Who repressed Americas locker rooms?

Discussion in 'Relationships, Discrimination, and Jealousy' started by mavedick, Jun 21, 2005.

  1. mavedick

    mavedick New Member

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    Whenever the topic of nudity among males in such settings as locker rooms, gym showers, etc. comes up in these forums (as it often does), it is commonly reported that the practice is declining rapidly among the younger generation in the USA. It is stated that many of our youth now routinely avoid the gym showers at school, and that it's largely the older men who parade nude around locker rooms at public gyms. These reports often precipitate posts blaming this newfound American modesty or neo-Puritanism on Christians, the religious right, etc. As a Christian, I beg to differ in this post. Your comments will then be welcome.

    Those who know the Bible know that Jesus, right after the Last Supper with twelve other males, "laid aside his garments," girded Himself with a towel, washed the disciples' feet, and dried them with the towel (John 13:4-5). After His resurrection, His burial clothes were found left in the tomb (Luke 24:12; John 20:6). Peter fished naked with six other disciples (John 21:7), which was then the custom for fishermen in boats. In the Old Testament, the prophet Isaiah went nude in public for three years as a sign from God (Isaiah 20:2-3). There are other examples, but I spare you.

    So, in the Bible, nudity is innocent enough under appropriate circumstances. The modern problem occurs when people confuse innocent nudity with sexuality. Fifty years ago, most boys grew up with brothers, and they learned about the male body from one another. American males were used to nudity with others in locker rooms, gym showers, college dorms, the military, swimming, etc. Being naked with the guys was a "guy thing." There was virtually no sexuality in the media then, so there was no reason to confuse nudity with sexuality.

    Today, everything is totally different. Most boys are either only children or only sons, so they don't have brothers. Many don't even have a father in the home. They are left to learn about the male body and being a man from the media, which present a warped view designed to sell things--often sex itself. Sexuality is everywhere today, and innocent nudity is increasingly rare. Any boy who can reach a computer can find porn, and adolescent males undoubtedly find their share--both heterosexual and homosexual. The constant media messages are these: (1) Nudity equals sex. (2) Nudity with other males is gay. (3) You just don't measure up!

    Can it be any wonder that today's teen males are increasingly loath to be naked in one another's presence? There are very few male bastions left in American society--not even the military--and "guy things" just aren't politically correct anymore. It is truly a sad state!

    Now, I will admit that some well-meaning American Christians are stuck on a Victorian view of nudity, although it is not Biblical. I do not believe for a second, though, that those folks have nearly as much influence on the vast majority of modern adolescent males as do the media. There have never been any Christian or other right-wing crusades to close down locker rooms, gym showers, men’s dorms, the military, and other places where men used to be men together. In fact, what most of you might call the self-righteous excesses of the Victorian element are typically in reaction to the excesses of the highly secular and anti-religious media. Additionally, the social and political forces acting against traditional masculine identity, bonding, and “guy things” have come from the left, not from the right (religious or otherwise).

    What think you?
     
  2. jonb

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    The media aren't really that secular. They actually have no problem with fundies now that the fundies are voting for Their Guys. 80 years ago the fundies didn't vote for Their Guys so fundies were bad. Of course, it helps to keep testing the fundies. But even then, the fundies have zeroed in on one and only one topic which doesn't appear much in the media otherwise: Namely, homosexuality.

    In addition, fundies did invent the myths of ritual satanic abuse.

    I blame three main factors:

    1. Our litigious society. Big factor.
    2. Urban legends about ritual satanic abuse. You'd be surprised how quickly they could find unscrupulous "therapists" to tell people they were raped as children and they just don't remember it.
    3. The media's love of sensational stories which don't affect their advertisers.
     
  3. BobLeeSwagger

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    So you're a Christian who thinks guys should be naked with each other more often? Something tells me this will be a popular idea here.
     
  4. BlastOff123

    BlastOff123 New Member

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    Things really have changed in the past 20 years. Men are no longer men. There are myriad reasons for this, but a lot of it is the sex on tv and movies. What teenage boy wants to be seen naked in a world that adores Tom Cruise, Brad Pitt, Keanu Reeves, and other cute young men with magnificent bodies. Then they see Tommy Lee and his longer than average dick, and boys feel inadequate. This is all well known and if you want a really good sense of how bad it is read The Adonis Complex. Then throw in the decimation of Boy Scouts and other social outlets for boys and you have a real problem. I am so sick of "sensitive" men. What ever happened to macho men? We need more General Pattons and fewer Bill Clintons. More John Waynes and fewer Alan Alda wimps. When I go to my gym the only guys who are totally infazed by being naked are the 40 and over set. The youngsters are really, really shy. Too bad.
     
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  5. TheOverlord

    TheOverlord New Member

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    I disagree thats the problem...

    I think its the recent acceptances of homosexuality, and people still fear that. Being nakid with a bunch of guys does seem homosexual, so those who detest homosexuality dont want to be confronted by it.
     
  6. mistergrasso

    mistergrasso Member

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    You're an idiot.
     
  7. Spork

    Spork New Member

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    According to all the magazine ads, the ideal man has the musculature of a competitive swimmer on the hairless body of a 13 year old. According to all the porn flicks, this man also packs 8 inches.

    This isn't a standard that many American can measure up to, especially as Americans get more and more obese.

    This standard has changed a lot over the years: remember Jim Palmer doing the magazine ads for Jockey with his hairy chest proudly on display? Now underwear comes on anonymous pouty models that could pass for 14 if they didn't have washboard abs.
     
  8. Dr Rock

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    who lives in the east 'neath the willow tree? Sex
    it's just yet another symptom of our increasingly neurotic, paranoid, pseudohypochondriac society. everyone's scared of everything.

    oh, and jesus was a fag.
     
  9. alpinepaul

    alpinepaul New Member

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    some points of mave may be true (the increased pressure of competition; the questioning of maleness, ...). on the other side, this is a situation we have in europe too. but for at least as i know, there is no increase in locker-room-shyness in europe.

    so IMO your religious right and its influence is a factor. it demonizes sexuality, scandalizes the human body (e.g. the breast of janet jackson), and the result is a higher insecurity and much more taboo.

    as for your bible-quotes: the religious right just uses the quotes they need, not the actual quotes (otherwise they would fight against cheese-and-pepperoni-pizza as anti-leviticus).
     
  10. Dude!

    Dude! New Member

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    there's no need for that is there :eyes:
     
  11. Dr Rock

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    who lives in the east 'neath the willow tree? Sex
    oh, isn't there :eyes: :eyes:
     
  12. LuckyLuke

    LuckyLuke New Member

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    Throughout history, the mores and morals of Christians have rarely ever been in direct accord with the written word of the Bible. According to the written word of the Bible, divorce is a comparatively 'greater' sin than homosexuality (or at least its equal), yet Christians clearly do not act as if this is the case. Ergo, the word of the Bible is mostly irrelevant when discussing Christian morality.

    That being said, the trend toward modesty in locker-rooms is a bit deeper than just blaming Christians or the media. It is true the USA has a long history and obsession with puritanism and this cannot be discounted - particularly in the context of cross-cultural comparisons. Particularly if it can be shown that the media is relatively constant across western borders, and if there are differences in such nudism in locker-rooms in non-US countries.
     
  13. Mr._dB

    Mr._dB New Member

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    Remember, Christianity negates the need to follow Jewish law. These Old Testament rules are irrelavent to Christians.
     
  14. ashlar

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    Well .. he did have several fag hags, a close relationship to his mother, and wouldnt bang chicks.

    Yay for happy homo jesus.

    I shall erect (hurrhurr) a statue of him, complete with Mardi Gras beads, lifting his dress up to flash the masses.
     
  15. absinthium

    absinthium New Member

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    Despite what the bible might say concerning nudity in biblical times, whenever anyone opposes nudity on television, grabs a sandwich board and sits outside a titty bar to protest, or writes their political officials to get shops selling porno mags out of their community, it's always someone affiliated with some kind of Christian group that told them to do so.

    I'd say there's a VERY strong anti-nudity campaign going on within the church these days.
     
  16. absinthium

    absinthium New Member

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    Well .. he did have several fag hags, a close relationship to his mother, and wouldnt bang chicks.

    Yay for happy homo jesus.

    I shall erect (hurrhurr) a statue of him, complete with Mardi Gras beads, lifting his dress up to flash the masses.
    [post=323072]Quoted post[/post]​
    [/b][/quote]

    When I make my "Mary Magdelene: The Original Fag Hag" t-shirts, you'll be the first to receive one. (I've been planning on it for years.)
     
  17. jonb

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    Actually, Sherman Alexie once had a scene where a guy's friend was a lesbian and her parents were less-than-thrilled. So he argued Jesus was a faggot because of "that faggy love one another shit".
     
  18. madame_zora

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    Actually, Sherman Alexie once had a scene where a guy's friend was a lesbian and her parents were less-than-thrilled. So he argued Jesus was a faggot because of "that faggy love one another shit".
    [post=323154]Quoted post[/post]​
    [/b][/quote]


    Yeah, the trend toward male pleasantness comes right from the Bible. Jesus was a nomad who travelled through the desert with a bunch of guys and a used up whore. Everybody knows this, so why then to we try to turn him into something he was not? Sure he was persecuted, he was free! Nobody likes it when someone actually lives the life they choose and encourages you to do the same.

    The judgemental attitudes of those we now know as fundies are completely antithetical, and are in fact the very things that angered Jesus about the Pharisees. But, for the love of God and all things holy, let's not discuss THAT! "Love one another shit" is now faggy, well it did come from Jesus, so I guess we could blame him.
     
  19. ashlar

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    When I make my "Mary Magdelene: The Original Fag Hag" t-shirts, you'll be the first to receive one. (I've been planning on it for years.)
    [post=323101]Quoted post[/post]​
    [/b][/quote]

    *snap-points*

    Rockin'!

    I'm all about that.
     
  20. ashlar

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    Hmmm ... Perhaps we should invent antifundimentalisim.

    The Light Christianity.
    All the flavor, half the calories of fundimentalist christianity.
     
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