBro

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The above scenario is common in almost every industry. Gov't and social services is the next major shoe to drop. Tax revenues are dropping so quickly that there is/will be huge layoffs and funding cuts.

P.S. You are still off on the war spending by $700 billion. You're getting closer to the actual number, tho:wink:

It is already dropping as we speak. Michigan is taking out an emergency loan to fund unemployment claims and a number of school systems are laying off teachers, MIDYEAR!!

Just wait till the Dollar free falls and hyperinflation sets in here in about three months...that's when things will get downright ugly :frown1::mad: It was bad in Argentina in the 90's...I really do not know if folks in the USA have the stomach for the cost of necessities rising 20-40% daily!
 

B_24065

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What is wrong with that? The war was largely useless and the money that could have helped the U.S.A. was thrown to the wind.

is your heart of ice? Or do you just hide that idea when you tally up the numbers, and keep the human factor out of it?

The War liberated 25,000,000 people as well as removed one the most oppressive dictators in history. I think calling this war "useless" is a pretty "icy" thing to say.
 

lucky8

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Lol the war was strictly for oil, not "Iraqi Freedom". The Bush admin had it drawn up before they even stepped into office...but that's a completely different thread
 

B_24065

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It should be no surprise the 'pro-business Republicans' now are fleeing the scene of the crime. The entire 'get Washington out of the way mentality' has literally capsized. Meanwhile back-at-the-ranch the perpetrators golden parachutes have deployed as expected and can barely spell foreclosure as they jet away to their Caribbean winter getaway on St Barts.


You obviously dont read news papers or watch news other than John stewart.
 

B_24065

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What a piece of bullshit. No doubt Gramm played a part in this whole thing. But to insinuate that this guy is "the culprit" is fucking retarded. Theres a long list of guys, mostly from the left-side of the isle, that should join gramm in accepting this honor. I personally thinks its both parties faults...The dems for causing it, and the republicans for not stopping it.

Also, the guy in this video is a notorious leftist and you shouldnt expect us to buy his shit anymore than us "rightwingers" would expect you to believe a video made by Rush Limbaugh
 

B_24065

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Lol the war was strictly for oil, not "Iraqi Freedom". The Bush admin had it drawn up before they even stepped into office...but that's a completely different thread

Oil? What oil? I havent seen any oil. Have you?

The truth is your fucking mindless libtard that believes every you here from your kool-aid drinking friends, Dispite what every last fucking piece of evidence suggests.
 

3664shaken

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Some smart guy

Isn't that a oxymoron?

.... please respond with a post connecting the dots so I get an accurate picture of how we got to where we are now (hopefully without cheap political bashing!)

Thanks. Will


A History Lesson of the CRA and our current crises. Part 1

"Four federal agencies enforce the
CRA, a banking regulation whose original purpose of encouraging homeownership among the poor was well-intended. Abused by the Clinton administration, however, the act triggered the subprime crisis by relaxing lending standards across both the primary and secondary mortgage markets."

IBDeditorials.com: Editorials, Political Cartoons, and Polls from Investor's Business Daily -- CRA Defenses Sound More Like CYA

A top economic digest says:

"It strains credulity for top regulators to now say the
CRA had "absolutely nothing" to do with the subprime crisis. It smacks of political spin and bureaucratic CYA."


In 1992 the Community Reinvestment Act (
CRA) was changed, again. This time it legally required lenders to "lend" money to unqualified candidates in the hopes of obtaining "fairness" and "equality”.

The lenders were of course aghast at this Act, viewing it as having an un-stabilizing effect and potentially very dangerous. HSBC's CEO who has been excoriated by the media called this "toxic credit" which could bring down the whole financial system in 15 years; he stated that in late 1992, with some pretty accurate foresight I might add. Barney Frank led the charge grilling him and attacking him as a rasicst. Nevertheless, the law was passed and but the lenders were reluctant to follow it.

Not surprisingly then, ACORN, whom, worked to help pass this law got involved and used Saul-Alinsky-style tactics to make sure that lenders were following through. They picketed CEO's and Bank Presidents homes accusing them of racism etc. So with this added pressure along with the guarantee that quasi-governmental Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac will purchase these sub-prime loans the lenders went along, with the law.

"ACORN came into existence after Congress passed the Community Redevelopment Act in 1977. The
CRA's objective was to encourage banks to make home loans to higher-risk borrowers. ACORN became what it claims is the nation's largest "grassroots" organization. Its specialty in many cities was to pressure banks into dramatically loosening their lending criteria.
Its tactics included occupying bankers' offices, picketing their homes and filling lobbies with platoons of chanters. Madeline Talbott, the longtime leader of ACORN's
Chicago operations and an early political supporter of Barack Obama, honed disruption tactics to a sharp point."
Web Page Under Construction

"The 1990 ACORN convention in
Chicago focused on the fast-breaking housing campaign. It featured a squatting demonstration at an RTC house. Later, ACORN members demanded cooperation from banks about providing loan data on low- and moderate-income communities and compliance with the 1977 Community Reinvestment Act (CRA).
ACORN fought weakening of the
CRA in 1991, staging a two-day takeover of the House Banking Committee hearing room. It also established ACORN Housing Corporation to service people moving into homes under the housing campaign, rehabilitated hundreds of houses addressed by CRA.
The ACORN convention in
New York in 1992, called the "ACORN-Bank Summit", was organized to make deals with giant banks. When Citibank, the nation's largest bank, did not participate conventioneers protested at its downtown Manhattan headquarters, and won a meeting to negotiate for similar programs."

Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The irony of course, is that ACORN is now speaking out against "predatory lending", a plan THEY helped implement.

With the banks being forced by the
CRA to fund these high-risk loans, that left the banks were in a quandary, they could NOT resell these loans due to the high risk involved with them, so once again, in 1995 the Community Reinvestment Act (CRA) was revised to allow for the securitization of CRA loans into the secondary market for mortgages. Along with that Mr. Cisneros of the Clinton administration loosened mortgage restrictions so first-time buyers could qualify for loans they could never get before.

"In a more aggressive pursuit of "social justice," the
Clinton administration revised the CRA in April 1995 to mandate that banks pass lending tests in "underserved" communities and suffer tough new sanctions for failing to make enough loans there.
According to the language of the new
Clinton regs, banks that used "innovative or flexible lending practices" to address the credit needs of low-income borrowers passed the test. Banks with poor CRA ratings were hit with stiff fines and blocked from expanding their operations. Soon, "flexible" lending became the norm, and banks used subprime loans, which charge higher interest rates, to cover the added risk.
But it wasn't enough. So
Clinton ordered HUD to pressure Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac to buy the higher-risk loans from private banks and lenders, while adopting the same "flexible" credit standards. By 2000, HUD had mandated that low-income mortgages - including CRA-related loans - make up half of their portfolios.
To further spread the risk,
Clinton legalized the securitization of such mortgages. In 1997, Bear Sterns securitized the first CRA loans - $385 million worth, all guaranteed by Freddie Mac. Thus began the massive bundling of subprime mortgages that wound up poisoning the entire industry.
The cause and effect is clear. As ex-Fed chief Alan Greenspan recently testified: "It's instructive to go back to the early stages of the subprime market, which has essentially emerged out of the
CRA."
It strains credulity for top regulators to now say the
CRA had "absolutely nothing" to do with the subprime crisis. It smacks of political spin and bureaucratic CYA."

IBDeditorials.com: Editorials, Political Cartoons, and Polls from Investor's Business Daily -- CRA Defenses Sound More Like CYA

The last part of the perfect storm is that capital requirements favor private mortgage securities. Those securities, even when backed by high-risk mortgages, can obtain attractive risk ratings from credit rating agencies through use of tranches that only are subject to losses if a substantial proportion of loans go into default.

FDIC capital regulations give a lower risk weight to highly-rated mortgage securities, which may be backed by loans with little or no down payment, than to loans originated within the bank with down payments of up to 40 percent.

If capital requirements were identical between banks and Freddie/Fannie, then it is unlikely that Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae would have grown to dominate the mortgage market. It was the reduction of the capital requirements, necessary to implement the
CRA that allowed mortgage backed securities to become highly lucrative, yet highly risky investments.

I've said it before, I am a centrist, so I don't accept dogmatic ideologies, it's your choice now, do you wish to keep your patently false ideologically driven talking points or do you wish to join the reality based crowd????
 

3664shaken

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A History Lesson of the CRA and our current crises. Part 2


With the banks being forced by the CRA to fund these high-risk loans, that left the banks were in a quandary, they could NOT resell these loans due to the high risk involved with them, so once again, in 1995 the Community Reinvestment Act (CRA) was revised to allow for the securitization of CRA loans into the secondary market for mortgages. Along with that Mr. Cisneros of the Clinton administration loosened mortgage restrictions so first-time buyers could qualify for loans they could never get before.

"In a more aggressive pursuit of "social justice," the Clinton administration revised the CRA in April 1995 to mandate that banks pass lending tests in "underserved" communities and suffer tough new sanctions for failing to make enough loans there.
According to the language of the new Clinton regs, banks that used "innovative or flexible lending practices" to address the credit needs of low-income borrowers passed the test. Banks with poor CRA ratings were hit with stiff fines and blocked from expanding their operations. Soon, "flexible" lending became the norm, and banks used subprime loans, which charge higher interest rates, to cover the added risk.
But it wasn't enough. So Clinton ordered HUD to pressure Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac to buy the higher-risk loans from private banks and lenders, while adopting the same "flexible" credit standards. By 2000, HUD had mandated that low-income mortgages - including CRA-related loans - make up half of their portfolios.
To further spread the risk, Clinton legalized the securitization of such mortgages. In 1997, Bear Sterns securitized the first CRA loans - $385 million worth, all guaranteed by Freddie Mac. Thus began the massive bundling of subprime mortgages that wound up poisoning the entire industry.
The cause and effect is clear. As ex-Fed chief Alan Greenspan recently testified: "It's instructive to go back to the early stages of the subprime market, which has essentially emerged out of the CRA."
It strains credulity for top regulators to now say the CRA had "absolutely nothing" to do with the subprime crisis. It smacks of political spin and bureaucratic CYA."

http://www.ibdeditorials.com/IBDArticles.aspx?id=313718923222067

The last part of the perfect storm is that capital requirements favor private mortgage securities. Those securities, even when backed by high-risk mortgages, can obtain attractive risk ratings from credit rating agencies through use of tranches that only are subject to losses if a substantial proportion of loans go into default.

FDIC capital regulations give a lower risk weight to highly-rated mortgage securities, which may be backed by loans with little or no down payment, than to loans originated within the bank with down payments of up to 40 percent.

If capital requirements were identical between banks and Freddie/Fannie, then it is unlikely that Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae would have grown to dominate the mortgage market. It was the reduction of the capital requirements, necessary to implement the CRA that allowed mortgage backed securities to become highly lucrative, yet highly risky investments.

The house of cards came tumbling down when interest rates began to rise, forcing many of these loan holders to see their ARM payments increase. When they could no longer afford to make payments the house of cards started to tumble. At first the numbers were nominal and the investments were able to handle the losses, however as the foreclosed homes began hitting the market they started a small erosion in the current price of houses. Many people who bought houses for investments and were making 10-20% a year were now stuck with several homes and beginning to get upside down on them. And then it began to snowball.

So what happened first was a massive devaluation in the investment houses, since they were the holders of these tranches. Trillions of dollars of so-called safe investments were no longer safe; in many cases they were liquidating them for 20 cents on the dollar.

Many of the banks were hurt because they do had invested in these, so the money they had to loan was now used to cover these losses. Banks that had money to lend stopped lending to other banks, fearing that they would never see their loans paid back and a credit freeze started.

Our economy has fundamentally changed from one of manufacturing to one of service and consumerism, as people saw their mortgage payments rise they had less discretionary income so they stopped or reduced spending. As more and more people spent less then stores needed less merchandise and less employees.

Businesses that were already highly leveraged (circuit city for example) saw their sales begin to drop. Their whole economic model was that they could only make loan payments if the brought in X amount of dollars, and for them to do that they needed increasing sales but instead they were hit with decreasing sales.

I hope that connects the dots in a very brief and easy way.
 

mindseye

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You've already posted that faux 'history lesson' (it's an editorial!) here.

Cutting and pasting is a lot easier than thinking and writing, isn't it?
 

lucky8

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Oil? What oil? I havent seen any oil. Have you?

The truth is your fucking mindless libtard that believes every you here from your kool-aid drinking friends, Dispite what every last fucking piece of evidence suggests.

Kool-aid drinking liberal? I thought you were the black guy...

...anyone that knows anything about the world knows that oil is currently the most precious resource on the planet. Being that our country is the highest consumer of the commodity, yet we only have around 2-3% of the world's known oil reserves, it seems logical that anyone in power of our Empire would need to make it priority #1 to ensure oil imports maintain a low cost in order to keep our oil-based economy thriving. Being that oil is a NATURAL RESOURCE, there is a limited supply. Once it's gone, it's gone...and the Bush family knows this. They are, afterall, an oil family...I think they have a pretty good grasp on the concept of making their commodity last long enough for mankind to develop of renewable energy source and to make a decent profit off of it.

The whole "don't drill in ANWR" thing isn't about saving the fucking polar bears. Now THOSE are the media fed libtards. The reason we can't "Drill baby drill" is because we need to preserve OUR OWN oil reserves and let the rest of the world run dry. That way, when oil is skyrocketing above $300 a barrel and the world is in chaos, we can open our wells, use our reserves for ourselves if we have not found a renewable energy source, and if we have found one, export the oil we have strategically saved to countries who are in dire need and further increase our GDP. It's not a conspiracy, it's called strategic management for limited resources. Open a fucking business book.

Oh, and watch this interview...ignore the retarded edited stuff though...fast forward to 30 second mark to see the interview, it's with the Sec. of Treasury 2001-2003...this man isn't lying...he has nothing to gain from it. Why can't people put 2 and 2 together and understand the Bush Jr. was trying to do what Bush Sr. couldn't?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inyCkCvqRO0
 
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3664shaken

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You've already posted that faux 'history lesson' (it's an editorial!) here.

Cutting and pasting is a lot easier than thinking and writing, isn't it?

Actually I wrote it and yes I did post it there too, since it was germane to that discussion also. I duly noted in quotations the relevant quotes from a variety of sources. I'm sorry if giving the actual sources irritates you, but I deal with facts not opinion.

And actually it's all easily verifiable history, sorry if the truth does not fit well with your alternate reality. That is not my fault, either you can accept reality or live in denial, the choice is yours. :smile:
 

lucky8

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LOL the CRA...ya, technically you could link everything to that, but the entire financial industry completely abused and misused the system already put in place in the 80's...creating bonds backed by the bet that another bond would default...it had to end sometime
 

B_starinvestor

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Lucky8, you are a smart guy, but you really missed this one. Bigtime. The U.S. reserves are substantial. The mid-east providers of the oil supply will have huge, huge problems within the next ten years. Beyond that, they have nothing to export. Dubai is transforming their economy to a resort economy becuase they know that when their oil reserves dry up they have nothing. But they are being proactive.

To say the Bush family is an oil family is to be a young person with highly liberal influences.

This is no offense to you, but that is extremely ignorant and typical of something a student would say due to their influences.

The Dick Cheney - Halliburton stuff is embarrassing, too. If you do some research on it you'll get it.
 

Guy-jin

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Had to pull the heartstring card, didn't you?

You mistake the heartstring card for the common sense card.

Thousands of dead young American men means thousands of years worth of productivity flushed down the drain.

I'm not trying to convince you to shed a tear for dead Americans.

I'm just stating things in terms that do seem important to you: Assuming about 40 years of productivity from the over 4000 Americans that died in Iraq, the war you insist didn't "cost" as much as people say it did lost America about 160,000 years of individual productivity.

You want to count coppers, do it completely.

As for heartstrings?

After you do it, why don't you send a hand-written letter to the family of every dead veteran and tell them exactly how much you thought their soldier's life was worth.

Breaking down the War to dollars and cents.

That's what I call a "class act".
 

lucky8

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Are you trying to say the Bush family is not an oil family? Because I'm pretty sure, no, I am 100% certain that before buying the Rangers, they had a research and exploration company they ran for years before selling to Harken...don't misread me, I'm not saying the Bush family is trying to make a profit, I'm saying they are setting America up to make a lot of money in the future. Call me ignorant, don't care. 50 years from now when this starts happening, I'm confident I'll be vindicated
 

B_starinvestor

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You mistake the heartstring card for the common sense card.

Thousands of dead young American men means thousands of years worth of productivity flushed down the drain.

I'm not trying to convince you to shed a tear for dead Americans.

I'm just stating things in terms that do seem important to you: Assuming about 40 years of productivity from the over 4000 Americans that died in Iraq, the war you insist didn't "cost" as much as people say it did lost America about 160,000 years of individual productivity.

You want to count coppers, do it completely.

As for heartstrings?

After you do it, why don't you send a hand-written letter to the family of every dead veteran and tell them exactly how much you thought their soldier's life was worth.

Breaking down the War to dollars and cents.

That's what I call a "class act".

Huh. It's funny that you lecture me on this, you fucking dick. I've lost two grandfathers, an uncle and a best friend in wars. Don't even go down this road with me.

Don't fucking lecture me on sacrifice and imply that I evaluate the war on dollars and cents. I could give two fucks about money, and maybe you ought re-evaluate your fucking perception and appreciation of freedom.

Don't throw that 'class act' shit in my face again, asshole.
 
D

deleted15807

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You obviously dont read news papers or watch news other than John stewart.

The good news is YOU LOST!!!:biggrin1: And we can thank John Stewart for cutting through the corporate approved broadcasts that serve as 'news'.
 

D_Ireonsyd_Colonrinse

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starinvestor (to Guy-jin): "Don't fucking lecture me on sacrifice and imply that I evaluate the war on dollars and cents. I could give two fucks about money, and maybe you ought re-evaluate your fucking perception and appreciation of freedom."

--------------------


Star, as I'm sure you know, there's a growing body of criticism now that suggests that Iraq has not made us any "safer", so why should I (or anybody) jump onto your soapbox to "appreciate freedom" when the concept of freedom has little or nothing to do the Iraqi adventure?


Has made us less safe, has created more terrorists, has fueled terrorism.

The Iraq war has helped recruit "supporters for the global jihadist movement," the 2006 U.S. National Intelligence Estimate says.

Whether we leave Iraq tomorrow or next year or 2011, there is still a reservoir of hatred out there among not just the jihadist extremists, but also among muslim moderates. Remember, pre-emptively invading their country was a mistake, partially owned up to by GWB himself.


From the Associated Press, October, 2004:


Bush, Cheney admit Iraq had no WMD, take new tack

They cite oil-for-food scam as justification for invasion
By Scott Lindlaw

ASSOCIATED PRESS
October 8, 2004

WASHINGTON – President Bush and his vice president conceded yesterday in the clearest terms yet that Saddam Hussein had no weapons of mass destruction, trying to shift the Iraq war debate to a new issue – whether the invasion was justified because Hussein was abusing a U.N. oil-for-food program.

Bush's response was his first reaction to a report released Wednesday by Charles Duelfer, the CIA's top weapons inspector, that contradicted the White House's main argument for invading Iraq.

Ridiculing the Bush administration's evolving rationale for war, Democratic presidential candidate Sen. John Kerry said, "You don't make up or find reasons to go to war after the fact."

--------------------

Later, Bush would say that it didn't matter if Iraq had WMD or not, because Iraq had now "become the central front on the war on terror". But what good does having a "central front" do -- when you end up creating more terrorists than you destroy?
 
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B_starinvestor

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starinvestor (to Guy-jin): "Don't fucking lecture me on sacrifice and imply that I evaluate the war on dollars and cents. I could give two fucks about money, and maybe you ought re-evaluate your fucking perception and appreciation of freedom."

--------------------


Star, as I'm sure you know, there's a growing body of criticism now that suggests that Iraq has not made us any "safer", so why should I (or anybody) jump onto your soapbox to "appreciate freedom" when the concept of freedom has little or nothing to do the Iraqi adventure?


Has made us less safe, has created more terrorists, has fueled terrorism.

The Iraq war has helped recruit "supporters for the global jihadist movement," the 2006 U.S. National Intelligence Estimate says.

Whether we leave Iraq tomorrow or next year or 2011, there is still a reservoir of hatred out there among not just the jihadist extremists, but also among muslim moderates. Remember, pre-emptively invading their country was a mistake, partially owned up to by GWB himself.


From the Associated Press, October, 2004:


Bush, Cheney admit Iraq had no WMD, take new tack

They cite oil-for-food scam as justification for invasion
By Scott Lindlaw

ASSOCIATED PRESS
October 8, 2004

WASHINGTON – President Bush and his vice president conceded yesterday in the clearest terms yet that Saddam Hussein had no weapons of mass destruction, trying to shift the Iraq war debate to a new issue – whether the invasion was justified because Hussein was abusing a U.N. oil-for-food program.

Bush's response was his first reaction to a report released Wednesday by Charles Duelfer, the CIA's top weapons inspector, that contradicted the White House's main argument for invading Iraq.

Ridiculing the Bush administration's evolving rationale for war, Democratic presidential candidate Sen. John Kerry said, "You don't make up or find reasons to go to war after the fact."

--------------------

Later, Bush would say that it didn't matter if Iraq had WMD or not, because Iraq had now "become the central front on the war on terror". But what good does having a "central front" do -- when you end up creating more terrorists than you destroy?

At some point, you need to develop beliefs and values on your own volition and not from the NYTimes, WT.

As you subscribe to the liberal ideology in every aspect, I am likely wasting my time debating you on this issue.

Mankind, history, the formation of nations...none have been conceived in a liberal ideology. None. I understand where you and several others stand..and largely your beliefs are relevant and upstanding...but in the existence of societies and the survival of nations...your values don't survive.

That's not to say they are wrong, but those societies don't survive. Look at the animal kingdom. In nature, the the wounded deer is prey for the predator. I feel sorry for the deer. You feel sorry for the deer. But the deer will never have a say in nature.

We can mourn for the weak and plea for the rights of the weak, but our society will be dominated by the lion if we submit to those emotions.

I feel for the prey as you do, but we can either submit to the predator, or hold strong against them. I don't want to be the gazelle. And neither did our forefathers.
 

pym

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At some point, you need to develop beliefs and values on your own volition and not from the NYTimes, WT.

As you subscribe to the liberal ideology in every aspect, I am likely wasting my time debating you on this issue.

Mankind, history, the formation of nations...none have been conceived in a liberal ideology. None. I understand where you and several others stand..and largely your beliefs are relevant and upstanding...but in the existence of societies and the survival of nations...your values don't survive.

That's not to say they are wrong, but those societies don't survive. Look at the animal kingdom. In nature, the the wounded deer is prey for the predator. I feel sorry for the deer. You feel sorry for the deer. But the deer will never have a say in nature.

We can mourn for the weak and plea for the rights of the weak, but our society will be dominated by the lion if we submit to those emotions.

I feel for the prey as you do, but we can either submit to the predator, or hold strong against them. I don't want to be the gazelle. And neither did our forefathers.
YOU ARE SO FULL OF SHIT.
Why don't you put up or shut up......and join the military for a hitch yourself?
Other People you SAY you know had there OWN individual services to their country.
Those services were NOT yours......
Call me an.......Honorably Discharged 4 year veteran of the US NAVY 1980-1984.
YOU BLOWHARD SCHMUCK.