Who is to blame if you aren't successful?

Fuzzy_

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I work for a mechanical contractor myself.

The biggest problem we have in finding qualified help of any age is people can't pass a simple drug test, no drivers license or both.

This has happened over and over from young to old. Oh you should hear some of their sob stories.

We had an older guy come in the other day and we were going to hire him. He really seemed to know his stuff and had worked for 1 company the last 15 years, something you don't see much these days. Sent him for a piss test and he comes up positive for meth. Do you think we hired this guy, hell no! Seems people put there habits before their careers these days.

"Sob stories." That's a common phrase from selfish, elitist conservatives.

It's amazing how people refuse good workers just because of their own moral hang-ups.

It's no wonder these people stay poor when guys like you refuse them a job because they don't have a drivers license.

So, you were essentially saying that you became a success because you worked hard, but now you're saying that it's just fine to deny a job to somebody who is willing to work hard.

BTW, Fuzzy is an employer too. Most of this is outsourced and Fuzzy has never met many of these people. Fuzzy couldn't care less if they smoke crack all day, just as long as they finish the deliverables on time and do a good job (which they do). Unlike you, Fuzzy cares more about the quality of the product going to the client than whether or not he agrees with their lifestyle choices or have a driver's license.

Would you prefer to hire a raging alcoholic than somebody who smoked meth once?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment

^ We live in a very retributive society where people who are immature and are given a position of power tend to abuse that position, whether it's managers, employers, prison guards, police officers, foreign 'freedom' fighters. Refusing good work to good people for petty reasons and then bragging about it seems like a sadistic sport.

If you're claiming that you were about to hire a person with good job experience and a good education, but then denied him that job just because you didn't like an aspect of his lifestyle, it smacks of sadism. Should their kids have to starve because you don't like his lifestyle choices?

Oh yeah......the failed drug tests. You nailed the other problem, hypoc8! I don't know how many times I've told an applicant that they would be taking a drug test before hire. "Oh....no problem, I'm totally clean!", only to have them fail the drug test :slap:

It seems like you're more of a welfare creator than a job creator, but you'll still complain about 'welfare rats' and their 'sob stories', no doubt. It's an odd sport.

The next time you blame the poor for their poverty or unemployment, Fuzzy will remember this post and "how many times" you've refused work to someone. Does it rival the number of times you've complained about the poor?

Pathetic.
 
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sbat

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Fuzzy, as someone who enjoys marijuana myself, yet also owns a businesses and manages $multimillion projects, I understand that people can use responsibly (just like drinking responsibly). The other side of the coin is that outside of marijuana, most illegal drugs get out of your system in a relatively short time frame, within a few days. So for people who use those drugs, a screen is a litmus test for your ability to just get your shit together. It's no different from meeting a deadline - show up at this time and date clean of any drugs. Now, if you have someone show up with dirty pee, and more importantly, they are using meth, there are some serious questions about future reliability. I'm sorry, but I have never met a person who "casually" smoked meth without it disrupting their ability to be a functional human being in the long-term. Same goes for heroin. Those are just highly addictive drugs that destroy you. It's not a matter of morals, its science. Hiring someone who fails a drug screen with those drugs is just a poor business investment and decision.

And again, as a habitual consumer of marijuana, I have gone through many drug screens for past jobs, and have never failed. So yes, any story trying to justify why you peed dirty when you knew you had drug screens upcoming is a sob story - doing drugs when you know you'll get tested means you don't have your shit together, and it shows self-destructive tendencies.

"Sob stories." That's a common phrase from selfish, elitist conservatives.

It's amazing how people refuse good workers just because of their own moral hang-ups.

It's no wonder these people stay poor when guys like you refuse them a job because they don't have a drivers license.

So, you were essentially saying that you became a success because you worked hard, but now you're saying that it's just fine to deny a job to somebody who is willing to work hard.

BTW, Fuzzy is an employer too. Most of this is outsourced and Fuzzy has never met many of these people. Fuzzy couldn't care less if they smoke crack all day, just as long as they finish the deliverables on time and do a good job (which they do). Unlike you, Fuzzy care's more about the quality of the product than whether the hell somebody smoked meth. Seriously?

Stanford prison experiment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

^ We live in a very retributive society where people who are immature and are given a position of power tend to abuse that position, whether it's managers, employers, prison guards, police officers, foreign 'freedom' fighters. Douchebaggery is a choice.

If you're claiming that you were about to hire a person with good job experience and a good education, but then denied him that job just because you didn't like an aspect of his lifestyle, it smacks of sadism. Should kids have to starve because you don't like his lifestyle choices?



It seems like you're more of a welfare creator than a job creator, but you'll still complain about 'welfare rats' and their 'sob stories', no doubt. It's an odd sport.

The next time you blame the poor for their poverty or unemployment, Fuzzy will remember this post and "how many times" you've refused work to someone.

Pathetic.
 

sbat

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Also Fuzzy, I outsource too. And I make sure to give myself leverage in my contract terms to drop contracts when they don't deliver on time and to quality. I don't care the reason, I don't care if you need a break. If I am developing a technology for patient care, the patients aren't going to care that the contractor was going through a coke binge in order to deal with some personal thing. I will not support the attitude that the whole world needs to stop because I have a problem. The world moves on, and it's my job if I want to survive to get my shit together and march on as well.

Fuzzy, as someone who enjoys marijuana myself, yet also owns a businesses and manages $multimillion projects, I understand that people can use responsibly (just like drinking responsibly). The other side of the coin is that outside of marijuana, most illegal drugs get out of your system in a relatively short time frame, within a few days. So for people who use those drugs, a screen is a litmus test for your ability to just get your shit together. It's no different from meeting a deadline - show up at this time and date clean of any drugs. Now, if you have someone show up with dirty pee, and more importantly, they are using meth, there are some serious questions about future reliability. I'm sorry, but I have never met a person who "casually" smoked meth without it disrupting their ability to be a functional human being in the long-term. Same goes for heroin. Those are just highly addictive drugs that destroy you. It's not a matter of morals, its science. Hiring someone who fails a drug screen with those drugs is just a poor business investment and decision.

And again, as a habitual consumer of marijuana, I have gone through many drug screens for past jobs, and have never failed. So yes, any story trying to justify why you peed dirty when you knew you had drug screens upcoming is a sob story - doing drugs when you know you'll get tested means you don't have your shit together, and it shows self-destructive tendencies.
 

hypoc8

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"Sob stories." That's a common phrase from selfish, elitist conservatives.

It's amazing how people refuse good workers just because of their own moral hang-ups.

It's no wonder these people stay poor when guys like you refuse them a job because they don't have a drivers license.

So, you were essentially saying that you became a success because you worked hard, but now you're saying that it's just fine to deny a job to somebody who is willing to work hard.

BTW, Fuzzy is an employer too. Most of this is outsourced and Fuzzy has never met many of these people. Fuzzy couldn't care less if they smoke crack all day, just as long as they finish the deliverables on time and do a good job (which they do). Unlike you, Fuzzy cares more about the quality of the product going to the client than whether or not he agrees with their lifestyle choices or have a driver's license.

Would you prefer to hire a raging alcoholic than somebody who smoked meth once?

Stanford prison experiment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

^ We live in a very retributive society where people who are immature and are given a position of power tend to abuse that position, whether it's managers, employers, prison guards, police officers, foreign 'freedom' fighters. Refusing good work to good people for petty reasons and then bragging about it seems like a sadistic sport.

If you're claiming that you were about to hire a person with good job experience and a good education, but then denied him that job just because you didn't like an aspect of his lifestyle, it smacks of sadism. Should their kids have to starve because you don't like his lifestyle choices?



It seems like you're more of a welfare creator than a job creator, but you'll still complain about 'welfare rats' and their 'sob stories', no doubt. It's an odd sport.

The next time you blame the poor for their poverty or unemployment, Fuzzy will remember this post and "how many times" you've refused work to someone. Does it rival the number of times you've complained about the poor?

Pathetic.

Company policy is you have to have a valid drivers license, period. They are told this upfront. Also they are asked if they can pass a drug test upfront. We don't want to knowingly waste money on a lab test if we know the person is dirty. What would the point be?

Normally we have the lab do a hair strand test but on occasions we only have them do a pee test, have no idea what would have been found if this guy had a hair strand done.

It has nothing to do with moral hang-ups, it's about keeping drug users from hurting themselves and others on the jobsite because there coming off a weekend bender.

You'll care when one of your weekend crack smokers ends up killing or hurting someone and you get sued.
 

sbat

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Company policy is you have to have a valid drivers license, period. They are told this upfront. Also they are asked if they can pass a drug test upfront. We don't want to knowingly waste money on a lab test if we know the person is dirty. What would the point be?

Normally we have the lab do a hair strand test but on occasions we only have them do a pee test, have no idea what would have been found if this guy had a hair strand done.

It has nothing to do with moral hang-ups, it's about keeping drug users from hurting themselves and others on the jobsite because there coming off a weekend bender.

You'll care when one of your weekend crack smokers ends up killing or hurting someone and you get sued.

But hey, at least he'll have the moral high ground.
 

Dakota Kid

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It seems like you're more of a welfare creator than a job creator, but you'll still complain about 'welfare rats' and their 'sob stories', no doubt. It's an odd sport.

The next time you blame the poor for their poverty or unemployment, Fuzzy will remember this post and "how many times" you've refused work to someone. Does it rival the number of times you've complained about the poor?

Pathetic.
Fuzzy......you ought to get your facts straight regarding the construction industry before you start the pathetic shit :rolleyes: Probably 75% of the projects we work on require all my jobsite employees to have been drug tested within the last 30 days to 6 months. And many of those are state or federal projects. Yep......the same gov't you are so in love with require this of my employees to set foot on a jobsite. So tell me Fuzzy.....would you be that dense to hire someone to work for you that can't pass a piss test, knowing they couldn't work on 75% of your jobsites? :twak: If so, you wouldn't last the week working for me. And before you jump to any more fuzzy conclusions, I am one who believes drugs should be legalized. I don't do them, but it should be a legal personal choice, should you decide you want to. But......and it's a big BUT......if you're gonna play in the construction industry......you gotta play by the rules. And the current rules require drug testing.

.
 

sbat

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I find that the more one actually understands the ins and outs of running a business in an industry, the less moralistic one becomes in honest political debate. Mostly because moral high ground doesn't put bread on the table, or keep a business afloat. Too much nuance to being pragmatic and actually getting shit done...

Fuzzy......you ought to get your facts straight regarding the construction industry before you start the pathetic shit :rolleyes: Probably 75% of the projects we work on require all my jobsite employees to have been drug tested within the last 30 days to 6 months. And many of those are state or federal projects. Yep......the same gov't you are so in love with require this of my employees to set foot on a jobsite. So tell me Fuzzy.....would you be that dense to hire someone to work for you that can't pass a piss test, knowing they couldn't work on 75% of your jobsites? :twak: If so, you wouldn't last the week working for me. And before you jump to any more fuzzy conclusions, I am one who believes drugs should be legalized. I don't do them, but it should be a legal personal choice, should you decide you want to. But......and it's a big BUT......if you're gonna play in the construction industry......you gotta play by the rules. And the current rules require drug testing.

.
 

Fuzzy_

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Company policy is you have to have a valid drivers license, period. They are told this upfront. Also they are asked if they can pass a drug test upfront. We don't want to knowingly waste money on a lab test if we know the person is dirty. What would the point be?

Normally we have the lab do a hair strand test but on occasions we only have them do a pee test, have no idea what would have been found if this guy had a hair strand done.

It has nothing to do with moral hang-ups, it's about keeping drug users from hurting themselves and others on the jobsite because there coming off a weekend bender.

You'll care when one of your weekend crack smokers ends up killing or hurting someone and you get sued.

Fuzzy......you ought to get your facts straight regarding the construction industry before you start the pathetic shit :rolleyes: Probably 75% of the projects we work on require all my jobsite employees to have been drug tested within the last 30 days to 6 months. And many of those are state or federal projects. Yep......the same gov't you are so in love with require this of my employees to set foot on a jobsite. So tell me Fuzzy.....would you be that dense to hire someone to work for you that can't pass a piss test, knowing they couldn't work on 75% of your jobsites? :twak: If so, you wouldn't last the week working for me. And before you jump to any more fuzzy conclusions, I am one who believes drugs should be legalized. I don't do them, but it should be a legal personal choice, should you decide you want to. But......and it's a big BUT......if you're gonna play in the construction industry......you gotta play by the rules. And the current rules require drug testing.

.

Fuzzy wasn't writing about your field of work -- which Fuzzy knows nothing about. Fuzzy was writing about the fact that you two complain about the poor while bragging about how many people your businesses turn away. It's hypocrisy.
 

sbat

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Fuzzy wasn't writing about your field of work -- which Fuzzy knows nothing about. Fuzzy was writing about the fact that you two complain about the poor while bragging about how many people your businesses turn away. It's hypocrisy.

To be fair, it seemed less like bragging and more chuckling over the incredibly self-defeating habits of those who apply for jobs. Showing up to a job that requires a valid driver's license without a license and expecting a job is just laughable. As is doing drugs when you know you will get drug tested. Such individuals, if given jobs despite failing to meet the incredibly low bar of job requirements, could result in the entire business being fined heavily or put out of operation altogether.

But again, hey, let's employ people who cleary lack the responsibility to work in a job environment that has high potential for liability. Many others may lose their jobs because of their irresponsibility, but at least we have the moral high ground...because moral high ground puts bread on the table more than a well-run business does...
 

Eric_8

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"Sob stories." That's a common phrase from selfish, elitist conservatives.

It's amazing how people refuse good workers just because of their own moral hang-ups.

It's no wonder these people stay poor when guys like you refuse them a job because they don't have a drivers license.

So, you were essentially saying that you became a success because you worked hard, but now you're saying that it's just fine to deny a job to somebody who is willing to work hard.

BTW, Fuzzy is an employer too. Most of this is outsourced and Fuzzy has never met many of these people. Fuzzy couldn't care less if they smoke crack all day, just as long as they finish the deliverables on time and do a good job (which they do). Unlike you, Fuzzy cares more about the quality of the product going to the client than whether or not he agrees with their lifestyle choices or have a driver's license.

Would you prefer to hire a raging alcoholic than somebody who smoked meth once?

Stanford prison experiment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

^ We live in a very retributive society where people who are immature and are given a position of power tend to abuse that position, whether it's managers, employers, prison guards, police officers, foreign 'freedom' fighters. Refusing good work to good people for petty reasons and then bragging about it seems like a sadistic sport.

If you're claiming that you were about to hire a person with good job experience and a good education, but then denied him that job just because you didn't like an aspect of his lifestyle, it smacks of sadism. Should their kids have to starve because you don't like his lifestyle choices?



It seems like you're more of a welfare creator than a job creator, but you'll still complain about 'welfare rats' and their 'sob stories', no doubt. It's an odd sport.

The next time you blame the poor for their poverty or unemployment, Fuzzy will remember this post and "how many times" you've refused work to someone. Does it rival the number of times you've complained about the poor?

Pathetic.

Fuzzy, there's no way to logic your stance into the right here...nothing to do with elitist conservatives, and everything to do with reasonable expectations.

Unless you develop contracts that are extremely unfriendly to employees, you're asking for trouble by not having certain expectations and requirements put forth.
 

hypoc8

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Fuzzy wasn't writing about your field of work -- which Fuzzy knows nothing about. Fuzzy was writing about the fact that you two complain about the poor while bragging about how many people your businesses turn away. It's hypocrisy.

I don't know that I've complained about the poor. There are always going to be poor people, some by choice and others by circumstance.

I've never bragged about how many people my company has "turned away" as you call it because they can't pass a simple drug test. It simply boggles my mind how these people expect to get a job while using illegal drugs.

I don't feel sorry for people that make stupid choices and then blame others for their problems.
 

D_Ida_Ho

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Kind of laughable when people talk about there being no moral high ground in business, then when they themselves are robbed blind by someone in a higher position then they squeal on and on about morality. Now granted, some don't. Some just commit suicide, murder or general go the way of screwing over the next person.

Not having your shit together is one thing. Having someone hinder your success because "you're just too old" is something else entirely. Just about anything could hinder a person's success these day's. And i say these day's because really, people are finding wilder ways to screw each other over.

Such as age, race, sex, religious affiliation, ideology, credit score, background history, net worth, disability (mental/physical), national origin, pregnancy (or just plain having children), genetic information, relationship to someone who is being or has been discriminated against, marital status.

These things are the very definition of someone with success keeping others from gaining success.

As far as poverty and the poor goes. I have to ask. How much are they costing you anyway? Versus large corporations making large mistakes that you then have to pay for in tax dollars, unemployment and oh welfare. As in the more people a company lays off or cuts hours. The more people have to depend on assistance programs. As in the rich are creating more and more poor people for the express reason of keeping money.

As in less competition, more money.